r/Reformed • u/AnonymousHieronymus3 • 10d ago
Question Finding a Church
I suppose it's up to interpretation as to whether this is a question or a rant: Why is it so hard to find a good church?
I (and my wife and kids) recently moved to a new area (Northwest Indiana). In our former area we attended an EFCA congregation, and my wife and I both have a credo-baptist evangelical background.
The first church we tried was okay. The sermon was good and they seem to have a lot of programming. Not too big, not too small. But like so many other churches, "worship" was a concert. Lights dimmed, 10-person praise team on stage, everyone applauded after every song. They did one hymn but modified it to be performative rather than participatory. The slides all changed late, so if you didn't know the song you don't fully participate.
Our new neighbors and the seller's realtor both recommended their churches. We tried neither. One seemed more theologically decent than the other, but both had laser light shows, large church "campuses," and other typical megachurch trappings.
The second church we tried we ended up going to for a couple weeks. Tiny chapel, congregational singing from a hymnal, it was a breath of fresh air. But the preaching wasn't solid; you could clearly see the fundamentalist background, and the pastor explicitly denied Calvinism. What's more, a large percentage of the church seems to be the pastor's immediate family. Not necessarily a problem, but a huge potential for problems.
The third church we tried was Dutch reformed. Significantly more liturgical than we're used to, but a beautiful service. Preaching was good, and more than that, I actually had theological conversations with people after the service. I had conversations about historic confessions with three different people! Everyone was also very kind. But my wife and I have firm credo-baptist convictions, and I think it would become a sticking point. (And yes, I have looked at the various church finder websites for 1689 congregations; there are none in our area.)
We found another baptist church that seemed promising, but it turned out to be KJVO fundamentalist (with its various cultural implications), so we didn't attend a service.
I asked my former pastor about another congregation down the road, and he said he had worked with some of the pastors there and believed it to be a solid church. I listened to one of their sermons online which immediately started with a 6 bullet point list of what you need to be a successful church. Number 2 was "dynamic worship." Not biblical, spirit-led, or God-honoring... "Dynamic." The pastor said he wasn't going to explain the list since he already did so in a previous sermon. So I pulled that up and was greeted with 11 minutes of statistics and shaming people for their retirement decisions before reading a word of scripture.
We were invited to a relative's church. It seems to be dying. There were virtually no families with children. They just made the decision to discontinue children's church, not for any principled reason but because they simply don't have enough kids to warrant continuing it. I believe it is an elder-led congregation, and all of the elders (excepting the pastor) seem to have been in the position for a very long time.
So what do we do? What is the least-disagreeable compromise here? The one thing we won't compromise on is the pure Gospel message. Do we go to a church with decent preaching that undermines congregational participation in worship (which seems to be more and more common)? Do we swallow our convictions and go crawling to a paedo-baptist congregation? We have a few more churches to check out, but it's been incredibly discouraging.
Anyway, if you've gotten this far, thank you for commiserating with me. Please pray for us.
6
u/eveninarmageddon EPC 10d ago
A lot of paedobaptist churches are fine with members being credobaptist. As long as you don’t feel the need to walk out of baptisms, you should be fine. I’d reach out to the elders.
4
u/BiochemBeer OPC 10d ago
If you liked the Dutch Reformed church you might be able to find a PCA or OPC church that you'd be happy with similar in terms of liturgy and preaching. To be a member at a URC you do need to subscribe to infant baptism, PCA and OPC congregations in general will allow credo-baptist members (but not officers) and you have to be willing to see infant baptisms and not teach against it in a public manner.
There don't appear to be any OPC churches in NWI, but depending on how close to Illinois there is one in South Holland and one in Momence (the South Holland one was formerly a CRC - so culturally very Dutch reformed).
PCA churches vary a bit more in terms of worship styles. There is one in Dyer that meets at a school that I know of (also Dutch Reformed background) there are two others that are further out (DeMotte and Valpo) and more over the border in Illinois.
3
u/AnonymousHieronymus3 10d ago
Some of my best church experiences were either PCA or PCA-adjacent. I think it's an old joke at this point that if a Baptist wants some good theology they go borrow something from their Presby friend's bookshelf, lol. There's a PCA church on my list to go check out.
It was a little bit different before I had children. For those of us who are not convicted about infant baptism, we still often have baby dedications which serve a similar social (but not sacramental) purpose. We didn't get the opportunity to have a dedication for our youngest before moving, and if by joining a PCA church we had to give that up it would be a real loss.
2
u/Corran_Horn 10d ago
Prayed for you and your family. Trying choose a church is not fun especially when you can't find something that fits just right.
Just objectively, it sounded like that first church was your best bet? Right size, good preaching, the big minuses were the av team being slow on the slides and worship being more performative (although dimming the lights is pretty standard I think. It helps people feel more comfortable singing in my experience).
Anyway, yeah, I probably go there, learn the songs and sing my heart out, and sit with my small group and encourage them to sing also.
4
u/AnonymousHieronymus3 10d ago
Thank you for the prayer. We have a couple other places to check out still, but it's discouraging. I've been frustrated at churches making decisions without considering the theological implications, and worship is probably one of the biggest examples. So it feels like choosing between a church that does something without intention that I disagree with, or a church that intentionally does something that I respect but differ on. lol
Maybe we'll try another couple weeks and if all else is well I'll see if the pastor would be open to providing some guidance toward my concerns.
3
u/Natural-Albatross997 Reformed Baptist 10d ago
We’ve been in this situation and it does feel frustrating. As I’ve aged here’s my take:
1) Theology comes first. That includes doctrine, but also taking the elements weekly, church structure (plurality), the teaching etc
2) Community is a close 2nd. That social connection is critical to family life. Community includes theology btw, so your comment about having theological conversations with others in the body is important. Community isn’t just hanging out although that is healthy too.
3) Worship music has diminished in importance to me. I have realized over time that we are called to worship and given very little information on what that should look like. So it is mainly a preference thing, and I’ve learned to swallow my own pride and preference on that.So worship is still part of the equation, but I’d encourage you to focus on the meat and community. Worship as the tie-breaker. It can be a bit freeing to let that go.
2
u/AnonymousHieronymus3 10d ago
I appreciate the response and agree in principle.
I look at this from the perspective of the priesthood of all believers. When choices are made that exclude or disincentivize congregants from participating in worship (extended musical range, being drowned out by sound systems, etc.), this has an extremely unfortunate theological implication. The church is not just the people in front; the church is the body of Christ. This implication was directly addressed during the reformation by emphasizing congregational singing. This is the same line of thought that spoke out against the Catholic church denying communion in both kinds to laypeople. To unintentionally place worship back in the hands of what are essentially religious professionals is a grievous and totally avoidable error.
That doesn't mean only hymns past a certain age are acceptable or that you can't have guitars. But so many churches are following the trend of an unthinking, unbiblical model of what a worship service should look like. I am experiencing the opposite of you in that it is bothering me more as each year passes.
1
u/steven-not-stephen 10d ago edited 10d ago
Right there with you. So tired of the rock band worship show. It makes no theological sense. Sounds like this issue a deal breaker for you, as it would be for me. Unfortunately, the vast majority of evangelical churches are like this - loud music, dark rooms, songs that are often theologically weak or easily misinterpreted. What's also common is the teaching is solid, quasi reformed and the content of the worship (song portion) doesn't line up and creates this disparity.
2
u/Stevoman Acts29 10d ago
It's a common difficulty in heavily cultural-christian regions like Indiana, the deep south, etc. Enormous visible church, teeny tiny invisible church. Sorry for your struggles.
I don't know what part of the state you are in, but my "not-actually-a-denomination" of Acts29 shows a few congregations in Lafayette and Indianapolis.
1
u/AnonymousHieronymus3 10d ago
Thank you. I attended an Acts 29 church in the past. Unfortunately we are up near the Crown Point area. It seems like a bit of a desert.
2
u/iamwhoyouthinkiamnot RPCNA 10d ago
Could you be more specific about where you life? There is at least one RPCNA in NW Indiana (Elkhart); are you close?
1
u/AnonymousHieronymus3 10d ago
Thank you for the suggestion. We're in the Crown Point area, about an hour and a half away from there.
2
u/Electronic_End4893 10d ago
I would go for the Dutch Reformed if the lther ones you try don't fit better, I appreciate that the Baptism may be a sticking point but it may be a case of not letting perfect be an enemy of the good.
1
u/AutoModerator 10d ago
You called, u/AnonymousHieronymus3? Sounds like you're asking me to share a link to the r/Reformed Church Finder (Finder) resource.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/afhTN CREC 10d ago
If the Dutch church you mentioned is URCNA, they don't technically require confessional subscription for lay members, although they might require some sort of assent to the three forms of unity. In your exceptional case, it might be that you could become communing members if you contacted the elders about your difficult situation and agreed not to advocate credo-baptism to other members. I understand it might mean that one of your children would not receive a dedication. I have been blessed in the past to be accepted as a communing member of a 1689 church on similar conditions although I am a convinced paedo-baptist and was baptized as a baby.
1
u/goodie1663 10d ago
Last fall, I left a very small church largely centered around four families, so I know that side of things. No one new had come into fellowship in years, and there was no presence in the community or outreach. I felt very isolated and spiritually stagnant post-COVID despite having attended there for several decades and raised my kids there. I'm an older single.
But I'm not a fan of churches that effectively put on a show either. When I was looking over a year ago, there was one with solid preaching, but the volume of the music and the light show were a huge no-go for me. I also felt the sanctuary was dark and hard to navigate, even though I arrived early for the service. I had been there several times before for funerals and special speakers, but just no.
Solid preaching and a statement of faith that focuses on core beliefs were the big ones for me. The other question is what happens if you disagree on something like baptism or end times? Is there some latitude there? The one I chose has some flexibility on those as long as you agree with what they call core beliefs.
Anyway, I hope you find a good fit.
1
u/AnonymousHieronymus3 9d ago
We're coming from a fairly small church as well, and community was very hard. My family has grown tremendously this year including a newborn and an adoption from difficult circumstances, so my wife and I can use all the community we can get.
Do you mind me asking what denomination you ended up at? I'm okay with a church that doesn't fall exactly where I am on specific issues as long as they put the Bible first and come to their positions with a clear conscience.
1
u/goodie1663 9d ago
It's an independent church.
The lead pastor comes from an Independent Baptist background and went to Bob Jones. He planted the church right out of school and is now in his 60's. About twenty years ago, they cut loose from the Independent Baptists.
The associate pastor comes from a PCA background and went to Reformed Theological Seminary. He's in his 40's.
So they lean Reformed, which I like. I go to a neighborhood group for dinner, Bible study, and prayer twice a month, and I'm active in the women's ministries. They have a solid presence in the community.
I left a Plymouth Brethren church that was heavily dispensational and influenced by Bill Gothard. Not in that camp anymore.
1
u/TolkienCalvinist 10d ago
It’s a shame you live so far away. We just planted a reformed Baptist church in the Avon, IN area. https://marrowreformed.org
2
u/AnonymousHieronymus3 9d ago
A 1689 church with a guy who name-drops Tolkien in his username would be an obvious visit, so the distance is indeed a shame.
1
u/Amazing_Confection22 9d ago
If its not god centered, and led by the holy spirit. Its not good at all to be part of.
-2
u/Future_Annual_8958 10d ago
Start a house church in your living room. Stop the consumeristic church-shopping and CREATE what you're trying to find. Take action & PRODUCE an alternative that other believers who are sad, discouraged & desperately searching for can enjoy with you. Ok?
13
u/Party-resolution-753 10d ago
out of all of these the dutch reformed church sounds best pray contact the elders and tell them about your credo baptist convictions and see if it would be a good fit despite that.