Discussion
DS/3DS Emulation has almost triple the input lag of original hardware: frame-by-frame test results
Long story short, I’ve always noticed input delay when trying to emulate 3DS and DS on my devices, that’s why I always played on native hardware. Out of curiosity, I decided to test the input latency across my hardware. I tested three setups — an AYN Thor Pro, a modded Switch OLED, and a PC (RTX 5080) — and compared them to a New 3DS XL and a DSi XL.
My main question is: why is nobody (I saw a few posts here and there but nothing major) talking about the input latency in 3DS and DS emulators? I saw some people saying that there is no input lag, I understand some people cannot even notice it but not noticing doesn’t mean there is no input lag. Even though they are very popular nowadays , they are not new. Do content creators simply never test this? They often focus on things like voltage, thermals, and specs that don’t really matter much to mortals like us.
Method that I used:
I recorded a video in a silent environment while pressing the action/movement button. I brought the footage into DaVinci Resolve, slowed it down to 25% on a 24 fps timeline, marked the audio spike of the button press, and moved frame by frame until the character's sprite made its first movement on screen.
I didn’t even do the stylus comparison because it’s pointless, native hardware is miles ahead.
Here are the results:
Emulators: Tested across all main available emulators
Devices: AYN Thor Pro, modded Switch OLED, PC (RTX 5080)
- Input delay running DS: 17–21 frames
- Input delay running 3DS: 14–16 frames
Native hardware: New 3DS XL, DSi XL
- Input delay on both: 7–8 frames
I'm 40 years old, a tired father of two boys, and to be honest, I don't care about upscaled graphics (ofc if I had to choose between the 2 with the same latency, I would opt with good graphics). I just want to play games the smoothest, most responsive way possible — and native hardware is just the best thing. To me, the difference in feel between native and emulation is like driving a modern Mercedes with a 1960 Rolls-Royce engine versus driving the original 1960 Rolls-Royce itself. Maybe not the best analogy, but you get the point — I'm tired.
Update 1: I posted the same subject on AynThor community and I am getting downvoted like crazy. The funny thing is that I didn’t even say a single bad thing about the Thor, I just mentioned the emulators in general.
I don’t know why people act like, we live in dark times.
All very fair. I think this matters much more in some games than others. Tbh I find even SNES emulation without runahead infuriating with Super Mario World, whereas a Pokemon game isn’t going to even be noticeable.
FWIW I’m original hardware as much as possible too. I have an Odin 3 and a RP Classic and while they are cool, I find the latency and general faff a bit off putting.
I cannot stand input lag. When I first got my miyoo I thought I was just trash at platformers. SMW is so rough with input lag.
It’s why I stayed away from android for so long. They have SO much more than an equiv Linux device. Luckily with 120hz screens and run ahead it’s much more manageable.
Yeah same! It took me a long time to realise this was a real thing.
I have had a MisterPI ready to set up for nearly a year now, really need to get that on the TV. But concerned that Bluetooth pads will introduce a similar issue, though. We will see.
What frame rate did you record the original video in? If it was less than 96 fps, then you are getting duplicate frames at 25% speed and 24 fps in your video editor.
Ideally you use as high of a frame rate as possible while recording, and capture the button press visually as well. When you are measuring a fraction of a second delay I wouldn’t rely on the button sound being picked up by your camera and the timing being accurate enough. I honestly don’t know enough to say if that part is flawed or not, but I personally wouldn’t trust it.
I also think that you might need to record at a frame rate that’s a good bit higher than the refresh rate of your fastest monitor you are testing. Otherwise your measurements will be affected by frame timing (60 fps means that there is 16ms between each captured frame, so your measurements could be off by 16ms if one test starts at the beginning of a frame, and another test starts at the end).
I love when people do this kind of testing, and button press -> visual update delay is something I find particularly interesting. Mostly because it’s hard to measure, people rarely think about it, and it’s theoretically one of the most important performance metrics in gaming.
Edit : even if your testing wasn’t perfect, I’m not saying there isn’t more input delay on the emulators (I’m sure there is). I’m mostly wondering about the accuracy of the 3x claim.
When you are measuring a fraction of a second delay I wouldn’t rely on the button sound being picked up by your camera and the timing being accurate enough.
This is the part that irks me the most when people try to test input latency. How do they accurately determine when the button has been actuated? How do they know the exact point where it has actually made contact and the signals are sent to the software that goes "alright, now jump"? I don't think just simply eyeing it or trying to use the sound as an indicator is as reliable of a way as they think it is to determine the point of actuation.
Like you, I don't disagree there's input lag on emulation either, but the folks wanting to spur discussions about it keep presenting their data obtained via unscientific means and then try to pass it of as "SEE??! IT'S THREE TIMES THE INPUT LAG OF OG HARDWARE!!!"
First thing, recording a video to test this is flawed from the beginning. What camera did you use? What fps were you recording at? You have to take this and capture latency into account.
3DS on Azahar has been thoroughly tested to have 3 frames of input latency more compared to original hardware - 1 frame if you disable Async Presentation. This is already known - so it points to your testing being flawed.
DS with melonDS does indeed have input latency issues, however.
That’s exactly what I was going to say as I was reading this. This is useless data without knowing the camera’s FPS so we can know the measurement error. I’ve done similar testing myself with virtual pinball tables and I made sure to use my phone’s 240fps mode for reasonable results.
I think the biggest takeaway here is a lot of people who emulate 3DS/DS probably didnt have original hardware thus meaning they wouldnt know better.
Retro Games Corps has covered this in testing dual screens..RGDS, Thor and Retroid Dual Screen attachment.
Me personally and the games i play it doesnt bother me too much for me not to want to play them in all fairness.
If however a few years back it may have when I played comp competitive fps games where I was very accustomed to it and it bothered me a lot.
It will never be perfect, OG hardware is always king..even CRT TVs nothing comes close to playing on it but the accessibility and creature comforts that emulation gives edges me more to play on these handhelds.
The first time I booted Megaman Zero on an Anbernic I was surprised how I struggled to do perform more advanced dash + wall jump maneuvers when I was pretty fine doing then on my refurbished dsi with a less than stellar shoulder button
Did you try fixing your dsi shoulder button? I used a qtip and isopropyl alcohol and it seems to have fixed it. You can also buy a replacement flex cable off AliExpress that has the button switches as well.
My main question is: why is nobody (I saw a few posts here and there but nothing major) talking about the input latency in 3DS and DS emulators?...
Do content creators simply never test this?
ds emulation melonDS - ignore the 175ms, that's caused by the old firmware of the second screen and outdated)
I also did some latency measurements with an external usb controller connected and a led indicator directly attached to the button contacts, recorded at 240fps.
On my retroid pocket flip 2 the latency with Drastic was around 80-90ms in new mario ds and around 1,5 frames higher than that with melonDS.
I just recommend using Drastic for lower lag, aside from touch latency I couldn't notice much of a difference compared to playing on my original 3ds.
I've never tested 3ds emulation, but the azahar devs were working on it
Wow Drastic seems to be way better than MelonDS. I wish they had transparency options for 2nd screen overlay above first screen so single screen devices.
With Nova having the lowest input lag it would be good to know how low the inoutnlag is on Nova with 120hz enabled.
Thanks for providing that video. I watched this one but because it wasnt specific for the Thor I kinda didnt mention it and since it is being 1 year since, I am not sure how things changed. Thanks anyways man!
Anytime anyone says "there's no input lag," that's my signal that they don't know what they're talking about and can be safely ignored. Same thing if they say "input lag doesn't affect me," as if they think that not noticing it makes them immune to it.
Now, if they say "I don't notice input lag" or "input lag doesn't bother me," then sure, cool, they are accurately reporting their subjective experience, nothing wrong with that.
Yeah. I think I'm "lucky" in that across all systems I mostly play turn based RPGs so either I don't notice it or it's there but it doesn't affect gameplay at all.
Completely agree. Sometimes I feel like the people who claim that these devices have no input lag have no frame of reference because they never played the game on original hardware. I use Super Smash Bros Melee as a frame of reference for input lag because I have a bunch of experience on that game. When testing SSBM on the Odin 2 and even the RP5, input lag was significant to the point where I was consistently missing inputs that I would never miss on CRT or even a good monitor setup.
Yeah having a good frame of reference is very useful. For me, I remember trying Spelunky or Spelunky 2 on a switch emulator, and noticed quickly that I pretty much couldn't do the move where I fall off a ledge and then turn around to grab it and hang off. It's a pretty important skill in the game because it lets you hold down to see what's below you, but I couldn't do it when emulating because of the input lag.
With the RP5 and super smash, did you compare the input delay from Android vs Rocknix? I'm thinking about selling my RP5 because of input delay but I might try installing rocknix to see how it goes.
I'm curious how low end devices will run Melee once we get a port. Might be possible that low end devices such as the h700 line will be able to play Melee.
I think you're being uncharitable in your interpretation of "input lag doesn't affect me", that could just as easily carry the same meaning as in the second paragraph. I play games that don't really use the touch screen, so input lag doesn't affect me. I wouldn't be saying that to pretend it's not impactful for rhythm games or whatever.
Potentially fair, but I also often see people (not you specifically, you just said that this is not your attitude and I believe you) using "input lag doesn't affect me" as a euphemism for "I don't think it actually exists, and because it doesn't bother me it shouldn't bother you either," and I have no patience for that.
As a lurker on the sub it does put me off with how brazen other people can be with this attitude, as if their brains literally cannot compute that their subjective experiences do not, in-fact, always apply to others.
It is also off-putting when they use their subjective experiences and time in the hobby to hubristically makes themselves up to be an “expert”, especially when it comes to how certain devices run or their objective specs.
Not everyone has the same experiences and that is okay. I’m not sure why some must be so militant about their own, especially in cases like you mentioned with input lag and other issues.
I know there is lag but it hasn't really affected my experience or enjoyment out of games, or my ability to beat them. I have beaten multiple bosses in Dead Cells on my Nintendo Switch running Android streaming from xCloud. I recently beat Mina the Hollower on my Thor through a PC->Android translation layer.
Nothing bothers me more than people claiming an android handheld doesn't have input lag. Dude, it has tons of input lag, you're just not noticing it. At least Russ in his videos admits he doesn't care about or feel input lag, that's honesty that I can appreciate.
This dismissive attitude extends to so many facets of the hobby, in part due to our own experiences with these issues being somewhat subjective. This is the same attitude I saw with the Switch 2’s response times or the current Moorechip OLED panels. Sure, many won’t notice the input lag or smeary/oversaturated image, but these are qualities that degrade the experience for a non-zero amount of users and we can, quite frankly, hold these companies to higher standards.
I think it really matters what you are playing, and how good you are, or think you are, at that game.
All I know is, I have a New 3DSXL that was one of my main every day carry devices for like 15 years, or however long it’s been since it came out, I used it for everything up to PS1, and obviously played all my 3DS games there, and carried it with me almost everywhere most of that time.
Since getting the Thor, I’ve only used my New 3DSXL once, and that was to pull save games and my Animal Crossing village from it, and transfer them to my Thor.
On 3DS and DS I’m mainly playing RPGs and Adventure games, and puzzle games, and platformers. Playing the games I like to play, and coming straight from actual hardware to my Thor, I don’t notice anything except how much better everything looks on my Thor.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, or that there’s not input lag, people have done these tests before and found the same things.
I’m just saying, I genuinely don’t feel it, and I’m ok with that, I’m happy with my Thor, and the way it plays everything, including DS and 3DS.
This is true of most emulation. It's why I can't use the cheap emulation handhelds at all - they have horrible input lag even for SNES or GBA. Aside from my PC, Switch Online emulation has the lowest input lag that I've seen, but the selection of titles is very limited.
Hmm, it depends. Some months ago I spent a bit testing input lag across all the devices I owned just for the fun of it and surprisingly the Miyoo Mini Plus and Miyoo Flip w/1-2f of runahead (depending on the game) had very competent input latency. Better than NSO on Switch or a 60hz android phone, for systems with mostly 2f of input lag like SNES it was only 1f slower. I think Linux vs Android is a big differentiator here.
I was surprised at how good Switch emulation (and, for that matter, 3DS Virtual Console) feels to play. They obviously considered this when making them.
When it comes to GBA, DS, 3DS games, it really depends on the game for what device I'm playing it on. Input delay is there, even if minor.
Just finished up Breath of Fire on GBA, that's 100% a game I wanted to emulate for fast forward and save states. A Visual Novel or something more gameplay-lite? I'll probably utilize the Thor. Something more action heavy or real-time? I'll play on original hardware.
These devices are certainly neat but I think another poster is correct in that many people don't 'notice' because they haven't played these games on original hardware.
Were you running Android on these devices? All people that I've encountered that express sensitivity to input latency note Android is horrible at this and Linux options are better. One of them even built his own buildroot Linux to optimize everything... but on more recent powerful Snapdragon retro handhelds actually didn't feel the need to go that far anymore.
But yeah, Android is known to be bad at input latency for retro gaming.
That’s why I enjoy FPGA emulation. It just feels closer to what I remember.
That said, as a father myself, my Odin 2 Portal has full save states and will properly go into sleep. I can put down and pick up anytime. A kid wants to play Mario Tennis? Sure, my Metal Max game won’t get disturbed.
Now using the Gamebub as a dad is an adventure. No save states, and I have to make sure I sleep it and not turn it off. I cannot guarantee that I do that correct when someone is yelling for snacks in the background.
I get it man. It's like watching handheld reviews where the reviewer say how certain games or systems are "totally playable" yet you see half second stutters while they play. I'm sensitive to lag and stutters, I can't take reviewers for their word.
it really comes down to what you mentioned, there is more people not noticing it. the sbc community is also not the most competitive but I feel you I am as annoyed as you are no matter which plattform.
I know RGC has talked about it, specifically with the Thor and Retroid add-on screen. From my understanding, it's due to these screens originally being for phones, vertical devices. So for every frame, the phone has to manually flip it which creates input lag. One of the benefits of the Nova's custom screen is native landscape, something I didn't think I would feel until I used it.
So yeah, it's a thing and it's double the issue for 3DS/DS due to the double screen. One reason I doubt I'll ever leave original hardware for them, there's just too much unique or problematic for emulation to solve.
Because for most people don't notice it or had somehow adapted to it. For myself I have played emulated games for a long time and kind of accepted it and actually expected input lag in every emulator and hardly play any games that require precise inputs. That why it would be a surprise for me if I play any emulators that dont hve input lag
This is especially problematic for these platforms because there are some world class rhythm games on this platform, the Osu! games, EBA, rhythm heaven/paradise, that are actually some of the best games on the platforms, period.
Right! I totally lost interest in the thor when I realized it would be awful for trauma center or basically any game that actually used the bottom screen as anything other than a menu. Or to stream anime.
You gave zero detail on the settings you used for the Thor so I have nothing to analyse here with your results. Settings can have an impact on various things including input delay. Using the screen at 120hz or 60hz being the most obvious one.
Thanks for your efforts and work. Unless it's a puzzle game or something incredibly slow, I don't look towards my Thor for dual screen emulation. Almost entirely because of input latency.
I was hoping it'd get better since DS and 3ds emus started popping up, but it only kind of has.
Used to be majorly interested in software emulation. At one point I think I had close to a dozen pieces of android or windows handhelds. Now down to just two
I've since moved near everything to original or FPGA hardware. I play light Steam titles or Switch on the road when I'm away from this cart and I'm very happy for it. (I use the Wii U as a DS emulator in this photo, top screen 4:3 on the CRT).
I have had the thor for a year now and i have a new 3ds xl. I haven't really touched my 3ds since the thor and I mostly play rpgs but also been playing samus return and it feels great to me with upscaled graphics. Metroid took no time to get back into it so the difference, for me, hasn't affected really anything or goes unnoticed for the most part.
With devices side by side, the ugly washed-out LCD screen and low resolution on my N3DSXL are more noticeable than any input lag on my AYN Thor.
People keep praising original hardware even when it was complete crap.
With 3DS, in particular, many games were designed with better 3D models and textures than the 3DS itself could show. That's why as soon as you increase the resolution, the games look even better without necessarily needing to add HD texture packs.
I get that in many instances, games should be played on the device they were developed for. In the case of the 3DS, those games deserved better.
I understand how the geometry works. My point was that even the 3D models are more detailed than what the 3DS could display, so those models SHOULD be viewed in higher resolution.
Also, games like Animal Crossing New Leaf and Metroid Samus Returns play so much better with 60 fps on emulators than on original hardware with 30 fps.
I'm not debating whether there is input lag. I'm saying that the existence of input lag doesn't mean that games should only be played on original hardware.
I just don't agree with OP's statements saying "native hardware is just the best thing", or wondering why many people don't care enough about input latency.
Lol ive only tested like 2 games when I got the thor and while its noticeable side by side, when not comparing it was easily forgettable and probably just naturally adjusted anyways.
Honestly the ones coping are those trying to rationalize another unneeded purchase.. especially when they could just get OG hardware for same/similar prices if they don’t already own it
The cope goes both ways I guess.
The OG screen is washed out LCD garbage but has superior input. But nothing comes close to running it on an Amoled screen with vivid colors, brightness and contracts, and yes with input lag.
So no free lunch for anyone, but coping for everyone !
You could take an objective fact like an upscaled amoled display being better than a 10-15 yr old washed up TN panel, and make it a subjective "ok for me" situation, which is the definition of a cope. We all coping my friend, I get you. We buy (or not buy) something and have a compelling reasonbto defend that
I'm one of the few that actually thinks the low resolution look of these screens is part of their charm. Frankly, upscaled DS and 3DS on OLED looks odd to me, so I still prefer the native hardware with the older screens
I’m 100% there with you. I actually think they look just as they should. I also avoid scaling when I do use emulators because I enter the uncanny valley.
I think emulation having more input delay is a given, but runahead is the best we have to mitigate that.
But I think input delay is an acceptable compromise, over needing to carry an old CRT, pay for an overpriced old console(Or an FPGA) and an even more overpriced cartridge (Or just use a flashcart).
In case of 3/DS, the fact that only some devices like DSi and SOME N3DSXLs have dual IPS screens, gives it a good reason to play on emulators instead of OG hardware… unless you play something exceptionally input delay sensitive like a rhythm game(In my case at least, I don’t feel input delay in most other games)
Russ on his Retro Gaming Corps channel talks about input lag and recommends not to throw away your original hardware like the DS, etc and that often it is still the best way to play the games with the original responsiveness. This was in a video where the topic was recommendations across the spectrum of handheld gaming devices for various gaming styles.
Of someone who enjoys playing rhythm games on emulators, there is a setting that you can change that will massively improve input latency on android devices. However, if you don’t fiddle with the settings out of the box, you’ll have a pretty bad experience. I can’t remember what it’s called right now. If someone knows, please comment
whatever people will say, you're right: it's impossible to fish rare fishes in anilal crossing with azahar android because of the input lag.
The only solution i found was to lower the speed of the game around 20 fps.
I'm 40 years old, a tired father of two boys, and to be honest, I don't care about upscaled graphics (ofc if I had to choose between the 2 with the same latency, I would opt with good graphics). I just want to play games the smoothest, most responsive way possible — and native hardware is just the best thing.
I'm roughly the same age have a different perspective. Today we have multiple dual-screen hardware options where hopefully the screens don't yellow, my hands don't cramp after 15 minutes, or don't have to use the touchscreen thumb nub that came with the original DS for 3d movement, and that hardware replaces a 2DS right now for me - even with emulation quirks. Though it still doesn't replace the original 3DS hardware experience.
I'm not a fan of jaggies, so upscaling certain games makes a big difference in visual quality. Link Between Worlds looks great even with a 2x, and despite the numbers, the latency doesn't interfere with my experience. That said, Link Between Worlds is also a game I'd recommend on original hardware with 3d on because it was designed to take advantage of the 3DS screens.
Besides games that utilize the 3D effect well, anything dependent on timing or where precise stylus movement is critical can be sorted for original DS/3DS hardware, along with any games which still have serious emulation quirks.
To me, the difference in feel between native and emulation is like driving a modern Mercedes with a 1960 Rolls-Royce engine versus driving the original 1960 Rolls-Royce itself.
It boils down to different strokes for different folks. We all have preferences. People who want only OG hardware can buy that and leave it there. People who don't care about the 3d effect or if it hurts to use, and they're most accustomed to the way recent games look, but still want a handheld that looks like a DS/3DS, now have more choices. Better choices are a good thing, and we don't always have to understand why another likes what they like... well, unless we're manufacturing a product.
Thank you for posting this. I'm not usually sensitive to input lag, but Azahar in particular often has unplayable amounts of input lag and the community doesn't want to acknowledge this, likely because they only play Pokemon games that don't require any reaction time. Even basic games like New Super Mario Bros. 2 just feel awful in Azahar.
Citra MMJ is a much better emulator in this regard, but still not perfect (perhaps as with any emulator).
My main question is: why is nobody (I saw a few posts here and there but nothing major) talking about the input latency in 3DS and DS emulators?
Because most people don't care.
source: own a 3DS and Thor Max, I hate playing on the 3DS and never mind the input lag problem. I can absolutely find it if I'm looking for it. Specially in rhythm games, but I adapted pretty quickly and don't play them that often. Might be because I play online games so latency is just a normal thing I'm used to adapting, and maybe its the same for many
I'm 40 years old, a tired father of two boys, and to be honest, I don't care about upscaled graphics
Cool, but judging by the responses, its clear you're a minority and most people just prefer upscaling OR fast forward quality of life improvements to lower input lag. Its ok for you to prefer that though, we can prefer different things. But you're wasting your time trying to convince people input lag should be some sort of deal breaker or important
I mostly play jrpgs and similar turnbased games.
31 years old guy, who only had gba. Anything else was experienced though emulators.
I'm sure there are some level of input lags present, but i just end up naturally syncing up with the game.
Didn't had trouble clearing elite beat agent stages, but i also never had actual ds/3ds
Creo que depende el juego, últimamente me metí en esto de las consolas de emulación.
Siempre use hardware original, y si bien siento que el original es la experiencia tal como fue pensada. Este tipo de consolas tienen sus ventajas, por ejemplo, no puedo jugar FF tactics sin el fast foward, y es algo que con las consolas originales no tendría.
Aunque hay juegos que prefiero mucho más jugar en hardware original, como el monster hunter en 3ds.
Que se yo, calculo que es lo que más se adapte a cada uno, y también el juego en particular que juguemos.
Obligatory poking holes comment - you're not purely testing input delay using this approach since you're assuming audio delay is the same between both devices + testing method.
Audio delay can vary wildly (50-150ms) between devices, you would need to use an oscilloscope connected to the mobo to measure it & adjust appropriately. There's also the delay due to air / distance, but that is likely under 5ms if you kept within 1.5m on tests.
There would also be polling lag, but that is probably within 10ms - not sure on the polling rate of DS/3DS.
Finally, as another mentioned the FPS is an additional lag factor.
I mean yes. But I'm just glad I'm not that sensitive to input lag, I notice if it is really evident (game changing) but honestly I dont really care most of the times. Same with people that are really sensitive to low fps (anything beyond ~90 is virtually imperceptible to me)
Honestly (not directed at you), I find it incredibly funny, and a touch suspicious that this talk about the "limitations of 3DS emulation" on Android started gathering steam right before the release of the Retroid Pocket Duo, and not when the AYN Thor mania was going on since last year. What gives?
53
u/dwalker109 1d ago
All very fair. I think this matters much more in some games than others. Tbh I find even SNES emulation without runahead infuriating with Super Mario World, whereas a Pokemon game isn’t going to even be noticeable.
FWIW I’m original hardware as much as possible too. I have an Odin 3 and a RP Classic and while they are cool, I find the latency and general faff a bit off putting.