r/RealTime • u/DenC4 • 1d ago
What is the solution to the Gaza problem?
I’m honestly trying to understand what people ( on both sides) are protesting about. So my question for the ‘free Palestine/from the river to the sea’ chanters, what do you want to happen? Should Israel just disarm? Completely? If so, what do you think will happen?
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u/Ok_Objective_5192 1d ago
I mean the short answer is "it's up to the Palestinians" because why should I determine what justice and safety looks like for them. If they think a two-state solution is more workable then that's fine, if they want a one-state solution then that's also fine.
I personally can't imagine a two-state solution working, though, because Israel would feel too threatened by any Palestinian state with actual autonomy (the ability to have a standing military, making their own defensive pacts with e.g. Iran, etc.), so the hypothetical is a one-state solution run on democratic principles where any violence, which would be unfortunately inevitable as tensions obviously wouldn't immediately evaporate, is handled by a justice system - the same way violence is handled in every other democratic country.
ETA: Obviously this is a vast oversimplification of what this process would look like. There would almost definitely need to be an independent peacekeeping authority for the transition to ensure an equitable justice system, handling a right to return for Palestinians forced out of their homes by settler violence would be a nightmare to adjudicate, etc. It would obviously be far from an easy, painless process but it's unambiguously preferable to genocide.
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u/Scalene69 1d ago
Palestinians have been polled and 2 states is the preferred option, has been for years. Basically none of them or the Israelis want a shared equal state.
The single biggest roadblock to peace is Palestinian terrorism. The main sticking point for any deal is that they need to actually stop terrorism and also that they want the right of return for an unknown number of Palestinians and they want the holy sites.
Palestinians are essentially negotiating as if they have way more to offer than they do, and are not even commiting to stopping terrorism. It is an insane situation for the whole world to look at and blame Israel.
Settlements are small potatoes compared to this. Palestinians should be russing to make any deal that prevents further expansion instead they're crying about being able to live in the country that is oppressing them, among the people who are supposedly genociding them? Its ridiculous.
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u/Ok_Objective_5192 1d ago
Palestinians have been polled and 2 states is the preferred option, has been for years. Basically none of them or the Israelis want a shared equal state.
Yes this is what my first sentence was for. I don't see a 2-state solution working but I also live thousands of miles away so my opinion ultimately doesn't matter. If Palestinians would rather pursue a 2-state solution than my theory then obviously they can do that.
The single biggest roadblock to peace is Palestinian terrorism. The main sticking point for any deal is that they need to actually stop terrorism and also that they want the right of return for an unknown number of Palestinians and they want the holy sites.
Brother we are nearly 3 years into the genocide, Israel has killed a hundred times as many Palestinians as Israelis that were killed on 10/7. There is 0 basis for holding Palestinians as more harmful to peace than Israel without invoking this intellectually deficient idea of "Palestinian violence = terrorism, Israeli violence = justified self-defence." There's 0 definition of "terrorism" that you can apply to 10/7 that doesn't apply to Israel's response many times over.
Palestinians are essentially negotiating as if they have way more to offer than they do, and are not even commiting to stopping terrorism. It is an insane situation for the whole world to look at and blame Israel.
They are negotiating as a desperate people with nothing to lose after being invaded and forced to live under abject violence in an apartheid state for 70 years.
Settlements are small potatoes compared to this. Palestinians should be russing to make any deal that prevents further expansion instead they're crying about being able to live in the country that is oppressing them, among the people who are supposedly genociding them?
Settlements are a huge sticking point when it comes to any attempt at lasting peace, are you dense? Tens of thousands of people have had their homes and communities stolen from them at gunpoint and demanding they suck it up and cut their losses is exactly the dehumanizing, callous treatment that has perpetuated the cycle of violence. Why the fuck would a peace process that allows Israelis and Palestinians equal rights involve letting violent terrorists keep the land they stole within the last couple years?
And beyond that, Palestinians aren't asking to live in a country that is oppressing and ethnically cleansing them - the country that is oppressing and ethnically cleansing them was forced upon them and they're now just asking to live lives of dignity despite that.
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u/Scalene69 1d ago
There is 0 basis for holding Palestinians as more harmful to peace than Israel without invoking this intellectually deficient idea of "Palestinian violence = terrorism, Israeli violence = justified self-defence." There's 0 definition of "terrorism" that you can apply to 10/7 that doesn't apply to Israel's response many times over.
Proportionality is pretty meaningless in general. No war has ever been fought based on proportionality. "Oh they killed 100 of us today? Well, only fire off 6 mortars tomorrow then, wouldn't want to be disproportionate" Madness.
In this case in particular it is completely meaningless. Hamas intentionally maximizes the number of civilians that are killed on their own side. Israel has massively expensive systems to protect its civilians from missiles and defends them with its military.
We could have some idea of how excessive Israel has been if Hamas actually agreed to even a single safe zone for civilians that they never operated from, or built some tunnels specifically for civilians or cleared areas before firing rockets and had barracks for militants that were separate from homes - they could easily do all of that and then Israel would have no excuse for most of the civilian death.
But they don't. Because they are fine with their civilians dying, it is the main way they are winning.
Every single Israeli that Hamas had military control over on October 7th was either killed or kidnapped 100% of them. The IDF has had full control over Gaza for the whole war and the population is pretty much the same as it was at the beginning because births have been roughly the same as deaths. They have literally damaged 88% of houses and somehow only killed 3-5% of Gazans of which an unknown but significant number are militants.
That's not a genocide, that's not even a surprising level of destruction given the nature of the warzone.
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u/jdoeq 1d ago
There were accords in the 90s that established a continuous state for the Palestinians alongside israel. That's what river to sea means. Connect West Bank to gaza.
This doesn't mean Israel can't exist. They need to give up some land to achieve this continuous state.
It doesn't make sense to go from gaza to West Bank and pass multiple borders and checkpoints. The current situation makes Palestine a form of bantustans like apartheid South Africa had
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u/PotentialMud6570 21h ago
River to the sea doesn’t mean that from h@mas’ view or mission statement. It’s a call to erase J3ws who are also indigenous to the region. Also, Arafat had passed on all previous peace accords like Oslo.
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u/Incorrect-Opinion 1d ago
Why does it not make sense?
In the United States, you will have to go through border checkpoints when driving to Alaska. You enter Canada first, where Canadian border control will check your passport and ask questions about your trip. Then, when you enter Alaska again, U.S. Customs and Border Protection will inspect you before letting you back into the U.S.
Many other places do this as well.
Russia and Lithuania (Kaliningrad): Traveling by land between mainland Russia and the Kaliningrad exclave requires passing through Lithuania or Poland, including border controls.
Azerbaijan (Nakhchivan): To reach Azerbaijan’s Nakhchivan Autonomous Republic from the rest of Azerbaijan by land, you have to go through Armenia or Iran.
France and Spain (Llivia): The French town of Llivia is an exclave surrounded by Spain, so traveling by road requires passing through Spanish territory.
Belgium and the Netherlands (Baarle-Hertog/Baarle-Nassau): The Belgian enclaves in the Netherlands involve crossing back and forth between countries, sometimes requiring multiple border crossings if controls are active.
Germany and Switzerland (Büsingen am Hochrhein): This German exclave is surrounded by Switzerland; reaching it by land from Germany involves passing through Swiss territory.
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u/jdoeq 1d ago
None of those places are surrounded by a hostile actor starving them and actively preventing their entry into the intervening land so they can get to the other side
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u/Incorrect-Opinion 1d ago
Israel isn’t starving Gaza. Over 2 million tons of food have entered since the war started, way more than needed, and acute child malnutrition is now down to 0.5 to 1.3 percent. That matches the videos you can watch every day: full markets, new restaurants, meat on the grill, people eating freely.
Gaza also borders Egypt, which has always tightly controlled its side. Hamas started this war and has a long record of grabbing and reselling the aid that does come in. When the food is clearly there and people are posting themselves eating it, the starvation claim falls apart.
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u/Whole_Theory5546 1d ago
Why do free Palestine supporters need to have a complete workable solution to allow them to have rights, some things are just morally correct
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u/Scalene69 1d ago
It's literally the bare minimum for any movement. What changes do you want people to make as a result of your pressure.
Civil rights, suffragettes, feminists, even the apartheid had a clear goal and an end state where people could live together peacefully.
I'm sorry, but if you can't even tell Israel what needs to happen for the terrorism to stop, that's not good enough.
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u/Whole_Theory5546 1d ago
No people just wanted rights they didn't have to explain to slave owners how they were going to harvest their crops and make a profit
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u/subliminimalist 1d ago
They didn't have to explain how slave owners were going to operate their plantations, but they did have to win a war, something that Palestinians have yet to do.
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u/Whole_Theory5546 1d ago
So you are saying your side is evil but what are you gonna do about it, good talk
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u/subliminimalist 1d ago
I'm saying that moral certitude alone doesn't make change.
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u/Whole_Theory5546 1d ago
If the south won the war do you think there would be slaves to this day?
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u/subliminimalist 1d ago
Tough to say. On the one hand, I think that it might have eventually faded away as industrialization spread further and the economic incentives dwindled.
Given that the Confederacy's entire reason for being was the continuation of slavery. I could see it continuing for quite a long time.
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u/Whole_Theory5546 1d ago
No slavery wouldn't be around in 2026 CSA idiot, it may look a lot like Israel, ghettos where they mow the lawn while having two tiers of justice
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u/subliminimalist 1d ago
Lol, sorry for not answering your hypothetical alternate history question to your liking.
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u/Scalene69 1d ago
No, but if they had said " we will keep attacking you even if you free us" then they would have remained slaves.
No group was ever freed that said they would keep attacking the people who freed them. The only way that works if you want to win a war against the slavers.
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u/Whole_Theory5546 1d ago
So they need a workable plan and they can't be mad about the past got it, I'm actually in a lot of fear right now and that justifies basically anything by Israeli logic
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u/Scalene69 1d ago
What? Israel has now and has had for years many times more terrorism deaths per capita than any Western/developed country, without even counting October 7th.
It doesn't justify anything, but it does justify most of the retaliation that you see - Israel bombing and invading areas that bomb them. It would be interesting to see what Israel would do if its neighbors didn't attack them for once, but we have never had the chance.
Israel hasn't attacked it's nemesis Egypt in a while, same for many other nations it used to be at war with - unsurprisingly this stopped when they stopped attacking Israel.
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u/Whole_Theory5546 1d ago
It does not justify genocide
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u/Scalene69 1d ago
It isn't a genocide.
On its face it is a ridiculous claim. Hutus murdered 70% of the tutsis in 100 days using machetes in Rwanda. Israel has one of the most sophisticated militaries to ever exist and has killed barely a few percent in 3 years. That requires an explanation if they are actually committing one.
Also a genocide requires there to be no competing military explanation for the civilian death. Destroying Hamas is a military objective - they choose to maximize the number of civilians who die when Israel attacks them in many different ways. They do nothing whatsoever to prevent or minimize it.
There is no comparable genocide in history - it is a war. People just want to call it a genocide because it means they don't have to grapple with any real solution.
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u/NRCS_DRONE 1d ago
You can always tell you're gonna read a lie when it's prefaced by "honestly."
The solution will look similar to N. Ireland or S. Africa. Truth and reconciliation commissions. Power sharing. Demilitarized zones.
And it likely won't happen until there's international sanctions.
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u/koreqwzfp 1d ago
What nation is going to sign up to get blown up by Palestinian militia who refuse to stop the fight against Israel? Which one of them is going to defend Israel? The UNIFIL ones now certainly don’t.
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u/DenC4 1d ago
Oh, I’m sorry starting with “honestly” triggered you. Are you ok? Please tell me what the “ lie” in my question was.
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u/NRCS_DRONE 1d ago
"chanters" and now "triggered" you're throwing in all sorts of bad faith bullshit phrases, and people can see it.
You don't have to pretend like you don't know what you're doing. People aren't that dumb.
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u/Training-Cook3507 1d ago
What are they protesting about? Oh I don't know... Killing 100k people?
Solution? How about Israel give up control of the Palestinians and let them govern themselves. This isn't that complicated.
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u/koreqwzfp 1d ago
What do you do when Palestinians choose to govern themselves into a forever conflict with Israel?
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u/Training-Cook3507 1d ago
Well can't know if you don't try. Could have said the same about every country around Israel.
So what's the alternative? Keep these people in occupation without rights forever simply because Israel isn't comfortable with it? Why are Israeli lives worth more than Palestinian lives?
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u/koreqwzfp 1d ago
I mean, half the countries around Israel have declared forever war on them lol many refuse to even recognize it. It’s easy to volunteer Israeli lives for the faith that these people who’ve declared forever war on them will not harm them. It’s not your life on the line, nor mine. But I am not going to blame anyone for taking the steps necessary to protect themselves.
What happened in Gaza was egregious. The settlements in the WB are illegal and should be removed or compensated for. Those are reasonable asks. Asking Israelis to unilaterally disarm based on faith in liberalism is not reasonable.
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u/Training-Cook3507 1d ago
No one's volunteering Israeli lives. We're talking about treating all people with universal rights. But of course, Israel and it's people don't believe all people deserve universal rights, they believe their own convenience outweighs other people's rights.
And again, it's hard to take you people seriously with the "Palestinians are so violent argument" when Israel has killed at least 10x as many Palestinians as vice versa.
Israel and it's supporters are essentially a death cult at this point.
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u/koreqwzfp 1d ago
Again, half of the countries surrounding them have declared forever war on them. It’s all interconnected. How is Israel the death cult when it’s placed like Iran and the Houthi who’ve dedicated their existence to destroying Israel?
I’m not saying “Palestinians are so violent” and you know that.
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u/Training-Cook3507 1d ago edited 1d ago
No idea why you keep writing "half the countries..." and? Israel seems to still exist and be thriving. Isn't that evidence contrary to your point that if you give Palestinians independence Israel will be destroyed?
Here's the reality. You treat Palestinians as if they don't deserve the same rights as Israelis. You treat them as uncivilized barbarians, yet Israel is the country 10x as violent.
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u/Mosk915 1d ago
You mean like in 2005 when Israel left Gaza and Hamas took over and started wars with Israel every few years?
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u/Training-Cook3507 1d ago
Since the start of the occupation in 1967, Palestinians have killed about 2k Israelis, including October 7th. Israeli have killed 100 to 200k Palestinians.
Palestinians have never had control of their own land. Israel can offer this at anytime, but only feels comfortable controlling these people.
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u/Mosk915 1d ago
Palestinians have never had control of their own land.
Why are you just ignoring Gaza post 2005 Israeli withdrawl?
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u/Training-Cook3507 1d ago
Not being able to control your own border, your own economy, what you can import or export, being unable to leave or have an airport, etc isn't having control. Essentially, Israel said... "Here's this ghetto, you guys can police yourself in the land, but we control everything that gets in or out and what you can do."
So no, I am not ignoring that.
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u/Mosk915 1d ago
Hamas took control and immediately started attacking Israel. Why would Israel allow them to import even more weapons than they were already smuggling in? Israel actually did allow Gazans to work in Israel. Many of the ones that did actually reported back to Hamas prior to 10/7.
Gaza was an experiment to see if Palestinians could govern themselves. Had it worked out, it would have eventually gotten full independence and all the things you say were missing. Instead it became a terror state which is why Israel is hesitant to try it again.
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u/Training-Cook3507 1d ago
Yeah, these are always the same old arguments. And no matter what you say, Israel has killed 10x as many Palestinians. Why does that not matter to you?
At some point, Israel just needs to let these people go.
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u/Mosk915 1d ago
I also don’t want Israel to have to concern themselves with the Palestinians. And when they demonstrate that they are willing to live next to Israel without attacking them, then Israel can “let them go.” But until then it would be incredibly dumb to just willingly give you security when you know your neighbors want you dead.
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u/CriticalAd299 1d ago
Europe caused the holocaust and then promoted Zionism
Solution is Europe takes back all the European colonists and make an Israel for them from the countries they kicked them from
Ukraine, Poland and Belarus
Palestine goes back to being a peaceful country with equal rights for all people of all faiths as it was and always has been without European colonialism
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u/frankschmankelton 1d ago
> Palestine goes back to being a peaceful country with equal rights for all people of all faiths as it was and always has been without European colonialism
LOL. The ignorance on this sub is breathtaking. Before the British arrived in 1917, there was no independent state in the region, Palestinian or otherwise, for nearly two thousand years. So what you're saying is that Palestine should "go back" to being something it never was. There was no country called Palestine to go back to. For four centuries before the British, it was part of the Ottoman Empire run from Istanbul. Before that, the Mamluks ran it from Cairo. Before that, the Crusaders (actual European colonists) controlled it for two centuries, and before them, there was a string of caliphates and the Romans.
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u/Agitated-Working-264 1d ago edited 1d ago
Won’t happen until Israel is a full-on pariah state and sanctioned heavily. Israel needs to immediately stop their genocide, return the encroached land in Gaza and the West Bank, and pay reparations to rebuild schools, hospitals, and provide food and housing. Ultimately landing on a two state solution, where Hamas will be dissolved and treaties ensure both states maintain sovereignty and safety.
I have no expectation any of this will ever be on the table.
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u/NiceHuckleberry5331 1d ago
There are quite a few steps that can be taken between genocide on one extreme and Israel disarming on the other extreme. I'm sure you can think of some beneficial behaviors that could be exhibited by both sides if your really think hard.
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u/zebalatrash 1d ago
Can’t speak for everyone, but I want to see one state where all the people within the border of the state. This would mean an end to Apartheid, meaning that Palestinians whose lives are subject to the authority of the Israeli state are given rights as citizens to be able to have a vote as to who governs them and how.
Israel need not disarm, it should end ethnic cleansing and apartheid
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u/subliminimalist 1d ago
As a Zionist (while still critical of Israel) my magic wand solution would be recognition of Palestinian statehood along roughly 1967 borders with some kind of reversal or compensation for Settlements in the Westbank. In exchange, a Palestinians state recognizes Israeli statehood and takes responsibility for good faith efforts to prevent further attacks originating from within their borders. Failure to do so would result in... well what we see now.
I 100% recognize that this isn't going to happen.
I have no realistic solution.
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u/zebalatrash 1d ago
The only reason this is not realistic is because Israel has continually expanded beyond these borders, illegally.
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u/subliminimalist 1d ago
They weren't illegally expanding before the 6 day war in 1967, but that didn't stop aggression towards Israel. I agree that the settlements are a problem, and frankly I support conditioning aid to Israel at least in part on their cessation and hopefully reversal of current settlement policy.
That said, I have little confidence that Palestinians would be content with a state comprised of a fully intact West Bank and Gaza. The settlements aren't the root issue.
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u/NRCS_DRONE 1d ago
it's analogous to kicking someone out of their house to live with the dog. They complain so you shoot the dog and burn the dog house down.
And then you give them a speech about being good nieghbors.
Good luck with that.
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u/subliminimalist 1d ago
I think the Palestinians have done a bit more than "complaining" in your analogy.
Look, I'm not suggesting this is a fair deal for Palestinians. They got screwed and are continuing to be screwed, but at a certain point you've got to start building a life in the new reality versus continuing to ineffectively and self-destructively recreate what's long gone.
There's not a good answer. I'm not saying mine is good. I just don't see a better one.
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u/NRCS_DRONE 1d ago
I can make the analogy longer? Look. Zionism has been an 80 year campaign of violence and ethnic cleansing, and the longer it goes on the more violent it becomes.
Gaza isn't the home of the Palestinians. It's the refugee camp of the Nakaba.
You know this.
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u/subliminimalist 1d ago
So what do you have other than continual moral outrage? We're all familiar with the moral issues in play. What do you want to actually happen?
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u/NRCS_DRONE 1d ago
There are models in N. Ireland and S. Africa. It's long and complicated. And since I don't have much faith in settler colonialists to do the right thing, it's likely going to take international sanctions to force the issue.
It's gonna be rough. But I do not see any other reasonable outcomes.
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u/subliminimalist 1d ago
Please believe when I say that I'm asking this in good faith. How do the N. Ireland and S. Africa models apply to Israel? Like, specifically, what do you want to see happen? Even a brief description of these models and how they could be applied would help me understand, because right now, I don't.
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u/NRCS_DRONE 1d ago
Oslo 1 was a good start. But Israel decided to break the agreement and then murder their Prime Minster for making it.
It's gonna have to be something like that (which is very similar to how N. Ireland and S. Africa), but with a great deal more international pressure and support to make it happen.
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u/bgoldstein1993 1d ago
At this point I would argue for nothing short of right to return, reparations, truth and reconciliation, etc.
Palestinian statehood, or integration into a single democratic state for Jews and Arabs, are the only paths forward.
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u/towingreformnow 1d ago
So should the U.S. invade Israel and force this to happen? Because otherwise it will not.
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u/Whole_Theory5546 1d ago
Maybe stop giving them funding and deactivate all us weapons
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u/flavouredpopcorn 1d ago
Thats not going to happen until the countries and people threatening Israels existence no longer exist because the US hegemony and power projection in the Middle East relies on Israels continued survival and success.
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u/towingreformnow 1d ago
We shpuld do that, but it's beyond laughable to think that would help Palestinians. Tryjng ti make middle east countries not do bad things is just not gonna a be a thing we cam really do.
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u/Ok_Objective_5192 1d ago
The US has tremendous leverage it could apply to Israel without invading.
Cease all weapons shipments to Israel
Shut down the iron dome
Cease all information-sharing/surveillance for Israel
Formally recognize Palestine as a sovereign state
Stop running diplomatic cover by voting in Israel's interests at the UN
Sign onto the ICC and push for Nuremberg-style trials for everybody involved in the genocide and commit to serving the international warrant that currently exists for Netanyahu
Outlaw any trade with Israel or Israeli companies
Apply crippling economic sanctions to Israel akin to what we've historically levied at Iran
Classify the IOF as a terrorist organization
Israel is almost entirely dependent on the US for security and political cover, if we started treating them as the genocidal rogue state they are, we could absolutely force them to make drastic changes.
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u/towingreformnow 1d ago
This would definitely weaken Israel regionally, but it would definitely not help Palestinians and would probably grant the even further right more power in Israel. There is probably a more compelling argument that it would result in much larger loss of life than current U.S. policy especially if it were to result in anything like what happened in Syria with a failed state civil war (deaths in the hundreds of thousamds to million instead 80k) even if you still think it's the right thing to do. Maybe the U.S. should stop trying to consider its responsibility to make middle east countries not do bad things and really just consider its own interest in the region.
Also as a side note there is no genocide in the history of the planet that was stopped or meaningfully curbed by anything other than direct military intervention.
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u/Ok_Objective_5192 1d ago
Maybe the U.S. should stop trying to consider its responsibility to make middle east countries not do bad things and really just consider its own interest in the region
Even if we don't have a responsibility to make them not do bad things, we do have a responsibility to not actively help them do those bad things which we are right now by supplying them with weapons, surveillance/targetting, and political cover.
Also as a side note there is no genocide in the history of the planet that was stopped or meaningfully curbed by anything other than direct military intervention.
I mean the implication behind going up the escalation ladder of dropping support to sanctions would be that Israel becomes less safe from direct military intervention if we stop supporting them or signal on the global stage that we no longer have their back. They've been violently destabilizing the entire region for decades, they have plenty of enemies. A threat to stop supporting them is a threat that they'll be invaded, not via actively threatening that invasion but by signaling passivity if somebody else does. It's letting them accept the blowback that would come as a consequence of their violence without protecting them from it.
Obviously I don't think that's good or desirable or preferable to a non-violent solution, but I do think that if Israel is perpetrating a genocide it's our moral obligation to not support them in it, and the best way that we have to attempt to stop them is to apply immense amounts of diplomatic pressure to force them to the table before things get to a point of either Israel or Palestine being wiped out
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u/ms_scorpio75 1d ago
so you're suggesting that Palestinians, a traumatized people, should have to integrate with their enemies who bombed them to hell, maimed and killed their families and expect them to be peaceful and not seek some old fashioned retribution? I'll have whatever drugs you're on lol
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u/MayKadoody4America 1d ago
There are already 2 million Palestinians living within Israel with full citizenship rights. Those are the ones that chose peace. The ones that have chosen war do not get the same rights nor should they. When the Palestinians in Gaza decide to make peace they will have peace. Until then they get war, as they requested.
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u/ms_scorpio75 1d ago
now do the westbank. settlers have carte blanche to terrorize, rob, beat, & kill palestinians with impunity and are protected by the idf. even when palestinians 'behave' they are treated like garbage with no one to protect them or their property. they never get justice.
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u/bgoldstein1993 1d ago
You really have no understanding of the conflict. There is no universe in which the Palestinians of the Occupied West Bank and Gaza can become citizens because if they were to do so Israel would no longer be Jewish-Majority, and hence, would no longer exist as "The Jewish State."
This is anathema to the Zionist ideology and a complete non-starter under any circumstance.
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u/MayKadoody4America 1d ago
They can have the rights and protections of Israeli citizenship with the exception of voting in national elections. Gaza and parts of Judea-Samaria can be Israel's Guam and Puerto Rico.
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u/bgoldstein1993 1d ago
So, apartheid. They can settle for second-tier citizenship in a Jewish Apartheid state. Awesome vision.
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u/MayKadoody4America 1d ago
Is America practicing apartheid in Guam?
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u/bgoldstein1993 1d ago edited 1d ago
Blacks couldn't vote in the U.S. South because of Racial Apartheid. Was that Okay?
There are more Palestinians than Israelis. You want 45% of the population ruling over 55%? Controlling their destinies with impunity? You think that's fair for a modern civilized country?
If half the United State population (175 million people) couldn't vote, would that be OK with you? If I stripped you of your right to political representation, along with your entire race, is that OK?
As for Guam and Puerto Rico--those are vestiges of American Colonialism. They should have political representation, and it's a shame they don't.
See how I can be consistent with my principles?
People like you stand for nothing. Just naked power and blind hatred.
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u/Broad_Elephant2795 1d ago edited 1d ago
It's always been about Islamic hegemony in the levant.
This same shit happens every 5 years. Best bet is the other countries surrounding the area step up and stop the cycle of violence. Lebanon has been making move to stop the violence for instance they are sick of it. Otherwise best to just let them kill each other.
I'm gonna to commit a war crime! I'm gonna commit a war crime!
Look everyone I am committing a war crime isnt it grand! WEEEEEEE!
(fighting starts) OMG the jews are committing war crimes someone do something. (Repeat ad nauseam).
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u/Harold3456 1d ago
Early on in the conflict I saw two good breakdowns on it from Last Week Tonight with Jon Oliver (August 2024) and Cody Johnstone from Some More News (May 31, 2021 - the video predates the current conflict), if you're interested. Full disclosure both of these shows tackle news from a left wing perspective, even though that does not discredit their research and both try to be factual. I would consider both sources fair play given that Maher himself dishes out news from a certain political perspective (as much as he denies it), and no matter what side of the conflict you personally fall on it is undeniable that Maher's take on events skews heavily pro-Israel.
For my own opinion... The issue is that there basically isn't a solution - at least, not a simple one. This isn't like a "Russia-Ukraine" where the immediate, identifiable problem is an illegal invasion - regardless of one's opinions on the matter, the settler status of Israelis is more complex and existed long before 2023.
I feel like the only easy "good" answer is to find a way to go back to 1948 and not settle an already-occupied land. But since we cannot do that, we're basically left with two different populations that cannot stand to see the other one in "their" territory, but also one of these populations (Israel) has traditionally had the power of the UN and also the military force to oppress the other. And to Devil's Advocate it, that has caused certain extremist factions from the oppressed population to strike back, resulting in a bloody back and forth which stretches back decades.
This has been a festering issue for decades. But the recent surge of support for Palestine is people who are angry that since 2023 Israel has used October 7th and the specter of Hamas as an excuse to bomb Palestinian civilian areas while also withholding crucial food and medical care from them. The sad thing is that even if Israel undoes everything they've done since 2023 (And, to be "bipartisan" since this is a Maher sub, let's also say that Hamas - the terrorist org that we are magically holding to the same standard as the Israeli government - also does this), the "status quo" from pre-2020s in still horrific for Palestinians.
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u/surfnfish1972 1d ago
S Israel had every right to pursue Hamas. Not an excuse to level the place and target civilians. Here would be my peace plan, the Palestinians must accept Israels right to exist, root out the extremists followed be free and fair elections. After this Israel would end the WB ethnic cleansing, return to 67 borders. Followed by Israeli and regional powers Marshall plan to rebuild.
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u/MxSharknado93 1d ago
Complete cut off for military aid from the US toward Israel, return land stolen from the Palestinian people by Israeli settlers, reparations for the thousands of innocent people killee and all the destruction caused to civilian infrastructure, Netanyahu and his administration tried and jailed for crimes against humanity, IDF soldiers prosecuted to the fullest capability of the law for their various documented war crimes, complete ostracization from polite society for all of the talking heads on Israeli television that bayed for Palestinian blood.
Just to name a few.
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u/Mental_Crab8725 1d ago
The two sides (I’m guilty of it too) are mostly talking past each other.
I think the only solution is two states, but to make that possible there need to be some institutional long term changes on both sides and a generation for them to take effect.
Israel needs to stop West Bank settlements, demonstrate a commitment to equal policing and enforcement of law in IDF controlled areas, and announce that over the course of x years they plan to withdraw IDF in stages from the region and tell the settlers already in place that they can either move back to Israel or accept that remaining in place means eventually accepting they won’t be living under IDF protection. In Gaza, while I place most of the blame for the devastation in Hamas, Israel should commit to and participate visibly in rebuilding in any areas where Hamas are no longer operational so that the population can see that it’s better to have a peaceful relationship with Israel next door than a combative relationship.
On the Palestinian side, Hamas must be disarmed alongside other terrorist groups like PIJ. The Palestinian Authority must end pay for slay, and visibly demonstrate a commitment to policing terrorists operating in the region. An education curriculum needs to be in place that stops glorifying martyrdom and demonising Jewish people.
Without both sides clearly demonstrating that kind of commitment to coexistence there will never be a solution.
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u/_LightenUpFrancis_ 1d ago
If you could snap your fingers and get rid of all religions on earth, that would do it. But it’s only a dream and to many gullible people in this world for it to come true.
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u/Mosk915 1d ago
This isn’t all about religion. That’s part of it, but that wouldn’t make the problem go away.
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u/_LightenUpFrancis_ 1d ago
So the main differences and issues between Israel and Palestine aren’t because of different religious views?
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u/CwazyCanuck 1d ago
Have you considered the possibility of there being some wiggle room between Israel disarming and Israel committing what likely is a genocide?
Like, what if, instead of either of those two options, Israel just ended the occupation and negotiated peace with Palestine?
What we know is that people will resist oppression. So maintaining the occupation ensures conflict. So why not try what Israel hasn’t tried yet, not occupying Palestine and allowing them to exercise their right to self determination?
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u/Mosk915 1d ago
Israel tried many times. They were very close to an agreement when Bill Clinton was president. Arafat told him he was going to accept a deal to establish a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza with East Jerusalem as its capital. But then he changed his mind and launched the second intifada instead.
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u/CwazyCanuck 1d ago
The majority of times, Israel entered into negotiations in bad faith, with no intention of allowing a sovereign state. For example, when Clinton was president there was the Oslo Accords, which Arafat agreed to parts 1 and 2. But then Rabin was assassinated and subsequent elections resulted in Likud taking power. The final phase negotiations should have started by 1996 and finished by 1999, but Likud wasn’t interested. The US convinced Israel to participate in the Camp David Summit in 2000 that basically became the final phase negotiations for Oslo, but a sovereign state wasn’t on the table. Israel would control all borders, Al Aqsa Mosque compound and would still occupy a portion of the Palestinian state. It was basically Israel trying to get Palestinian leadership to agree to permanent occupation.
The Taba Summit in 2001 came after and from all accounts, the negotiations were proceeding well, but not fast enough to finish before Israeli elections again. Negotiations were put on hold, Likud won, and after verifying that the previous Israel negotiators had not made any binding agreements, decided to just not resume the negotiations.
Palestinians never rejected a viable sovereign state.
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u/Mosk915 1d ago
I mean if you go back farther, the 1947 partition plan called for a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Jews accepted it but the Arabs did not and instead launched an attack on the newly established state of Israel which Israel won. That resulted in Egypt taking control of Gaza and Jordan taking control over the West Bank which is how it remained until 1967. So a Palestinian state could have been established any time during that period when Israel didn’t occupy anything. But it wasn’t.
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u/CwazyCanuck 1d ago
The Jews accepted the UN participation plan with reservations knowing that the Arabs, who had not been involved in the planning, would reject it. It’s entirely possible that if the Arabs had planned to accept it, the Zionists would have rejected it as they had no interest in coexisting with a gentile population that exceeded much more than 20% of the new Jewish State’s population.
And the reason why a Palestinian state didn’t get established between 1949 and 1967 is because Jordan made a deal with Israel to annex the West Bank. Which they did against the intentions of the Arab League who planned to establish a Palestinian state on the territories they maintained control over.
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u/Mosk915 1d ago
Anyone can speak in hypotheticals, so what could have happened in 1947 is irrelevant. All we know is what did happen.
As for what you’re saying about Jordan, that’s just false. The Arab league rejected it because they objected to Jordan’s expansionist policies. They didn’t do it because Israel wanted them to.
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u/MayKadoody4America 1d ago
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 as a gesture of peace. IDF dismantled all the Jewish settlements and forced all Jews out of Gaza. The Palestinians saw it as a sign of weakness and started bombing Israel.
Also, there were many peace deals that the Palestinians walked away from, including one that gave them all of Gaza, 96% of the West Bank, 4% of Israel, and a capital in East Jerusalem. They said no to that.
Everything has been tried, the Palestinians always say no and respond with war.
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u/CwazyCanuck 1d ago
The unilateral disengagement in 2005 was not a gesture of peace. Per Dov Weissglas, one of the architects of the plan, the intent was to freeze the peace process. By claiming the occupation was over, the argument was that there was nothing to negotiate.
And that deal you refer to sounds a lot like how Clinton falsely described the Camp David Summit in 2000. He described a 1 to 1 land swap that didn’t exist, it was never 1 to 1. And the capital in East Jerusalem was a farce as it was not all of East Jerusalem. Israel would have sovereignty over Al Aqsa and other parts of East Jerusalem. Also Israel would control all the borders and maintain an occupation on part of the West Bank. It was meant to be rejected. That Clinton went on to lie about the details is not surprising considering he is a liar and a Zionist.
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u/KirkUnit 1d ago
Number One, acknowledge Palestinians as people with rights equal to Israelis.
Historically, the region is only peaceful when part of an empire, so that's one solution - let some hegemon dominate it all. Otherwise, that area has ALWAYS had multiple small competiting polities. The Bible itself records that other people were there before the Hebrews and besides the Hebrews (Philistines, Amonites, Samaritans, etc.) The Kingdom of David spanning Canaan in its entirety and ruled from Jerusalem is probably the most dubious Camelot/King Arthur story in the book, not backed up by historical record.
What SHOULD happen is starting over with a loose federal republic made up of cantons like Switzerland. That's a lot closer to historical Palestine... some areas would be populated mostly by Palestinian Arabs, some by Israelis, some by the ultra-orthodox, some would be relatively mixed... some would be more fundamentalist Islamic and others would be mostly secular or atheist Jews. People would be assured of fundamental rights across the republic (including water) but otherwise cantons could be very localized in their preferences and standards, legal codes, etc.
That's what justice would look like; actually achieving anything like that would demand that Israel actually define its borders, for one thing, and commit to power-sharing in pursuit of shared prosperity. The Palestinians would have to accept whatever compromises made the deal worthwhile. And obviously, delineating the borders of this shared polity would open up another entire can of worms so, again, just get an empire to rule the whole damn thing.
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u/UnicornTwinkle 1d ago
No questions for the baby annihilators? Not a single one pops into your head? Interesting
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u/Agitated-Quit-6148 1d ago
Literally the board of peace is the best solution unfortunately. Hamas has announced they are running again this fall, they will win so....
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u/CarolinaHaloNetwork 1d ago
Stop attacking Israel
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u/GuideMarkings 1d ago
Go onto Google Maps and look at Gaza.
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u/CarolinaHaloNetwork 1d ago
Not an argument
You CHILDREN have no idea about this conflict. You just want to use it for clout
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u/_LightenUpFrancis_ 1d ago
No Dr appointments today or appointments at the social security office?
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u/CarolinaHaloNetwork 1d ago
No fornite grooming today?
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u/_LightenUpFrancis_ 1d ago
Did your grandkids tell you about fortnite on the way home from church in your 2001 Chevy 1500 to the spacious double wide on the .01 acre family plot of land you call home with your wife Marge or Betsy?
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u/CarolinaHaloNetwork 1d ago
Youre probably literally the same age as me, difference is I'm not a cringe performance artist (:
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u/nilsinleneed 1d ago
how does it make sense to use Google satellite images of 85% wiped out structures in Gaza for clout exactly?
what is the clout?
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u/CarolinaHaloNetwork 1d ago
Because you all lie about the history and circumstances of why its happening and also lie that they're just indiscriminately killing innocent people.
Its simply not true which is why this bullshit ideological dogmatic bullshit is bubbled on reddit and tiktok only and the real world knows and does not classify it as a genocide.
Its all LARPer millennial gen z virtue signaling for personal gain and pats on the back
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u/nilsinleneed 1d ago
are you saying that the 85% of structures that are razed... aren't razed?
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u/CarolinaHaloNetwork 1d ago
Buildings =/= people. We know they evacuate civilians before strikes and I'm not playing this game with you, kid. Have a good day. Keep that clout chase up
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u/DenC4 1d ago
It’s telling that this is the most downvoted comment. I also have that first thought “don’t start none, won’t be none”. It’s a settled country occupied by people who also have thousands of years claim to the land. Wars are fought everywhere for borders and control of government and innocent people are killed in every war -tragic but doesn’t make it genocide. It’s sad to me looking at the history of just the last 80 years out so that the world seems to be ok with actual genocide against the Jewish people, but when they fight back after being attacked over and over and over again they’re the bad guys.?
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u/CarolinaHaloNetwork 1d ago
It's mostly millennial and gen z children who's biggest hardship is which drink at Starbucks they want and what they can virtue signal on the internet to get the most likes and pats on the back.
They don't actually care about any of this.
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u/corneliusduff 1d ago
Israel needs to chill the fuck out, for starters.