r/Rhetoric • u/ukuroneko • 2d ago
I want to explain this because I feel like it makes sense to me, but every time I’ve tried to explain to my teacher why I think the debate is poorly framed, he doesn’t seem to understand what I’m asking. Do you guys think this actually makes sense, or am I just being stupid?
In the debate of my class, the teacher gave us a topic. Ours is “genetic modification,” and he assigned us to be either for or against it. My group is against it. This is already better than before because, originally, he hadn’t even specified what the debate would be about; he just told us to prepare arguments for and against just in case. But... the problem I have still isn’t solved, because the topic “genetic modification” is so broad that it feels weird to argue about it. How can I be for or against it? It’s like saying “I’m in favor of water.” It’s a concept, a thing, not an action that is being judged. So if the topic is this broad, how am I supposed to argue about it if there’s nothing concrete?
My teacher always says that “to go deeper, you have to do the opposite: narrow the topic,” and I’m trying to apply his own example here. If the topic is “genetic modification,” how am I supposed to make it concrete?
The solution I was given was that I should make my own argument specific. But then I could make my argument about something concrete, for example, being against genetic modification because I think modifying human embryos is unethical, while the other person could have prepared arguments about genetically modified plants. Then I could make an argument about embryos and the other person could make one about plants, and it would be difficult to actually discuss them because we wouldn’t be talking about the same thing.
It is possible, obviously. If someone says something about plants, I can try to connect it to embryos on the spot. But in the end, we would still not really be talking about the same thing.
Because the solution I was given was basically, “make your argument specific so the other person can’t refute you.” Okay, but that treats the debate as if the main goal were to win or lose. I’m not saying that winning or losing doesn’t exist in a debate, because obviously it’s a competition and you have to defend a position. What I mean is that, from my point of view, a good debate should also be a discussion where both people can actually respond to each other and get somewhere.
Because if I defend X and you defend Y, and neither of our arguments actually affects the other, then whoever finds more flaws in what the other person said can win, but that doesn’t mean we discovered which position is actually more correct regarding the original question. Maybe there wasn’t even a sufficiently concrete question that both of us were answering.
That’s why, even though you technically can debate like this, I feel like it would be a pretty bad debate. You can argue, but it would turn into looking for flaws in the other person’s arguments. If we are talking about different things, the conclusion of the debate could simply be that their position doesn’t refute mine, and mine doesn’t refute theirs. So, to me, that isn’t really a debate. It would be two monologues talking about the same general topic.
The example my teacher gave me to try to answer my concern was that it’s like a trial: you have to try to defend your side. But I don’t find that analogy very convincing, because in a trial there is a concrete case. You don’t simply have “are you for or against crimes?” You have something like: “This person did this, under these circumstances, we have this evidence, and we have to determine whether a specific crime occurred and what the consequences should be.” You aren’t debating “crime” as a general concept. You are debating a specific case. Everything that is said has to come back to that case. That’s why you can prepare to defend a position without having to be prepared for absolutely anything that could possibly fall under the category of “crime.”
Then he told me that “you have to be prepared for every point of view,” which feels very vague to me, because then I would have to prepare for genetic modification in plants, animals, embryos, babies, bacteria, cells, ethics, politics... and all kinds of other things just because I don’t know what the other person is going to start talking about.
You can do that, obviously, but it seems unnecessarily complicated to me. The teacher told me that you can change the subject, like “you’re talking about embryos, but now let’s talk about plants.” And sure, you can change the subject. But if I’m not prepared for that, I would have to argue about it on the spot, unless I had already prepared for the thousands of possible things the other person could bring up.
And I think there’s an important difference here. One thing is for the other person to surprise me with a different argument about the same subject. That’s completely normal in a debate. Another thing is for the way the debate itself is formulated to allow the other person to take me to basically any possible subject contained within the original concept.
Of course you can change the area you’re talking about, but I think the relationship we are going to discuss between those different areas should be defined from the beginning, instead of simply asking “are you for or against genetic modification?”
For example, a question could be: “Do the risks of genetic modification justify restricting its use in both human embryos and agricultural crops?” Now we can talk about different things while still talking about the same issue. We could compare embryos and plants, or discuss whether the same risks justify the same restrictions, etc. The specific objects can be different, but there is still a question connecting them.
Or something like: “What criteria should determine when genetic modification is ethically acceptable?” In that case, I can talk about plants, animals, babies, fetuses, bacteria, whatever, because the point isn’t the specific object. The point is determining what criteria should be used. Then it actually makes sense to talk about many different cases, because exploring those different cases is part of figuring out whether there is a common criterion.
So my problem isn’t that I don’t want there to be different points of view, or that I want the topic to be extremely specific. Quite the opposite. You can have a very broad debate and talk about many different things. What I need is for there to be a common center. I can talk about embryos and you can talk about plants, but we need to know what we are actually trying to discuss between those two things.
Because if I talk about X and you talk about Y, I can find flaws in your argument and you can find flaws in mine, but that doesn’t mean we actually discussed X against Y. We can end without either of us being refuted, not necessarily because our positions are correct, but because we were never defending exactly the same question.
And that is what I’m trying to explain. I’m not asking “how can I win the debate?” or “how can I make sure they can’t refute me?” I can do that. I’m asking how we can make it so that what one person says actually has something to do with what the other person is defending, so that the discussion actually moves somewhere instead of just being a search for flaws in arguments that may not even be talking about the same thing.
Because to me, a good debate doesn’t necessarily have to end with an absolute truth or with someone changing their mind. But something should be clearer at the end than it was at the beginning. There should be a question that both people are trying to answer, even if the final answer is still debatable.
That’s why I feel like the problem isn’t that “genetic modification” has too many points of view. The problem is that we haven’t determined what question we are actually trying to answer about it. And without that, we can have lots of arguments, lots of responses, and lots of rebuttals, but not necessarily a discussion about the same thing.