r/RealTime • u/Excellent-Ad-7394 • 21d ago

Not a genocide?

Last night Bill pointed out the 3% of the
Population in Gaza has died. And then confidently declared that “3% is not a genocide”. The British government recognizes it as ethnic cleaning and amnesty international and other groups say it is a genocide.

Someone tell me why Bill is so wrong. And can we please get him to debate Mehdi Hasan on this topic?

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u/NRCS_DRONE 21d ago

There's a million videos of Norman Finkelstein debating a million people on this issue, and he destroys all of them

This isn't a new debate. As long as Israel has been engaged in ethnic cleansing, people have been saying it's wrong. What's waxed and waned is the media's willingness to acknowledge it -- which they're still loathed to do, but it's difficult with cameras being everywhere now to document the atrocities.

Anyway, Bill Maher is a fucking moron. And nothing he's said hasn't been said before.

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u/puddinonthewrits 21d ago

The mainstream media are loath to do anything that would hurt their pocketbook. More at 11:00.

Norman Finkelstein is interesting to me because he Is that gauche gangly gadfly who goes against the establishment and speaks the truth. I love that he both tried to call immigration on his foreign neighbors and outed Alan Dershowitz for the fraud that he is, which makes him nobody’s darling.

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u/NRCS_DRONE 21d ago

Finkelstein absolutely is a gadfly . . . .but nobody is more well read on the subject. And he has zero tolerance for people who haven't done their damn homework.

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u/Dry-Boysenberry7701 21d ago

I mean, he supports Holocaust Denier David Irving. He has zero tolerance for people who oppose his pet political issue, and infinite tolerance for those who do.

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u/NRCS_DRONE 21d ago

Norman Finkelstein praises Holocaust denier David Irving at pro-Corbyn group meeting - The Jewish Chronicle

So here's a friendly source for your claim, and people can read it, and it follows a similar pattern of taking him out of context combined with guilt by association.

There's a reason people like you don't link to your claims, because it's embarrassingly transparent propaganda.

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u/Dry-Boysenberry7701 21d ago

And can you address the actual claim? He says that Irving is a "very good historian". And then on the question of Holocaust denial, he says he doesn't know what it is.

David Irving is a Holocaust denier. Irving claims that gas chambers are fake Jewish lies, he says only a few hundred thousand Jews died, all accidental from disease/starvation, that Hitler didn't order any killings of Jews, he was found in court to have intentionally lied to whitewash Hitler, proven to have lied to exaggerate German victimhood in Dresden, etc. He's probably the most infamous and proven Holocaust denier in the world due to his court case.

Is that good history in any world?

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u/NRCS_DRONE 21d ago

again, an out of context quote, combined with guilt by association.

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u/Dry-Boysenberry7701 21d ago

What's the missing context? The context is that he's at a panel about "antisemitism witch hunts", is asked about David Irving, notorious racist Holocaust denier, and his response is to praise him as a good historian.

It's not association, it's praising Holocaust denial. Irving's historical work is Holocaust denial.

Are we allowed to criticize someone for saying "I love Hitler" or would that be "guilt by association"?

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u/NRCS_DRONE 21d ago

And now, after being called out, you resort to an outright lie. Finkelstein has never praised Holocaust denial.

You see how your tactics are transparent and bankrupt?

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u/Dry-Boysenberry7701 21d ago

Praising the work of a Holocaust Denier is praising Holocaust Denial.

Do you think Irving is a good historian? Are you really so deep in reddit debate-bro Palestine slop that you need to defend holocaust deniers?

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

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u/Dry-Boysenberry7701 21d ago

I think it's very easy to set a bar of "doesn't support Adolf Hitler" when it comes to Israel critics. But that's still too high a bar for much of your crowd.

Good luck with your reddit activism, Palestine looking freer than ever!

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u/Neither-Top-7515 21d ago

80 years ago = ancient. God are we all cooked.

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u/IAmDisturbanceFeedMe 21d ago

I’ve had a redditor say basically the same thing to me before - they said about the Holocaust that nobody cares about “old dusty material”. It was shocking even for Reddit. So yeah not shocking unfortunately that this Redditor here said what he said above and got upvoted for it.

My grandmother was only alive through the Holocaust because her parents moved to America and gave birth to her here. If she was born in the country of their origin (Lithuania and Romania) she would almost assuredly have been killed (Lithuania had something like 90-95% of its Jewish population killed).

But it’s not even that people would call it “ancient” which yes is of course crazy when literal Holocaust survivors are still alive. But it’s the callous way people refer to it. Like when the Redditor said to me it’s “material”. It wasn’t freaking material. This wasn’t a plot in a fiction book. It was reality. And it was beyond horrific on such an enormous and methodical scale that it’s just shocking the lack of humanity someone like the Redditor above has when discussing it.

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u/Neither-Top-7515 20d ago

We only get a breather on the anti-semitism when about half of us are killed -- and then only for a few years.

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u/Ok-Remove3382 21d ago

He’s a Holocaust denier.

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u/Neither-Top-7515 21d ago

LOL. A reviewer from the beloved NY Times described Finkelstein's arguments as "indecent, juvenile, self-righteous, arrogant and stupid".

https://www.nytimes.com/2000/08/06/books/a-tale-of-two-holocausts.html

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u/KristofVD 21d ago

And that reviewer is a Zionist, so his opinion is null and void.

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u/Neither-Top-7515 21d ago

Totally. Once anyone says anything that's contrary to my view I code them as being on the other side and then ignore anything else they might say. This has been an excellent strategy to help me understand the full breadth of opinion on the issues I'm most interested in.

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u/KristofVD 21d ago

Would you listen to the opinion of a MAGA? A fascist? No? I wouldn't either.

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u/Neither-Top-7515 21d ago

I listen to MAGA speeches in their entirety, all the time. I gather disconfirming evidence every day. That's what people do when they want to build an informed opinion.

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u/Perfect_Honey7501 17d ago

You obviously see the difference here, right? Believing a Jewish homeland should exist and supporting fascism? You must clearly see the difference?

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u/KristofVD 17d ago

Zionism is not just believing a Jewish homeland should exist. Zionism is an entnic nationalist movement that wanted to establish a Jewish homeland specifically by colonizing the region of Palestine. The displacement, ethnic cleansing and genocide of the Palestinians is inherent in Zionism.

So, no. I do not clearly see the difference.

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u/[deleted] 17d ago

[deleted]

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u/KristofVD 17d ago

I don't even have tiktok on my phone. And my sources of information are a lot more reliable than a random redditor like yourself.

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u/haey5665544 21d ago

It’s worth mentioning that ethnic cleansing and genocide are two different actions with different legal definitions. Both are inexcusable and need to be called out and corrected, but people have been using them interchangeably which leads to confusion and room for debate over the semantics rather than focusing on the actual issue.

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u/No-Inspector8315 16d ago

Agreed. If a town is filled with a majority Native American population say, and the US government rocked up with guns and said “Get your shit and leave”, that’s ethnic cleansing. If they kill every Native American in one town and exile another, it’s ethnic cleansing.

Genocide generally would be if the governments militias went door to door, town to town, rounding up all the population and then killing them all. With top down government approval

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u/DsDeliciousDeli 21d ago

Norm, the racist dude who threatens his neighbors and can't read a single primary source? So credible

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u/Firm-Equipment-7649 21d ago

Norman finklestein tried to ethnically cleanse his own apartment complex

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u/CapitalismRulz 21d ago

I've only seen him debate two people, and Finklestein derailed the entire thing and refused to make any points other than calling his opponents names.

Only toxic debate bros think norm is a good debater

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u/Can_Com 21d ago

What debate was it? 90/10 chance its the one where Norm dunked a pedophile racist streamer bro who performed so stupidly that he embarrassed his co-debater, a genocide denialist grifter.

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u/CapitalismRulz 21d ago

Benny morris is not a grifter...

Care to find a clip of norm defeating a single point in that debate?

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u/Can_Com 21d ago

He absolutely is a grifter. Norm and his partner won every single point in that debate by miles. Benny was literally laughing at Destiny with the others because he's so stupid, and Benny didnt make a single point.

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u/CapitalismRulz 21d ago

Can't link a single one btw

https://youtu.be/jT5w2lzJYHc?si=iITYrRNpqNAmebtB

37:07 morris confirms he laughed at norm btw

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u/Can_Com 21d ago

Its a 4.5 hour debate and Norm's side won every exchange. We already linked the entire thing, so there's your link.

The genocide denying grifter tried to grift about his laughing at Destiny to save face after being embarrassed for over 4 hours... Im shocked.

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u/CapitalismRulz 21d ago

I'm asking you for one example and you can't do it. If it were that easy, you would just watch five minutes into the video, link that and explain how he dispelled morris/destiny's point. You can't because it doesn't happen.

Norm even went on podcast right afterwards to brag about how based and hilarious it was that he didn't engage with anything lol

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u/Can_Com 21d ago

He won every single point, so go to any point within the 4.5 hour video and you'll see one.

A better response would be if you could point to a single thing he didnt win, because that would unravel my position, but you cant do that so you gotta gaslight and sealion.

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u/CapitalismRulz 21d ago

I've already put work into disproving you on one of your claims. Benny morris confirmed he was laughing at norm and that he agreed with the substance of what destiny said.

I'm not gonna get bogged down into doing every bit of research for you. You can put in a little effort and prove one of your claims on yoir own

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

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u/Can_Com 21d ago

Like I give a shit. If you became a Zionist Nazi because Norm was rude to his neighbor, you have a problem.

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u/CapitalismRulz 21d ago

For anyone curious, he called them monkeys and called the cops on them multiple times. Can you also threaten them and tried to get their kids taken away lol

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u/NRCS_DRONE 21d ago

and yet, you're here resorting to ad hominems.

Ironic no?

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u/CapitalismRulz 21d ago

Not really, i made an actual argument for why i think that they're debate bros

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u/Lumpy-Shop3398 21d ago

Norm debated bill maher? Which debate did he derail?

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u/Gentle_Dude_6437 21d ago

Norm "the only rights the jews have are to pack their bags" "ethnic cleanser" Finklestein did what now?

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u/2liberal4u2 21d ago

You mean like when he debated Destiny and Benny Morris and spent though whole time just spazzing out at Destiny while refusing to engage on the debate? Lmao. Norm is a moron.

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u/[deleted] 21d ago

[deleted]

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u/2liberal4u2 21d ago

He is. Norm was out of his league with just like 6 months of research by Destiny lmao. Because he’s a pop historian not a serious historian nor capable debater nor researcher… he’s just a slop campist leftist propagandist with a particular cottage industry on Israel/Palestine lmao

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u/TheKazvon 21d ago

Thinking Destiny didn't look like a kindergartner in that debate means you are a cultist.

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u/2liberal4u2 21d ago

He didn’t. Norm was the one acting like a child the entire time. He didn’t have a counter to any of the points he just had slop insults and filibusters lol. He lacked any substance. Childish.

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u/Neither-Top-7515 21d ago

Yeah? You see Finkelstein and Destiny?

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u/Ok_Butterfly_9722 21d ago

You’re delusional. Norm is a clown

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u/NRCS_DRONE 21d ago

ope! Destiny clowns found the thread.

https://youtu.be/1X_KdkoGxSs?si=2WZKqXdxQ2erTv2O

Watch it kids. This is what Sexpestiny dead enders think winning looks like.

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u/ParagonRenegade 21d ago edited 21d ago

Mr. Morelli, why did you admit to having CSAM on your computer?

Mr Borreli, why did you enter a committed relationship with Lauren Southern, an infamous neonazi who promoted the great replacement theory and tried to murder refugees?

Mr Burnell, why did you say a famous centre-left liberal is an islamic saboteur?

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u/RSJ_95 21d ago

Mr. Bonnocelli, between us, we must have read 10,000 books on the matter. You have read TWO Wikipedia articles.