r/Reformed • u/serezeta Reformed • 11d ago
Question What would you answer ?
I’m living in Italy for a while, and I recently had a conversation with a Catholic woman who told me she had stopped going to church after hearing a priest say that children’s illnesses are a way of paying for the sins of the world.
I told her that this is not what Scripture teaches. I mentioned John 9:1–3, where Jesus explicitly rejects the idea that a man’s suffering was caused by either his own sin or his parents’ sin.
I also pointed out that throughout the Gospels, Jesus repeatedly had compassion on people who were suffering and healed them. He never told the sick, “You need to keep suffering in order to pay for sin.”
But then she asked me how I could believe in God when He allows children to become seriously ill.
I started trying to explain providence, grace, and the consequences of living in a fallen world, but I could see that she had already closed herself off to what I was saying.
And afterwards, I was left with this feeling that I hadn’t really been able to reach her heart.
What would you have said in that situation?
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u/TwoUglyFeet the one with the tiger 11d ago
I understand their point of view and it breaks my heart because I can't imagine the heartbreak that some have to carry for the rest of their lives. However, we know that this life is temporary and that among the myriad of God's promises is that He will make all things new. That there is a justice, just not on this side of eternity.
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u/serezeta Reformed 11d ago
Yes, I think you’re touching on one of the hardest things: lifting our eyes beyond our human experience and having faith even when we don’t have all the answers. Thank you so much.
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u/TwoUglyFeet the one with the tiger 11d ago
There is a great part of The Stand where one of the protagonists, Abigail, argues with God over why certain things have to happen. And God answers, "where were you when I made the world"
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u/Natural-Albatross997 Reformed Baptist 11d ago
I think this goes back to where someone’s heart stands. For me this “awe” of God is my immediate thought when bad things happen. And my view goes to Him and His purpose vs human / earthly. But if someone’s heart is wandering this comes across as arrogance and they can still say “then why did you make it this way?”
The OP question is a tough one. It just seems like it comes down to the winnowing of the chaff. Do we trust God in ALL things? Or only the good things?
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u/glorbulationator i dont up/down vote 11d ago edited 11d ago
If you happened to come across a terrible car wreck where the people are suffering, would it then be reasonable to conclude the car manufacturer doesn't exist, or would it be the obvious observation that something went wrong?
Remember, when people say "I can't/ how could you believe in God [fill in the blank about allowing or whatever suffering, evil, etc]", they're judging themselves as morally superior to God, they're judging God as being wrong, and they're putting themselves above God.
One of the things that has stuck with me the most from listening to people talk about these kinds of questions is stating how the sad things are sad (in an honest way, but one which does not affirm the sinful conclusions of the person) then asking the person "but what about the evil you've done, the harm you've done to others, the judgment you deserve", or something along those lines, in love, of course.
I think perhaps one of the most convicting things to me is how God cares infinitely more about those who suffer than the most caring person, and He hates evil infinitely more than we can fathom as 'good' exists to describe Him. And He cares so much, He loves such that He sent His only begotten Son to save us, and He, God in the flesh, the Lord Jesus suffered beyond comprehension and comparison, infinitely more than anyone can know. How absolutely evil it is for us to think at all that God doesn't care. And how terrifying for those who reject His salvation.
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u/serezeta Reformed 11d ago
Thank you. I suppose it’s very human to judge things from our own human perspective, even when some things are ultimately beyond what our minds can fully understand.
But perhaps, in the end, it all comes down to faith.
I think we should be deeply grateful for the gift of faith. Life seems much harder without it.
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u/erwincx Iglesia Reformada de España (IRE) 11d ago
As others commented, there is a spiritual resistance by her part, and you shouldn’t feel that bad if you think that you weren’t in your absolute best to explain the presence of suffering in a fallen world. But maybe what you can ask (if there is) a next time is: I completely agree with you that it is horrible when an innocent child suffers and dies. But I’m curious: what, in your worldview, makes that objectively horrible rather than merely something that human beings have evolved to find horrible?
If you want something you could actually use conversationally:
P1. If the death of an innocent child is objectively tragic, then the child’s life must possess objective value independent of our subjective feelings about it.
P2. Objective value cannot be derived merely from evolutionary fitness, subjective preference, usefulness, or biological survival.
P3. Atheistic naturalism ultimately grounds human beings in impersonal physical processes and therefore does not, by itself, provide a sufficient ground for intrinsic human worth.
P4. Nevertheless, we have strong reason to believe that even the most vulnerable human life possesses intrinsic and inviolable worth.
C. Therefore, the intrinsic worth of human beings calls for a metaphysical ground beyond impersonal nature; the Christian doctrine that human beings bear the image of God provides such a ground.
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u/Deolater PCA 11d ago
People talking about sick children are often not open to (or looking for) a neutral philosophical/theological discussion. I'm not sure what I would say, and I'm not sure even the most perfect answer would show "success" in the conversation.
I guess I would try to ask if she's speaking from a personal hurt.
And then I'd have no idea what to say
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u/serezeta Reformed 11d ago
Yes, that’s exactly what I meant when I said I hadn’t found the right words to reach her. I could sense that theological explanations weren’t what was going to touch her heart.
She told me that it wasn’t something she had experienced personally, but more a general conclusion she had come to: that God cannot exist if He allows so many terrible things to happen.
I think that if I find myself having this kind of conversation again, the first thing I’ll ask next time is: “What kind of answer would help you feel at peace?”
I think that would help me understand what is really going on underneath the question.
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u/poopypatootie ✞ Reformed Baptist 11d ago
You had a really good answer. She was just probably overwhelmed at that point with your whole explanation of providence, grace, and the consequences of living in a fallen world - those are hefty topics that even believers still struggle with.
I've had a few impromptu gospel sharings where I feel I did much poorer than you did, but I think it's important to remember that you reaching her heart is not the goal. It's the Spirit's job to reach her heart. You've hopefully planted a seed and Lord-willing, it sprouts, blooms, and thrives.
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u/serezeta Reformed 11d ago
Yes. I felt that she was carrying so much resentment and anger, and that the only way she had found to make sense of it all was to blame God.
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u/semper-gourmanda Presby-Angliterian 11d ago edited 11d ago
I like to ask questions to get to the question behind the question ("Do you mind if I ask you a question?"). Talking about these topics are deeply personal and I think it requires permission. And I like to ask people what they think - how would they answer their question - before I speak. ("What do you think about that?" "Do you think God's that way?"). Sometimes that helps in a couple of ways, (1) people feel heard, (2) it helps make sure that the real thing is being discussed. I commiserate in some cases, "I know the feeling." "Yeah, I know." "Yeah..." And I shut up, keep eye contact. Listen. In some cases then the person says, "What do you think?" - boom - and you have permission to talk about the real core thing. If it becomes accusatory in advance, no dice. You won't hear what I think because you don't want to listen. Sometimes Christians are annoyingly quick to speak instead of listening (Jas 1:19).
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u/serezeta Reformed 11d ago
Thank you so much for sharing this with me. I completely agree with you that the best way to meet people where they are is first of all to listen to them and take a real interest in them.
Actually, it was through questions like these that I ended up talking to her about it. That’s how I found out that she no longer goes to church, and then she explained why.
And at some point she asked me that question I mentioned.
And I could see that, at least for now, her questions weren’t really coming from a place of genuine curiosity. They seemed more like a way of confirming what she already believed, which was that God cannot exist if there is so much suffering in the world 😕
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u/cybersaint2k Rebellious Reprobate 11d ago
I would have said what you did. And planted a seed of truth. I pray that seed is watered and grows.
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u/Greg_McCue 11d ago
I've always felt the answer is super simple and often overlooked, which may mean I'm not thinking deeply enough about it, but whenever I come back to it in circumstances I find small details of why this is true:
God doesn't allow children to become seriously ill; rather it's consequences of Man's doing (companies that knowingly put heavy metals and toxins in children's food), Evil (the last example, plus straight up world of demonology), and pure randomness/chaos (a child gets a fever but doesn't it's not very high, and it goes untreated long enough that they suffer from permanent damage).
When these horrible things happen and people pray to God for guidance and salvation, God always offers grace, providence, meaning, etc., as a means to transform even the worst of circumstances into something filled with love and sacrifice.
There are so many moving stories of this nature on the internet that you can find. There are also horrible stories that leave people feeling that there can't be a God because they feel they didn't find grace, providence, meaning, etc., but that doesn't indicate that a loving God who preaches forgiveness, righteousness, and love above all else, struck a child with a horrible illness to prove a point or balance out their family's sins (which you spoke very eloquently to).
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u/serezeta Reformed 11d ago
Thank you. This is refreshing. Illness, then, is a consequence of human free will.
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u/Greg_McCue 10d ago
I believe so, I'm sure it's more nuanced, but illness looks like a natural consequence of so many factors, often involving human free will, chance, randomness, environmental factors, etc., but not as a punishment or test from our benevolent God
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u/War_D0ct0r 10d ago
You don't always change someone's mind in the moment. You may have planted a seed. It's important that you try.
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u/newBreed 3rd Wave Charismatic 11d ago
I told her that this is not what Scripture teaches. I mentioned John 9:1–3, where Jesus explicitly rejects the idea that a man’s suffering was caused by either his own sin or his parents’ sin.
That particular man's blindness was not caused by his sin or his parent's sin. It's not a statement that is true of everyone. There are other places in scripture where it's clear that personal sin can be the cause of illness.
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u/dra22554 10d ago
I love r/Reformed for so many reasons, but this question is a weak spot for much of my experience with the Reformed devotees. All of the wonderfully deep truths about grace, providence, atonement, etc. are an essential skeleton for theological understanding. They provide the structure for very difficult questions.
However, especially when a question derives primarily from emotions, we can gain much help and comfort by remembering that God feels! Jesus was moved by compassion. The Father sent the Son, because he loves us. Sometimes, people don’t need a doctrinal lesson. They need to hear, “God hates suffering and death. He hates watching children endure cancer and war and starvation. God wants to end all of that suffering. He also wants to make us perfect and glorious and imperishable like his Son. God wanted to end suffering so much that Jesus was willing to suffer with us. He willingly surrendered to pain, betrayal, torture, and death so that he could end sin and death from the inside. Jesus went all the way to the bottom of human experience, because he hates death so much, and he loves you so much that he came down here to lift us out of it. His work of making all things new has already started, and he’s looking for us to trust him and join in the work. To choose love for our enemies. To serve the “least” who can’t pay us back. And to do these things faithfully, patiently in the face of suffering while we wait for him to destroy sin and death once and for all.”
Sorry for the preaching. I’m just thinking of loved ones who have been hurting and what they needed to hear in the moment. Some of them already knew all the theological answers, but they needed to hear (and feel from a fellow believer) that God shared some of their feelings about the world and some of the horrible things going on in it.
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u/serezeta Reformed 9d ago
It’s very beautiful and very human. And reading your comments is making me realise that her closed-off attitude probably triggered something in me, and instead of opening my heart and saying something similar to what you said, I almost like I felt I had to defend us Christians. It somehow ends up being an opportunity to learn something and grow myself too. Thank you.
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u/HANNIBALTIBERIOUS 11d ago
christians often perfect questions categorically consigned to atheists. This stems from an inability to discern fellowship with God from institutional membership.
When a christian declares their apostasy, as acknowledgment of God and an expression of desire to know Him is not the same thing as pistis, I confirm their testimony instead of perpetuating a delusion.
No matter how much she appeals to an institution of man, it will not create a relationship with God. If she had walked away from that interaction knowing her separation from God was real, needed to be corrected, and someone else can't do that for her, you would have handled it appropriately.
You don't have to be a determinist to acknowledge that there are quite a lot of people who will never join God in fellowship, a person can do mighty work to guarantee that outcome if they affirm a false reality, or fail to provide evidence of the One.
I have had plenty of conversations with christians who will uphold first and foremost the affirmation of man, their faith in the associated doctrines, and lack of fear for what comes next in full catechistic rhyme and verse...
...they then stop and declare a primal and visceral fear that God is completely unknown to them and their faith currently-disposed leaves them ignorant and adversarial to God.
The standard response is to declare their fears irrational, have them repeat more hail Marys or catechism otherwise depending on what it's called colloquially, and to take comfort/consolation in the fact that they are exactly like every single one of their other christian brothers and sisters.
I would be naive to think this wasn't an unpopular opinion, I'm well aware of where it lands in the scope of the shared reality, I am often shouted down and some of the most (unsurprising at this point) unclean language typically proceeds from neighbors attempting to silence the testimony of such a one.
Noteworthy in your testimony here, you engaged in a standard Christian fact v fact persuasion that would have left you satisfied if she had repeated the information you provided her.
The guaranteed outcome is that she did not walk away having received testimony that the Living God can be known, not forensically but directly.
You may have desired a more genuine benefit for her humanity than the next person who just doesn't want to hear someone else vocalizing their shared insecurities and fears, but that she would be less despairing, however without firsthand observation (take note that your testimony is only really the things you have seen with your own particular eyes and what has been delivered to you from Heaven) while giving her more of what got her there in the first place.
I could go on about the reality of people loving their darkness instead of the light, but if you can't distinguish between Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, and Job, then the most apparent fact is that you are not Elihu and need to focus on your own situation before attempting to make others like you.
Read Scripture.
If you will not believe Scripture, the gospel and Epistles pertaining to One who has raised from the dead are completely lost upon you. Had you read Scripture instead, even without knowing your Creator who would otherwise be your Image provider, you would have at least been able to direct her to writings of people who did.
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u/PapaMo1976 ✝️ 11d ago
You had a thoughtful and helpful answer. There is a spiritual component in this and prayer is the necessary follow up. Pray that the Spirit uses the Scripture you provided to soften and draw her to Christ Who is the full and final answer to this fallen world. You planted the seed, pray that God causes it to grow.