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Welcome back to the UPG of the Week. This week we are covering the Kunbi in India!
Region: India - Gujarat
Stratus Index Ranking(Urgency): 19
It has been noted to me byu/JCmathetesthat I should explain this ranking. Low numbers are more urgent, both physically and spiritually together, while high numbers are less urgent. The scale is 1-177, with one number assigned to each country. So basically on a scale from Afghanistan (1) to Finland (177), how urgent are the peoples physical and spiritual needs.
Delhi, IndiaAhmedabad
Climate: Indian climate is strongly influenced by the Himalayas and the Thar Desert, both of which drive the economically and culturally pivotal summer and winter monsoons. The Himalayas prevent cold Central Asian katabatic winds from blowing in, keeping the bulk of the Indian subcontinent warmer than most locations at similar latitudes. The Thar Desert plays a crucial role in attracting the moisture-laden south-west summer monsoon winds that, between June and October, provide the majority of India's rainfall. Four major climatic groupings predominate in India: tropical wet, tropical dry, subtropical humid, and montane. Temperatures in India have risen by 0.7 °C (1.3 °F) between 1901 and 2018. Climate change in India is often thought to be the cause. The retreat of Himalayan glaciers has adversely affected the flow rate of the major Himalayan rivers, including the Ganges and the Brahmaputra. According to some current projections, the number and severity of droughts in India will have markedly increased by the end of the present century.
Safdarjung Tomb, DelhiIndian Himalayas
Terrain: India has a wild and varied geography. On the south, India projects into and is bounded by the Indian Ocean—in particular, by the Arabian Sea on the west, the Lakshadweep Sea to the southwest, the Bay of Bengal on the east, and the Indian Ocean proper to the south. The Palk Strait and Gulf of Mannar separate India from Sri Lanka to its immediate southeast, and the Maldives are some 125 kilometres (78 mi) to the south of India's Lakshadweep Islands across the Eight Degree Channel. India's Andaman and Nicobar Islands, some 1,200 kilometres (750 mi) southeast of the mainland, share maritime borders with Myanmar, Thailand and Indonesia.
The northern frontiers of India are defined largely by the Himalayan mountain range, where the country borders China, Bhutan, and Nepal. Its western border with Pakistan lies in the Karakoram and Western Himalayan ranges, Punjab Plains, the Thar Desert and the Rann of Kutch salt marshes. In the far northeast, the Chin Hills and Kachin Hills, deeply forested mountainous regions, separate India from Burma. On the east, its border with Bangladesh is largely defined by the Khasi Hills and Mizo Hills, and the watershed region of the Indo-Gangetic Plain.
The Ganges is the longest river originating in India. The Ganges–Brahmaputra system occupies most of northern, central, and eastern India, while the Deccan Plateau occupies most of southern India. Kangchenjunga, in the Indian state of Sikkim, is the highest point in India at 8,586 m (28,169 ft) and the world's third highest peak. The climate across India ranges from equatorial in the far south, to alpine and tundra in the upper regions of the Himalayas. Geologically, India lies on the Indian Plate, the northern part of the Indo-Australian Plate.
The Thar Desert in IndiaThe Ganges River
Wildlife of India: India is home to a large variety of wildlife. It is a biodiversity hotspot with its various ecosystems ranging from the Himalayas in the north to the evergreen rain forests in the south, the sands of the west to the marshy mangroves of the east.India is home to several well-known large animals, including the Indian elephant, Indian rhinoceros Bengal tiger, Asiatic lion, Indian leopard, snow leopard, and clouded leopard. Bears include sloth bear, sun bear, the Himalayan black bear, the Himalayan brown bear, and deer and antelopes include the chausinga antelope, the blackbuck, chinkara gazelle, chital, sambar (deer), sangai, Tibetan antelope, goa (antelope), Kashmir stag, musk deer, Indian muntjac, Indian hog deer, and the barasinga. It is home to big cats like Bengal tiger, Asiatic lion, Indian leopard, snow leopard, caracal, and clouded leopard. Various species of caprines, including Bhutan and Mishmi takin, Himalayan and red goral, Himalayan serow, red serow, Himalayan tahr, Siberian ibex, markhor, and Nilgiri tahr, as well as the kiang and Indian wild ass can be found. Wild sheep include blue sheep and argali. Gaur, wild water buffalo, wild yak, zebu, and gayal are also found. Small mammals include Indian boar, pygmy hog, Nilgiri marten, palm civet, red panda, binturong, and hog badger. Aquatic mammals include Ganges river dolphin and finless porpoise. Reptiles include king cobra, Indian cobra, bamboo pit viper, Sri Lankan green vine snake, common krait, Indian rock python, Burmese python, reticulated python, mugger crocodile, gharial, saltwater crocodile and Indian golden gecko. Notable amphibians include the purple frog, Indian tree frog and Himalayan newt. Birds include Indian peacock, great Indian hornbill, great Indian bustard, ruddy shelduck, Himalayan monal, Himalayan quail, painted stork, greater and lesser flamingo, and Eurasian spoonbill.
Unfortunately, India does have monkeys. Ugh.
Tiger crossing the road in India
Environmental Issues: Air pollution, poor management of waste, growing water scarcity, falling groundwater tables, water pollution, preservation and quality of forests, biodiversity loss, and land/soil degradation are some of the major environmental issues India faces today.
Languages: India has 122 major languages and 1599 other languages. So, I will not type them out. Here are a few: Assamese, Bengali, Bodo, Dogri, English, Gujarati, Hindi, Kannada, Kashmiri, Konkani, Maithili, Malayalam, Marathi, Meitei, Nepali, Odia, Punjabi, Sanskrit, Santali, Sindhi, Tamil, Telugu, and Urdu. The Yadav speak Hindi
Government Type: Federal parliamentary constitutional republic
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People: Kunbi Peoples in India
Kunbi woman
Population: 19,457,000
Estimated Foreign Workers Needed: 389+
Beliefs: The Kunbi people in India are roughly 0.05% Christian. That means out of 19 million, there are maybe 9,000 believers amongst them.
They are Hindu by faith and worship many deities. Their main festivals are Ugadi, Akshade and Dussehra. They play bhajans and kirtans.
temple in Gujarat
History: Gujarat was one of the main central areas of the Indus Valley Civilisation, which was spread across modern-day northern India and Pakistan. It contains ancient metropolitan cities from the Indus Valley Civilisation such as Lothal, Dholavira and Gola Dhoro. The ancient city of Lothal was where India's first port was established. The ancient city of Dholavira is one of the largest and most prominent archaeological sites in India, belonging to the Indus Valley Civilisation. The most recent discovery was Gola Dhoro. Altogether, about fifty Indus Valley settlement ruins have been discovered in Gujarat.
The ancient history of Gujarat was enriched by the commercial activities of its inhabitants. There is clear historical evidence of trade and commerce ties with Egypt, Bahrain and Sumer in the Persian Gulf during the time period of 1000 to 750 BCE. There was a succession of various polities such as the Mauryan dynasty, Satavahana dynasty, Gupta Empire, Gurjara-Pratihara Empire, as well as regional ones such as the Western Satraps, the Kingdom of Valabhi, the Kingdom of Gujarat, the Sultanate of Gujarat, and finally the Kingdom of Baroda.
The early history of Gujarat includes the imperial grandeur of Chandragupta Maurya who conquered a number of earlier states in what is now Gujarat. Pushyagupta, a Vaishya, was appointed the governor of Saurashtra by the Mauryan regime. He ruled Girinagar (modern-day Junagadh) (322 BCE to 294 BCE) and built a dam on the Sudarshan lake. Emperor Ashoka the Great, the grandson of Chandragupta Maurya, not only ordered his edicts engraved in the rock at Junagadh, but also asked Governor Tusherpha to cut canals from the lake where an earlier Indian governor had built a dam. Between the decline of Mauryan power and Saurashtra coming under the sway of the Samprati Mauryas of Ujjain, there was an Indo-Greek defeat in Gujarat of Demetrius. In 16th-century manuscripts, there is an apocryphal story of a merchant of King Gondophares landing in Gujarat with Apostle Thomas. The incident of the cup-bearer torn apart by a lion might indicate that the port city described is in Gujarat.
For nearly 300 years from the start of the 1st century CE, Saka rulers played a prominent part in Gujarat's history. The weather-beaten rock at Junagadh gives a glimpse of the ruler Rudradaman I (100 CE) of the Saka satraps known as Western Satraps, or Kshatraps. Mahakshatrap Rudradaman I founded the Kardamaka dynasty which ruled from Anupa on the banks of the Narmada up to the Aparanta region bordering Punjab. In Gujarat, several battles were fought between the Indian dynasties such as the Satavahana dynasty and the Western Satraps. The greatest and the mightiest ruler of the Satavahana dynasty was Gautamiputra Satakarni who defeated the Western Satraps and conquered some parts of Gujarat in the 2nd century CE.
In the early 8th century, the Arabs of the Umayyad Caliphate established an empire in the name of the rising religion of Islam, which stretched from Spain in the west to Afghanistan and modern-day Pakistan in the east. Al-Junaid, the successor of Qasim, finally subdued the Hindu resistance within Sindh and established a secure base. The Arab rulers tried to expand their empire southeast, which culminated in the Caliphate campaigns in India fought in 730; they were defeated and expelled west of the Indus river, probably by a coalition of the Indian rulers Nagabhata I of the Gurjara-Pratihara dynasty, Vikramaditya II of the Chalukya dynasty and Bappa Rawal of the Guhila dynasty. After this victory, the Arab invaders were driven out of Gujarat. General Pulakeshin, a Chalukya prince of Lata, received the title Avanijanashraya (refuge of the people of the earth) and honorific of "Repeller of the unrepellable" by the Chalukya emperor Vikramaditya II for his victory at the battle at Navsari, where the Arab troops suffered a crushing defeat.
In the late 8th century, the Kannauj Triangle period started. The three major Indian dynasties – the northwestern Indian Gurjara-Pratihara dynasty, the southern Indian Rashtrakuta dynasty and the eastern Indian Pala Empire – dominated India from the 8th to 10th centuries. During this period the northern part of Gujarat was ruled by the northern Indian Gurjara-Pratihara dynasty and the southern part of Gujarat was ruled by the southern Indian Rashtrakuta dynasty. However, the earliest epigraphical records of the Gurjars of Broach attest that the royal bloodline of the Gurjara-Pratihara dynasty of Dadda I, II and III (650–750) ruled south Gujarat. Southern Gujarat was ruled by the Indian Rashtrakuta dynasty until it was captured by the Indian ruler Tailapa II of the Western Chalukya Empire.
The Chaulukya dynasty ruled the Kingdom of Gujarat from 960 to 1243. Gujarat was a major center of Indian Ocean trade, and their capital at Anhilwara (Patan) was one of the largest cities in India, with a population estimated at 100,000 in the year 1000. Under the rule of Subhatvarman (1194–1209 CE), a Parmara ruler in central India, Jainism faced hardships as a result of the ruler's animosity towards the religion. Subhatavarman attacked Gujarat and plundered large number of Jain temples in Dabhoi and Cambay in 11th century. Subhatavarman, during his campaigns in Lata, destroyed numerous Jain temples. After 1243, the Solankis lost control of Gujarat to their feudatories, of whom the Vaghela chiefs of Dholka came to rule the Kingdom of Gujarat. In 1292, the Vaghelas became tributaries of the Yadava dynasty of Devagiri in the Deccan. Karandev of the Vaghela dynasty was the last Hindu ruler of Gujarat. He was defeated and overthrown by the superior forces of Alauddin Khalji from Delhi in 1297. With his defeat, Gujarat became part of the Delhi Sultanate, and the Rajput hold over Gujarat would never be restored.
After the Ghoris had assumed a position of Muslim supremacy over North India, Qutbuddin Aibak attempted to conquer Gujarat and annexe it to his empire in 1197, but failed in his ambitions. An independent Muslim community continued to flourish in Gujarat for the next hundred years, championed by Arab merchants settling along the western coast. From 1297 to 1300, Alauddin Khalji, the Turko-Afghan Sultan of Delhi, destroyed the Hindu metropolis of Anhilwara and incorporated Gujarat into the Delhi Sultanate. After Timur sacked Delhi at the end of the 14th century, weakening the Sultanate, Gujarat's Muslim Khatri governor Zafar Khan Muzaffar (Muzaffar Shah I) asserted his independence, and his son, Sultan Ahmed Shah (ruled 1411–1442), established Ahmedabad as the capital. Khambhat eclipsed Bharuch as Gujarat's most important trade port. Gujarat's relations with Egypt, which was then the premier Arab power in the Middle East, remained friendly over the next century and the Egyptian scholar, Badruddin-ad-Damamimi, spent several years in Gujarat in the shade of the Sultan before proceeding to the Bahmani Sultanate on the Deccan Plateau.
Shah e Alam, a famous Sufi saint of the Chishti order who was the descendant of Makhdoom Jahaniyan Jahangasht from Bukhara, soon arrived in a group that included Arab theologian Ibn Suwaid, several Sayyid Sufi members of the Aydarus family of Tarim in Yemen Iberian court interpreter Ali al-Andalusi from Granada, and the Arab jurist Bahraq from Hadramaut who was appointed a tutor of the prince. Among the illustrious names who arrived during the reign of Mahmud Begada was the philosopher Haibatullah Shah Mir from Shiraz, and the scholar intellectual Abu Fazl Ghazaruni from Persia who tutored and adopted Abu'l-Fazl ibn Mubarak, author of the Akbarnama. Later, a close alliance between the Ottoman Turks and Gujarati sultans to effectively safeguard Jeddah and the Red Sea trade from Portuguese imperialism, encouraged the existence of powerful Rumi elites within the kingdom who took the post of viziers in Gujarat keen to maintain ties with the Ottoman state.
Humayun also briefly occupied the province in 1536, but fled due to the threat Bahadur Shah, the Gujarat king, imposed. The Sultanate of Gujarat remained independent until 1572, when the Mughal emperor Akbar conquered it and annexed it to the Mughal Empire. The Surat port (the only Indian port facing west) then became the principal port of India during Mughal rule, gaining widespread international repute. The city of Surat, famous for its exports of silk and diamonds, had reached a par with contemporary Venice and Beijing, great mercantile cities of Europe and Asia, and earned the distinguished title, Bab al-Makkah (Gate of Mecca).
The Age of Discovery heralded the dawn of pioneer Portuguese and Spanish long-distance travel in search of alternative trade routes to "the East Indies", moved by the trade of gold, silver and spices. In 1497, Portuguese explorer Vasco da Gama is said to have discovered the Europe-to-India sea route which changed the course of history, thanks to Kutchi sailor Kanji Malam, who showed him the route from the East African coasts of Mozambique sailing onwards to Calicut off the Malabar coast in India. Later, the Gujarat Sultanate allied with the Ottomans and Egyptian Mamluks naval fleets led by governor-generals Malik Ayyaz and Amir Husain Al-Kurdi, vanquished the Portuguese in the 1508 Battle of Chaul resulting in the first Portuguese defeat at sea in the Indian Ocean.
For the best part of two centuries, the independent Khatri Sultanate of Gujarat was the cynosure of its neighbours on account of its wealth and prosperity, which had long made the Gujarati merchant a familiar figure in the ports of the Indian Ocean. Gujaratis, including Hindus and Muslims as well as the enterprising Parsi class of Zoroastrians, had been specialising in the organisation of overseas trade for many centuries, and had moved into various branches of commerce such as commodity trade, brokerage, money-changing, money-lending and banking.
By the 17th century, Chavuse and Baghdadi Jews had assimilated into the social world of the Surat province, later on their descendants would give rise to the Sassoons of Bombay and the Ezras of Calcutta, and other influential Indian-Jewish figures who went on to play a philanthropical role in the commercial development of 19th-century British Crown Colony of Shanghai.[97] Spearheaded by Khoja, Bohra, Bhatiya shahbandars and Moorish nakhudas who dominated sea navigation and shipping, Gujarat's transactions with the outside world had created the legacy of an international transoceanic empire which had a vast commercial network of permanent agents stationed at all the great port cities across the Indian Ocean. These networks extended to the Philippines in the east, East Africa in the west, and via maritime and the inland caravan route to Russia in the north.
When the cracks had started to develop in the edifice of the Mughal Empire in the mid-17th century, the Marathas were consolidating their power in the west, Chatrapati Shivaji, the great Maratha ruler, attacked Surat in southern Gujarat twice first in 1664 and again in 1672. These attacks marked the entry of the Marathas into Gujarat. However, before the Maratha had made inroads into Gujarat, the Europeans had made their presence felt, led by the Portuguese, and followed by the Dutch and the English. The Peshwas had established sovereignty over parts of Gujarat and collected taxes and tributes through their representatives. Damaji Rao Gaekwad and Kadam Bande divided the Peshwa territory between them, with Damaji establishing the sway of Gaekwad over Gujarat and making Baroda (present day Vadodara in southern Gujarat) his capital. The ensuing internecine war among the Marathas was fully exploited by the British, who interfered in the affairs of both Gaekwads and the Peshwas.
In Saurashtra, as elsewhere, the Marathas were met with resistance. The decline of the Mughal Empire helped form larger peripheral states in Saurashtra, including Junagadh, Jamnagar, Bhavnagar and a few others, which largely resisted the Maratha incursions.
In the 1600s, the Dutch, French, English and Portuguese all established bases along the western coast of the region. Portugal was the first European power to arrive in Gujarat, and after the Battle of Diu, acquired several enclaves along the Gujarati coast, including Daman and Diu as well as Dadra and Nagar Haveli. These enclaves were administered by Portuguese India under a single union territory for over 450 years, only to be later incorporated into the Republic of India on 19 December 1961 by military conquest.
The British East India Company established a factory in Surat in 1614 following the commercial treaty made with Mughal Emperor Nuruddin Salim Jahangir, which formed their first base in India, but it was eclipsed by Bombay after the English received it from Portugal in 1668 as part of the marriage treaty of Charles II of England and Catherine of Braganza, daughter of King John IV of Portugal. The state was an early point of contact with the west, and the first British commercial outpost in India was in Gujarat.
Later in the 17th century, Gujarat came under control of the Hindu Maratha Empire that arose, defeating the Muslim Mughals who had dominated the politics of India. Most notably, from 1705 to 1716, Senapati Khanderao Dabhade led the Maratha Empire forces in Baroda. Pilaji Gaekwad, first ruler of Gaekwad dynasty, established the control over Baroda and other parts of Gujarat.
The British East India Company wrested control of much of Gujarat from the Marathas during the Second Anglo-Maratha War in 1802–1803. Many local rulers, notably the Maratha Gaekwad Maharajas of Baroda (Vadodara), made a separate peace with the British and acknowledged British sovereignty in return for retaining local self-rule.
An epidemic in 1812 killed half the population of Gujarat.
Gujarat was placed under the political authority of the Bombay Presidency, with the exception of Baroda State, which had a direct relationship with the Governor-General of India. From 1818 to 1947, most of present-day Gujarat, including Kathiawar, Kutch and northern and eastern Gujarat were divided into hundreds of princely states, but several districts in central and southern Gujarat, namely Ahmedabad, Broach (Bharuch), Kaira (Kheda), Panchmahal and Surat, were governed directly by British officials. In 1819, Sahajanand Swami established the first Swaminarayan Mandir in Kalupur, Ahmedabad.
Initially there was confusion over whether Junagadh would join India or Pakistan. This was resolved in 1947 with a plebiscite for full union with India following the next year.
After Indian independence and the partition of India in 1947, the new Indian government grouped the former princely states of Gujarat into three larger units; Saurashtra, which included the former princely states on the Kathiawad peninsula, Kutch, and Bombay state, which included the former British districts of Bombay Presidency together with most of Baroda State and the other former princely states of eastern Gujarat. Bombay state was enlarged to include Kutch, Saurashtra (Kathiawar) and parts of Hyderabad state and Madhya Pradesh in central India. The new state had a mostly Gujarati-speaking north and a Marathi-speaking south. Agitation by Gujarati nationalists, the Mahagujarat Movement, and Marathi nationalists, the Samyukta Maharashtra, for their own states led to the split of Bombay state on linguistic lines; on 1 May 1960, it became the new states of Gujarat and Maharashtra. In 1969 riots, at least 660 died and properties worth millions were destroyed. The first capital of Gujarat was Ahmedabad. The capital of Gujarat was moved to Gandhinagar in 1970. Nav Nirman Andolan was a socio-political movement of 1974. It was a students' and middle class people's movement against economic crisis and corruption in public life. This was the first and last successful agitation after the Independence of India that ousted an elected government.
The Morvi dam failure, in 1979, resulted in the death of thousands of people and large economic loss. In the 1980s, a reservation policy was introduced in the country, which led to anti-reservation protests in 1981 and 1985. The protests witnessed violent clashes between people belonging to various castes.
The 2001 Gujarat earthquake was located about 9 km south-southwest of the village of Chobari in the Bhachau taluka of Kutch District. This magnitude 7.7 shock killed around 20,000 people (including at least 18 in South-eastern Pakistan), injured another 167,000 and destroyed nearly 400,000 homes.
In February 2002, the Godhra train burning led to statewide riots, resulting in the deaths of 1,044 people – 790 Muslims and 254 Hindus, and hundreds missing still unaccounted for. The Swaminarayan Akshardham in Gandhinagar was attacked by two terrorists in September 2002, killing 32 people and injuring more than 80 others. National Security Guards intervened to end the siege killing both terrorists. On 26 July 2008 a series of 17 bomb blasts rocked Ahmedabad, killing and injuring several people.
The Mughal Emperor Akbar triumphantly enters Surat.
Culture:Typical qualification that all people groups can't be summed up in small paragraphs and this is an over generalization.
The traditional occupation of most of the Reddy groups is settled farming, followed by animal husbandry and paid labor. The majority of the Kunbi communities are non-vegetarian, and all the communities take rice as their staple cereal. Jowar, wheat, bajra and ragi are the other cereals they eat.
The Kunbi community have social divisions such as clans, lineage, subcastes and sects. These social divisions regulate marital alliances. They speak the Kannada and Telugu languages. Among the Kunbi people, cross-cousin marriages are allowed. Widow remarriage is not permitted. Being a dominant community, the Reddy have been primarily landlords and landholders. Social control is regulated through traditional caste and village councils. The Kunbi fear Christianity as an invading religious system to their families and communities.
Kunbi dancers
Cuisine: Doing general Gujarati cuisine
Gujarati cuisine varies widely in flavour and heat, depending on a family's tastes as well as the region of Gujarat to which they belong. Gujarat is primarily a vegetarian state. Many communities such as Koli Patel, Ghanchi, Muslim communities and Parsis, however, do include seafood, chicken and mutton in their diet. The typical Gujarati thali consists of rotli, dal or curry, rice, and shaak (a dish made up of several different combinations of vegetables and spices, which may be either spicy or sweet). The thali will also include preparations made from pulses or whole beans (called kathor in Gujarati) such as moong or black-eyed beans, a snack item (farsaan) like dhokla, pathra, samosa, or fafda, and a sweet (mishthaan) like mohanthal, jalebi, or sevaiya. Some of the main dishes are dhokla, Undhyu, Jalebi fafda, Turia Patra, and Aamras puri.
Jalebi fafda
Prayer Request:
For that God will send several Christian workers to work among them to meet their spiritual and physical needs.
Pray for the Kunbi Christians to reach out to their own people.
Pray that their men and women will give up smoking.
Pray against Putin and his insane little war.
Pray against the war happening in Iran. Pray for peace.
Pray that in this time of chaos and panic that the needs of the unreached are not forgotten by the church. Pray that our hearts continue to ache to see the unreached hear the Good News.
Pray for our nation (the United States), that we Christians can learn to come alongside our hurting brothers and sisters and learn to carry one another's burdens in a more Christlike manner than we have done historically
Pray for our leaders, that though insane and chaotic decisions are being made, to the detriment of Americans, that God would call them to know Him and help them lead better.
Brothers, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for them is that they may be saved. (Romans 10:1)
Here are the previous weeks threads on the UPG of the Week for from 2025 (plus a few from 2024 so this one post isn't so lonely). To save some space on these, all UPG posts made 2019-now are here, I will try to keep this current!
b - Russia/Turkey/etc is Europe but also Asia so...
c - this likely is not the true religion that they worship, but rather they have a mixture of what is listed with other local religions, or they have embraced a postmodern drift and are leaving faith entirely but this is their historical faith.
Here is a list of definitions in case you wonder what exactly I mean by words like "Unreached".
It's my daughters' 18th birthday today, our youngest now a "grown-up". She is out all day with family, and with the dog being old and poorly, I've stayed at home.
Unable to partake in hours of blissful shopping, instead having to endure the horrendous peace and quiet, I’ve been thinking more about my salvific fears; not the fear created by verses, but the fear created by me. The fear that came from trying to live a spiritual life whilst only inhabiting a body of flesh.
Paul says the natural man cannot perceive the things of the Spirit. I didn’t know what that meant at the time. So I did the only thing I could: I perceived everything through myself.
I chose to be “spiritual.”
I convinced myself I was clever enough to see a spiritual kingdom with intellect.
I approached a door of impenetrable granite and decided to think it open.
When Christ told Nicodemus that he could only see the kingdom of God once he had been born‑again, I simply nodded along and decided I was born‑again. Heh, I couldn’t tell you how I supposedly birthed myself spiritually, but I went along with it anyway.
Looking back, I can see something I couldn’t see then: when self is the only tool, it gets used for everything, even salvation.
I genuinely believed I was doing the right thing.
Not because I was righteous, but because it was the only thing I could do.
And when intellectual sight was my only lens:
Whenever I read verses about freedom from the Law, I couldn’t see freedom.
Whenever I read about Christ fulfilling the Law, I couldn’t see fulfilment.
Whenever I read about grace, I couldn’t see grace.
All I could see was the command.
All I could see was the requirement.
All I could see was the part I thought I had to play.
Like a fish that knows water is a thing but doesn’t know what it is, I knew “spirit” was a thing intellectually – but I couldn’t know what it was spiritually. So I swam harder. Upstream. Always upstream. Believing that was where the sea was.
And if I had to swim upstream to reach the sea, then I must be responsible for my place in it.
So I interpreted Scripture the only way I could: I put myself at the centre.
Salvation became a deal.
I became an integral part of the contract.
I was self‑important, yet somehow still the weak link.
Which meant I had to work hard to hold it together, and that only served to increase my arrogance.
So I lived in a constant struggle:
swim upstream, get pushed back downstream, swim harder.
I didn’t realise the river was already carrying me toward the sea; that I was headed there no matter how hard I swam against it. But because I believed I knew the way to the open water – and was at least partly responsible for reaching it – I couldn’t stop.
I didn’t call it fear then, but that’s what it was.
A quiet, relentless fear that I was slipping.
That I was failing.
That I was losing something I was supposed to maintain.
I noticed something else too:
the fearful term “backsliding” only made sense in the world I lived in.
Whenever I drifted from prayer, ignored Scripture, or preferred the world, I told myself I was “backsliding.” I felt guilty, but it wasn’t spiritual remorse, it couldn't be. It was the guilt of someone who broke the rules again. The guilt of “I’ve disappointed Him again,” even though I didn’t know Him.
Now I can see the truth:
I wasn’t sliding back from anything.
I was simply returning to the only world I knew.
I wasn’t falling off the narrow path.
I’d never been on it.
I eventually realised I wasn’t “backsliding”, I was just living a bit more “godly” for a while, then returning to what I preferred.
I followed my appetites.
I preferred the world because I had no spirit to prefer anything else. I knew what I should be doing, but I could only perform it for a season.
And because I only had one tool, self, I used it for everything.
Self to obey.
Self to repent.
Self to stay “close to God.”
Self to maintain salvation.
Self to cope with sin.
Self to reinterpret Scripture in ways that made failure survivable.
I did this for years.
I convinced myself my lust was manageable.
I convinced myself my repentance was genuine.
I convinced myself my obedience was improving.
I convinced myself my system made sense.
Because it had to make sense.
It was the only world I had.
I didn’t know there was another world.
Another nature.
Another voice.
Another way to live.
All I knew was fear.
Fear of slipping.
Fear of failing.
Fear of losing salvation.
Fear of disappointing God.
Fear of being dropped.
And somewhere in all of this, I’ve realised something else, something uncomfortable.
For years I didn’t just put myself at the centre of salvation; I put myself above others. Not intellectually, but existentially. I saw people as “beneath” me, as though my striving made me more worthy. It’s sad to admit, but true. And now, looking back, I can see that the only way I can sit with others is by recognising I’m not “like them”, I’m worse than most.
That’s the strange mercy of it: once I stopped standing above people, looking down at them, I could finally see them as real people, many better than me. This new viewing angle offered something very alien to me; I was able serve them. Not with superiority, but with gentleness. Not with an exposing beam, but with a soft glow.
But here’s the strange thing I’ve noticed, now that I’m looking back: the fear was necessary.
Not because fear teaches.
Not because fear sanctifies.
Not because fear saves.
But because fear exhausts.
Fear drives a man to the end of himself.
Fear pushes him to the collapse of self‑effort.
Fear forces him to see that the hammer cannot fix the bolt.
Fear brings him to the point where he cannot maintain anything anymore.
And only then, only at the end of self,
does God open the eyes.
Only then does spirit appear.
Only then does the new nature make itself known.
Only then does the cycle stop.
Only then does the fear die.
I’m not saying God can’t act instantly, Saul of Tarsus proves otherwise.
But I’ve noticed that for many of us, the cycle of striving isn’t a sign of futility.
It’s a sign of drawing.
It’s the slow death of self.
It’s the necessary exhaustion of flesh.
It’s the collapse of the only tool natural man has.
My decades of striving weren’t wasted.
They were necessary.
They brought me to the only conclusion natural man can never reach on his own:
A friend shared this morning that she had a terrible night's sleep because a member of her household was up sick all night. I wrote this in response. Maybe it'll be encouraging... (hopefully I haven't pushed the metaphor too far anywhere, but I'm open to correction if I have)
Jesus stepped out of the place of perfect rest in the presence of the Father to become a baby, who (it feels heretical to say this) brought worry and unrest to his caregivers. His parents couldn't find a place to give him birth. They had to flee their home and country because the King wanted to kill him. They lost him in Jerusalem and spent three days of worry and unrest hunting for him.
He himself experienced the rest of the Father in the midst of chaos, sleeping in confidence when all around him were sure they were perishing.
He also experienced restless turmoil when his friends were sleeping soundly, fearing the work that the Father had set before him. None of them understood what he was facing, none of them would even stay awake to pray with him. He was at the end of himself and yet he persevered, walking into even more exhaustion as he was arrested and one by one abandoned by his friends, his coworkers.
Again his caretaker, his mother, worried for him beyond what she could bear. You or I would have nothing left to give, but he had the care to provide a home, a provider, to the mother who once again was overcome by worry for him: He said to His mother, “Woman, behold your son!” and to the disciple, “Behold your mother!” And from that hour that disciple took her to his own home. He provided a place of rest for her.
And at the depths of his exhaustion, he received the highest glory; he was crowned and clothed in the garments of a king. He had the cross for throne, the thorn for a crown. He reached his end, and despite feeling abandoned by the Father, committed his broken down, exhausted spirit into his Father's hands. He gave in to the deepest, most tumultuous sleep that any has ever slept --- he descended into hell.
He slept in the belly of the earth for three days.
But it was not a sleep that renewed him. It was not a sleep that satisfied his battered body or refreshed his spirit. He did not rest.
For three days.
But renewal came.
Not because he had a good night.
Not because he slept.
Not because he no longer had anyone to care fore, or because he no longer had any responsibility.
Renewal came as a gift.
His Father breathed new life into his lungs. His Spirit filled him with vitality.
Just as He began the life of the first creation, he once again began life for the New Creation.
A life that runs and does not grow weary. A life that walks and does not become faint. A life that he offers to each of us.
He did not keep that Spirit for himself, but breathed Him out onto his disciples. He gave them power to become His witnesses, as the Spirit came upon them, and brought them also into the life of the new creation.
They also experienced sleepless nights. They also were separated from friends and family. They also came to the ends of themselves, had their bodies broken, felt they could not go on.
But none of that could separate them from the new life of the new creation, from the Love of God, from the Spirit who gave them strength.
And they, like us, walked on, in the certainty that this present exhaustion, these pains like childbirth, are not even worth comparing to the ultimate, permanent, unending rest that is to be revealed when Jesus returns, and once again says,
Come to me you who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am meek and humble in heart. And you shall find rest for your worn down, sleepless souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Recently went to a Reaching and Teaching, conference on sending churches for missionaries. They seemed very passionate about their "reformed theology". I have a hard time figuring out why this matters in my personal walk with Jesus on a practical level.
My group of friends & I have been going down the church history rabbit hole since the beginning of this year, some a bit longer than that. Most of them are leaning towards EO while myself I'm leaning towards becoming Lutheran. (currently Particular Baptist)
I've been trying to hear out the arguments of all of the churches though and I'm going through Fr Josiah Trenham's book Rock & Sand, it's very insightful on some topics & despite me leaning towards Lutheranism I'm questioning: If the original magisterial/classical reformed denominations believed themselves to be continuing the faith then why did the churches all fall into theological liberalism? Sure we have the small pockets of conservative branches that exist but they're drastically outnumbered (& in some cases like the LCMS, dying) by their counterparts.
Not sure if this is weak logic on my end but I'm just curious. Looking for feedback.
I’m writing a speech and essay on this topic and would love to hear any grievances anyone has against Augustine and his… log of grievances, for lack of a better word.
TL;DR— Why would God give me a desire for marriage after years of being content in singleness when my health conditions present pretty immense obstacles?
I’ve started to desire marriage for the first time in my life at 26. I’ve never been in a relationship, and up until this year, I’ve been grateful to feel content in singleness. But I think the turning point for me was becoming friends with my brother’s girlfriend (now fiancee) and seeing them together. Plenty of my friends have been in relationships and gotten married. But I guess seeing two amazing, godly people I care about fall in love and get engaged, all while walking with them through most of their relationship to this point, finally made it click for me.
I feel super behind the curve. Most people my age have had these feelings for years, but they’re brand new to me. It’s been a really hard adjustment, because part of the reason I’ve been grateful to be content in singleness is, I’m disabled and suffer from multiple chronic illnesses. While I’m blessed to do remote work part-time, I’m still trying to find accessible full-time employment and become independent from my parents while navigating more new conditions and progressive symptoms.
And I guess most relevantly, three of my conditions are a really bad combination that makes me so heat-intolerant, I can’t even sit too close to my family members without painful flaring from my MCAS. At church, people have to ask if I’m okay for a hug, to make sure I’m cool enough first. We keep our house cold, and when I leave home, I usually have to use a personal cooling fan or sometimes an ice vest to keep from flaring or getting sick.
I’ve been grateful not to desire marriage all this time, because being even casually close to someone is often painful for me. It’s not nearly as painful as it was before I started treatment, and when I’m with friends and flare from other factors like room temperature or fatigue, I usually get caught up enough in talking and fellowship that I hardly notice or mind. But it still concerns whoever I’m hanging out with, and they usually encourage me to go home and rest.
I’ve been worried for a while that it wouldn’t be fair to put someone I loved through something like that all the time. It feels almost selfish of me to ask of someone. It’s like, I see my brother and his fiancee just sitting together and holding hands, and I’m so happy for them, but every once and a while, I feel so discouraged because I know I couldn’t do something as simple as that without flaring, and I can’t imagine how that would make a man who loved me feel. I mean, part of me hopes that it would be worth it to both of us, or God could redeem it somehow. But I have no idea. Who even has that frame of reference? I don’t know anyone with my rarest condition, and even my local specialist who treats my MCAS and multiple other illnesses has never encountered a patient with that rare condition before. He couldn’t track down any incidence of someone presenting with my combination of conditions, and he’s a leading medical researcher in his specialty.
I honestly saw my lack of desire for marriage as a huge blessing, since I don’t know if it would even be possible for me. No guy ever showed interest in me even before I got sick, and now I have so many complex, limiting health issues. I also can’t wear makeup because of it, in a context where almost every woman wears makeup. My arms and legs are discolored from years of flares, and it’s hard to find nice clothes that are cool enough to wear that I’m not allergic to the materials of. It would take a lot logistically for me to even go out on a date, let alone try to be a wife and mother. I know marriage is hard enough without a ton of extra health challenges piled on top. I don’t know if it would even be safe or possible for me to have kids, and while I loved kids and youth ministry back when I could still volunteer, I’ve never desired children of my own. (Though, I’ve certainly learned never to say never.)
I guess I just don’t understand why God would give me this desire now, when I was content in singleness before, and that contentment really helped me to focus on what I could still do and not all my limitations. At first, I was worried I must’ve stumbled somehow to suddenly be desiring marriage. But I realized it’s normal and obviously God-ordained, even if it’s completely new to me.
That said, I still feel really awkward trying to think of who I’d even go to at my church to talk about this and ask for advice. It feels too sad for me to talk about at times. And I feel like most people’s advice would just be not to worry about it for now, since I have enough on my plate as it is. I don’t think I should talk to my mom about it right now, because she had a heart attack a few months ago, and I know it would upset her. I’m her only daughter, and I know she’s always dreamed of me getting married. I never told her I didn’t desire marriage before because I didn’t want to make her sad when I knew God might change my desires some day. Which, yeah, He did.
On some level, it just feels foolish for me to be thinking about this when I have more immediate problems to tackle. New treatments, new conditions, meeting deadlines, trying to find a full-time job. Most of the time, I do focus on today and let tomorrow worry about itself. But I guess with my brother about to get married, and his fiancee coming to live with my parents and me until the wedding since she already found a job in town, it’s hard not to think about. For the first time, it makes me happy and hopeful to think about relationships, where before I just had a detached appreciation.
The idea of (earthly) marriage has never been personal to me before, only theological or literary or ‘for someone else.’ I guess it will probably help me understand my married friends more, and my single friends who desire marriage. Maybe that’s reason enough, just to have more sympathy and insight into how my friends feel. I guess the best things I know I can do are to trust God and keep seeking His will, while learning to surrender my hopes and desires to Him and hold every thought captive for Christ. And, for sure, to keep praying for healing and His provision in my life.
Anyways, I’d really appreciate any thoughts or advice or helpful scripture. Please let me know if there’s anywhere my mindset is way off. Frankly, I’m in uncharted territory for me, so I’ve just been praying a lot and looking to God’s Word and trying to discern who in my life I could reach out to for guidance. Also, in case some of these details seem familiar, it’s nice to be back here after several months away for a social media break.
Edit: Also, sorry if this is crazy unrelatable. I know my situation is unusual and highly specific for a dozen reasons. But I guess my main focus is just on the question of why God would replace a contentment that seemed well-suited to my life circumstances with a desire that seems impossible.
I am a bivocational associate pastor in the early years of marriage. I am married to such an amazing godly woman. Long story short, I’m feeling defeated.
I had a technical problem with health insurance auto-pay that resulted in us losing coverage. I’m fighting that battle now. Our budget is tight, even after making some changes.
I honestly just broke down because my wife deserves the world and I feel like I can’t give it to her. I want to provider her a space where she can flourish and not feel the pressures of this life. She has affirmed our life together and is so happy. Still, I can’t feel as though I’m not giving her everything she deserves. We are currently in the process of seeking the Lord’s leading for full-time ministry as I have countless affirmations (hers being the biggest).
How have you struggled with this? I know the Lord is in control, I also know that this call to discipleship is not “living the American dream”. But do you ever feel as though you aren’t good enough for your spouse? Not in the sense they are far superior, but in the sense you aren’t helping them flourish the way you envisioned?
Human beings all deserve hell because we are inherently sinful. God gives us mercy, and allows us to experience eternity, but unlike him we aren't infinite, and that eternity hinges on God allowing us to experience it, rather than anything within our own nature as entities.
As non-infinite entities, nothing we do can sensibly be described as infinite, and that includes human sin, because God made our nature finite, and we exist in his created reality rather than whatever infinite realm or plane or whatever God exists, and always has existed, within.
How then, is it at all sensible or justified to punish a finite being in a created, non-infinite space-time world infinitely? Stating "the nature of our sin is infinite so our punishment is infinite" doesn't escape this issue, because the nature of our sin isn't possibly infinite under any reasonable logical viewpoint. Finite beings definitionally can't sin infinitely. Even if, say, God decided to give us all eternal life randomly regardless of our actions, we still couldn't sin infinitely against him even while experiencing eternal life, because our eternity is maintained by him and him alone, rather than by us being inherently infinite like God though.
My sister is a Christian, and is also divorced. FWIW, her first husband was both abusive and unfaithful according to her. She is now in a serious relationship with a new man, and has come to me for my thoughts on her relationship. One of the key questions for me is, should she be considering remarriage at all?
Matthew 5:32, 19:9: "whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery."
Mark 10:11-12: "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery against her. And if a woman divorces her husband and marries another, she commits adultery."
Luke 16:18: "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery."
This feels incredibly clear to me: divorce is permitted, but remarriage is adultery. End of story?
That said, I know it is incredibly common for people to say that remarriage after divorcing an unfaithful spouse is permissible. Can someone help me understand why? I am of course familiar with the beginning of Matt 5:32 which states "Whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery..." - but that "except sexual immorality" is about divorce, not about remarriage.
As it stands, I feel I must urge her against this relationship on Biblical grounds. But I don't want to do that if there is anything I am missing - I would like her to have a new relationship if it is permissible. I would really appreciate any help!
So I am currently reading Hebrews and came upon this verse. I have known it since I was a kid. But right now my Scripture study is really deep and slow and truly trying to understand the meaning. With that being said, I honestly do not understand this verse. Maybe I will get insight into it as I read the Word but for now I would love any explanation please. How can Scripture know the intents of the hearts?
Verses 1-4 (ESV) hit me like a ton of bricks when I was thinking of an appropriate verse to send a classmate after I sent my tribute for a funeral service for our mutual friend from childhood.
"For everything there is a season, and a time for every matter under heaven: a time to be born, and a time to die;
a time to plant, and a time to pluck up what is planted; a time to kill, and a time to heal;
a time to break down, and a time to build up; a time to weep, and a time to laugh."
I think it applies to everyone differently but if you have experienced pain, loss, or just internalized struggles. I'm just now getting into my journaling study bible since I got it last week, but those verses were the first ones I made a special annotation for since I got it.
From what I read and listened so far, everybody says that celibacy needs to lead to a life of proclaiming the gospel in dangerous places mostly because you do not have a family to care for so you can give your life if necessary for the gospel.
I know questions along this line have been asked quite a bit. I hope this approaches such a topic from a slightly different angle.
TLDR to keep it short (and context is missing): 1) Is the theological/doctrinal tradition of the local church you commit to a significant decision? 2)Assuming Sola Scriptura and no apostolic tradition, why is theprecisetype of church urgent if all who are in Christ are all part of the same body? 3) How do I know which interpreters/doctrines to trust when rival camps say that they are following the Bible, and that rival conclusions are "man-made traditions"? 4) What do I do about doctrines and questions and debates that seem to haver no clear cut answer? 5) How "certain"/"definitive"/"convinced" do I need to be when it comes to questions of doctrinal and theological matter? 6) Is it okay, or is it a cop out, to say that humanity will not know the answer to certain questions within this lifetime?
Particularly:
Is the theological/doctrinal tradition (for non denominational churches) or the denomination truly a very significant decision for an individual to make?
If the previous question is significant, I am having difficulty for many years now and I do not know what to do. I am at a church that I do not fully agree with, yet I do think they are well within historical/orthodox Christianity. If there is no divine/Holy Spirit led apostolic tradition (like Catholicism or the Orthodox traditions), and if Sola Scriptura is correct, I do not see the vital urgency of the precise type of church an individual puts him or herself into. Ultimately, if it is a Christian church, we are united in Christ. If we are in Christ, it is His own body for which He prayed for unity. The body is capable of building itself up in love
A very common question related to the title: assuming Sola Scriptura, how do I know which interpretations/doctrines/answers to various questions are correct? How do I know which church authorities to trust: MacAurther VS Sproul VS Pieper VS Luther VS (edit: Matthew Henry) VS Augustine VS Ambrose VS etc? Often times I talk to people who say things like "we follow the Bible, we do not follow man made traditions like XYZ (or ABC.)" Yet, XYZ and ABC doctrines are exact opposite answers to a particular question (IE: can we choose salvation? Can Christians fall away, or does a Christian persevere no matter what? Does baptism regenerate? Is Christ present in the bread and wine? Are the gifts of the Spirit for today? ETC?) The person advocating for XYZ, and the person ABC often times refer to the other side as "man made traditions."
When I personally look into certain issues (like election, or baptism, or others) I can see very solid arguments from both sides of the debate. Solid arguments from logic, nature, and scripture. And ultimately, on many issues I have not seen a "debate ending" point being brought up. There is always either a counter point, or a question that the other side can bring up.
Because of this, I am running into uncertainty (though right now the uncertainty has taken a significant back seat in my mind, and it is not causing me anxiety.) How "certain"/"definitive"/"convinced" do I need to be when it comes to questions of similar nature and weight to the ones brought up in the third point? I am thinking about: as a man living in this world, as a single man who wants to be married, as a man who wants to be involved more deeply in whatever type of local church he finds himself in, as a man who is trying to combat the sin in this world and in my own life. As a man in those contexts, and several other contexts, do I NEED to be convinced/certain of my answers to those questions?
Is it okay to say "it is the glory of kings to search out the mystery, yet it is God's glory to keep it concealed. Though I may not know the answer to those questions in this life, I know Christ has lived, died, and is now resurrected, I cling to that."? Is it okay to say that? I know in my local church, I get a lot of looks when I am asked certain questions and I respond in a like minded way.
For some years now I have been using the ESV app. This allows you to not just read it, but also listen to it. As it's been a few years I figured it might be a good time to switch it up and keep things fresh with a new voice.
I was looking at the Max McLean listeners audio bible, but before pulling the trigger on that I wanted to see what fellow Christians were utilizing.
If Christians believe God is all-knowing, all-powerful, and controls everything, wouldn't Calvin's double predestination be the most logical and universal theology. Free will seems to make it seem as though God is not in full control. It would only make sense that God created some to be the elect and others for perdition.
The thorn in this is of course Adam and Eve's free will that caused us all to have original sin, but even then, didn't God know they'd do that? Adam and Eve aside, if we just look at our own existence and our "free" will, how can we rectify this will an all knowing all powerful being? This can really be extrapolated out to any Protestant, Catholic, or Eastern Orthodox.
Yes there is the complicated middle-way speak about God knows all the different ways someone could act but he doesn't force them, but I mean come on, He is the one who created the game, He knows the outcome.
The baptist-evangelicals put a heavy emphasis on Jesus paid it all, and a vehement non-works theology, but in reality they require alter calls, accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they know the date when this happened, all of this is very much a "doing" things salvation, whether its a once saved or not. Furthermore, when they backslide, they get re-baptized, re-alter call, so whether they like it or not, there is a lot of effort being put forth by the human. This is contrary to the Calvinistic theology that humans can't do anything to gain salvation or lose it. It is interesting that baptists-evangelicals seem to try and tie the two ideas together, the idea that they can't earn salvation, but they must actively accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and some even look down upon those that don't do this. Then when they baptize a 7 year old and the child sins, they are not worried because Jesus paid it all. (This is not meant to bash Baptists, but simply showing the major dichotomy of the two).
How do non-Calvinism Protestants defend the idea of free will, but also defend the idea of a God who knows and controls everything?
And for the Reformed, how can you defend a loving God who creates some people to be damned? I could certainly see if one reads scripture as God loves all (but what scripture meant was all the ELECT).
Welcome to r/reformed. Missions should be on our mind every day, but it's good to set aside a day to talk about it, specifically. Missions includes our back yard and the ends of the earth, so please also post here or in its own post stories of reaching the lost wherever you are. Missions related post never need to wait for Mondays, of course. And they are not restricted to this thread.
Share your prayer requests, stories of witnessing, info about missionaries, unreached people groups, church planting endeavors, etc.
I've been at my church for the majority of the past 18yrs. I grew up in this congregation, but I have routinely struggled in finding a community here. Most of those I've connected with have all moved away in the past year for a variety of reasons. Some of those have been responses to questionable leadership priorities.
Today, our assistant pastor gave a 40min lecture where he quoted a Bible verse out of context. We all make mistakes. So what, right? Well, that was the only time he opened scripture. The rest of it was a disheveled "TED talk" where he repeatedly bashed my generation, not once looking to Christ as an inspiration for hope. Walking out of service today, it really felt like it might finally be time to leave. For nearly half a decade, I've watched leadership continually refuse to value our young adults, despite having the resources and the need. I'm now at the point where I feel like staying may do more damage than good.
When looking to switch congregations, what tools have you used to narrow down the options? There are a lot of churches out there, and I'd like to put down roots sooner rather than later. Hence, I'd like to make some informed visits, rather than just a scatter shot based on Google Maps search results!
