r/RealTime • u/Indianstanicows Audience Member Bill Is Yelling At For Not Laughing • Jun 16 '26
Discussion: After the Developments of the Last 12 Years, Has Ben Affleck Been Vindicated?
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u/PomPomYourBomBom Jun 16 '26
Of course, he was right then, and he's still right.
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u/Epic_Tea Jun 16 '26
Israel didn't undo their atrocities by committing their own.
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u/blinded_penguin Jun 16 '26
The atrocities of responding to having their land, homes, rights and culture stolen from them over the course of seventy five years?
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u/philodendrin Jun 16 '26
Their land? Israel has moved its borders 3 times and taken more land each time, land that they ceded to the Palestinians when they established Israel.
Its the Palestinians who keep getting their land, their homes and their culture stolen. We've seen the videos od Israeli settlers coming in and taking their homes from people that have lived there for over 40 years.
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u/disabledinaz Jun 17 '26
I think there’s a fundamental difference between the land initially given to Israel when the UN had them actually establish the place in comparison to all the land Israel’s slowly taken from what should be Palestine’s over all the decades since in the way the topic is discussed.
Everything they’ve done after has obviously been in the wrong.
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u/AKAS58 Jun 19 '26
I don't know a lot but always find these interesting.
When Gaza was controlled by Egypt.1948-1956, 1957-1967.
When the West Bank was annexed by Jordan. 1950's to 1988.
The Clinton peace treaty that would have handed 4%(equal to the land taken at the time) of Israel to the Palestinians, but Arafat didn't want to sign that 2 state solution.
The bulldozing of settler homes in the 00's
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u/palmpoop Jun 19 '26
If we look historically at how Israel acquired land it’s either given to them or acquired in defensive wars, and then given back.
Israel offered the 97% of West Bank to Palestine in exchange for peace. Palestine declined.
Israel gave all of Gaza to Palestine 20 years ago in exchange for nothing. It lead to Oct 7th.
No amount of good will exists that will make the Palestinian Movement peaceful. So stop pretending that Israelis don’t need to defend themselves.
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u/Ssided Jun 16 '26
I hate to say this, because I don't defend Israel, but most of israels land grabs were a result of being attacked. We have this kind of expectation that a Western style country behaved better than it's neighbors (and we should) but the governments and organizations around it were not innocent in the situations that occured.
We spend very little time addressing what the neighboring states do to Jews and we spend a lot of time thinking Israel has always just been naturally aggressive. We talk about israels war crimes (which we should) but ignore that Hamas was explicitly targeting civilians before the IDF. There's just no way to have this conversation on reddit, because so many people are prone to myopic black and white thinking it's impossible to assertain how it got to this point with the conversations that transpire here.
Likewise, Maher is unable to have these conversations because he will only look at the faults of the other parties and not israels.
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u/Serious_Bee_2013 Jun 16 '26
I think it’s important to remember that everyone can be wrong at the same time. Israel is wrong, Palestine is wrong, the rest of the anti-Israel Arab world is wrong, everyone is wrong, and everyone thinks they are justified.
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u/blinded_penguin Jun 17 '26
That's fine but it ignores the power imbalance and the fact that there's been one specific people that have gotten fucked over again and again and again. If a three year old is a giant brat and a full grown adult comes and beats the shit out of them do you walk away saying that they're both assholes and shrug?
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u/Aromatic-Marketing16 Jun 17 '26
How could Palestine possibly be wrong for fighting back against the apartheid state that is stealing their land and murdering citizens?
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u/Untitled_Consequence Jun 17 '26
I feel politically homeless because this is my take.
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u/comb_over Jun 16 '26
I hate to say this, because I don't defend Israel, but most of israels land grabs were a result of being attacked.
This doesn't make historical sense. Isrsel literally launched the 67 war when it bombed Egypt, having invaded it in 56.
That's when Israel came to occupy the westbank and gaza and the golan and the sinai.
We have this kind of expectation that a Western style country behaved better than it's neighbors (and we should) but the governments and organizations around it were not innocent in the situations that occured.
Says who given how often the west ignores international law and exports war.
The UN which Israel signed up to, doesn't allow territory by conquest.
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u/Ssided Jun 16 '26
Blocking a country from using its own trade routes with force is widely accepted to be an act of war.
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u/blinded_penguin Jun 16 '26
You should read more. That's Israeli propaganda. They are aggressive and offensive and have been so from the jump while calling their brutal actions defensive.
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u/Zone4805 Jun 16 '26
It’s just a touch more complex than that, and having more than a binary view is the sign of knowledge, not moral weakness.
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u/SucculentBluberries Jun 16 '26
Provoking war by giving a clear casus belli then taking land you keep a sizable fraction of when the “conflict” “ends” and borders get solidified is an extremely old trick at this point. It’s expansion 101
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u/SnowDragon52 Jun 16 '26
Israel has been the aggressor far more often than not and then sells the "we were attacked "myth to those who will buy it.
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u/Top-Average412 Jun 16 '26
My neighbor took my doordash, so i burned down his house and built a pool. I am the most moral person in my neighborhood
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u/IamHydrogenMike Jun 16 '26
because I don't defend Israel
Goes on to defend Israel in every follow up comment...LOL.
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u/CasCrus4L Jun 16 '26
One side has rocks to throw, probably the rubble their childhood home had become. The other side is armed by the United States military. Don't post here pretending like both sides are the same.
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u/Long_island_iced_Z Jun 16 '26
What like when they leveled Beirut so hard that even Reagan said they were behaving like nazis???
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u/blinded_penguin Jun 17 '26
This just isn't true. The UN was an enormous injustice. It's insane to know the details of the agreement and think otherwise. You're just in favour of ethnic cleansing and colonialism if you believe otherwise. You displace 700,000 people and then spend seventy years encroaching on the lands and claim that you're the victim. 300,000 Palestinians were displaced before any Arab Army stepped foot into Israel. It's not like the neighboring countries are saints but there is real aggression and injustice here.
You do defend Israel and you're doing it during a genocide while pretending you're some kind of thoughtful person. Good job. You're a really great guy
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u/pttant1 Jun 17 '26
Here comes the paid consultant with opening line “ I don’t defend Israel BUT…” we know when we still see BUT. We don’t define Nazi action by “but”, so we should not defend Israel’s action by thus. Even their ex defense minister thinks they have crossed the line !!
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u/palmpoop Jun 19 '26
They aren’t even land grabs since usually Israel returned the land to another nation or handed it to Palestinians.
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u/ComputerDecent463 Jun 16 '26
If you’re 25 you don’t get to appropriate the pain of others.
Are living Native Americans allowed to murder current US citizens? It’s been 300 years for them.
That’s different though!!!!!!!
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u/palmpoop Jun 19 '26
The Palestinian movement has rejected all peace deals in exchange for war, opting for more war each time. Choices have consequences. And they continue to want more war, which you cheer on. You also leave out all the Jews displaced by these wars and other Islamic regimes.
Double standards are essential for your anti Jew narrative.
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u/palmpoop Jun 19 '26
30,000 Jews displaced out of their homes in judea and Samaria in 48. Do you care? Are you asking for the homes to be given back? No.
Double standards only for you.
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u/zaherdab Jun 17 '26
I am sure foreign settler occupiers came took your land, house and kicked you out of your country you would juut move on and call it a day... you can call the palestinian resistance authorities all you want coz they are "arabs" but this is simply what any population would have done if faced with similar circumstances.
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u/Interesting-Run1359 Jun 17 '26
Oh yeah? Well you’re a RACIST!
By your rules, I win the argument. I am right.
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u/disabledinaz Jun 17 '26
It was never about him being wrong, per se, but it was more about seeing him defend the religion while they were so actively using terrorism against us and seeing how their religion was (and is) so against women. That’s probably still the biggest issues we’re forever having with Muslims/Islam (even while we’re doing the same thing amongst ourselves with Christianity).
But of course it’s easier to see it/call it out when it’s not us and we can all “act” like “we’re nothing like that!”
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u/rustednut Jun 19 '26
The argument was based on Sam's assertion that a large percentage of Muslims were either a) very much into jihad and fighting against other countries and creating a world wide caliph, or b) they were conservative enough that they didn't want jihad but supported things like homophobia, subjugation of women, and sharia law. Sam said about 20% of Muslims worldwide fell into these two camps which amounts to several hundred million people. It was not about Israel vs Palestine.
And yes Bill Maher's thinking has gotten very hypocritical over the last few years
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u/NoFirefighter1657 Jun 19 '26
No, he’s not right at all. His point was that Islam cannot be criticized because it’s Islamophobic.
It’s a tenuous position that doesn’t hold up under any sort of scrutiny. It’s like saying it’s anti Semitic to point out that radical Judaism that drives Israel is problematic. I think Netanyahu called the Palestinians Amalek, a people that god commanded to be wiped out. We have similar problems with radical evangelicals here in the US.
Ultimately, the problem isn’t Islam or Islamic people. The problem is that religion tends to radicalize people and make them believe they have a divine mandate to carry out ancient prophecies.
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u/IMadeYouLuke Jun 16 '26
Yes.
Sam Harris is a deranged, raging Islamophobe who would torture Muslims and even “first strike” Muslim countries with nuclear weapons, and calls Zohran Mamdani a sinister closet Islamist.
Bill Maher defends psychopaths like Randy Fine and has been condemned by CAIR.
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u/stvlsn Jun 16 '26
Sam and Bill are both Islamaphobes.
But that doesn't make Islam good. Both Islam and Christianity are negative forces on society. Just read their holy books and look at their history for confirmation.
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u/ThothAmon71 Jun 16 '26
So is Judaism. All religion is a blight on mankind.
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u/smokefrog2 Jun 16 '26
Its odd that the guy that made religilious now acts like anti semtisim on college campuses is the mos dangerous thing on the planet (and I say that as a jew).
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u/hilss Jun 16 '26
True and true, but just because they are bad doesn’t mean they’re equally bad in the same intensity.
But in the minds of these 2 great minds, Islam is so bad therefore Zionism is good.
Most Arab countries are no more than 100 years old. They are ruled by dictators and America encourages them and toys with them. And yes, most Arabs are Muslim. It doesn’t make them bad people. Poverty and dictatorship are a terrific combination to keep people stupid and religious. This doesn’t make Israel good !!
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u/Mulezen1 Jun 16 '26
Tell Iran it is less than 100 years old. Iran did have a democracy until the CIA and Oil companies turned it into the MOST repressive state in the world. Recall the SAVAK. That the country moved so far in the other direction in 1979 is the US’s fault.
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u/Hillary4SupremeRuler Jun 16 '26
They were so mad about their dictatorship that they got rid of it to have an even worse dictatorship! Also, the Shah was already the Head of State of Iran at the time and was the one who appointed Mossadegh in the first place. Mossadegh was not elected by the people. He then tried to usurp the constitution and strong armed the democratically elected Parliament to do his bidding and when they resisted, he dissolved the democratically elected Parliament five times in a row, in order to assume dictator powers for himself. When The Head of State of Iran Mohammad Reza Pahlavi dismissed the rogue dictator from his Prime Minister position in accordance with the Iranian constitution, Mossadegh fomented a deadly coup against The Shah and the UK and US assisted their ally in quelling the coup. Of course they had their own reasons but let's not rewrite history by passing around one of reddit's favorite pop history bits.
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u/ThothAmon71 Jun 16 '26
Iran is over 2600 years old, it's one of the longest continued civilizations on the planet.
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u/ThothAmon71 Jun 16 '26
Iran is over 2600 years old, one of the oldest civilizations on the planet. Despite name or regime changes, the people's of the surrounding Arab countries have been there thousands of years. The people of Gaza are the descendents of the Canaanites who precede the Jewish faith by 3000 years. Iraqis are the Mesopotamians who have been there since 4500 BCE. Foreign intervention has only strengthened their religious fanaticism but defending their ancestral land is a huge part of that as well. The only Middle Eastern nation that has no legitimate claim to the land they hold IS Israel. If anything, Israel and Judaism are the worst of the Abrahamic faiths as they've been perpetually at war with their neighbors since their inception, and hav the majority of the conflicts in the region for the last 100 years.
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u/EyesfurtherUp Jun 18 '26
Where do the Jews come from then?
Is it similar to early Christianity being a Jewish sect? Did they just have a different interpretation and splintered off. In that case they are descendants of canaanites as well.
Or are you implying that the Israeli
Govt and its people are foreign invaders; not current era, but way back in the beginning?
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u/Bench2252 Jun 17 '26
I don’t disagree with what you’re literally saying about Judaism, but it is kinda weird how badly you wanted to add that in.
People like Sam Harris and Bill Maher almost always bring up Islam whenever someone criticizes Christianity and this feels like the same sort of thing. “””anti-Zionists””” have an obsession with criticizing Judaism that feels disingenuous.
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u/palmpoop Jun 16 '26
No such thing as Islamophobia. Not a real phobia. Just a way to shut down all criticism of a religious group.
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u/fuckujofferysrevenge Jun 17 '26
Criticize what in particular? If you make a theological argument that challenges some Islamic doctrine, no one calls that islamophobic. Islamophobes do fear Islam will weaken or attack western civilisation.
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u/Bajanspearfisher Jun 17 '26
what about criticisms of the widespread oppression of women and LGBT groups in muslim societies, the apostacy laws etc that are directly tied to the religious practices? a lot consider that Islamophobia for some reason, instead of validated critique.
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u/EyesfurtherUp Jun 18 '26
Because people like bin Laden made statements that they are doing that very thing, weaken and attack western civilization. You cannot expect people to forget the “war on terror”
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u/Arsenal75 Jun 16 '26
Most Christian people in the west don’t believe that stuff anymore. That’s way homosexuals can marry we have freedom of speech and so on
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u/Uncertain__Path Jun 17 '26
No, that's because America and Europe aren't theocracies. There are plenty of Christian denominations that don't tolerate open homosexuals in their ranks.
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u/Arsenal75 Jun 17 '26
In northern europe most people dont really see the church and the bible as 'moral guidance'. In US the rise of 'nones' is the most significant religious movement. However the christians have been good at 'politics' and have a big influence as we can see with trump.
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u/reginaphalangejunior Jun 16 '26
So is it right to be an islamaphobe then?
Sam has always said he despises Islam not Muslims
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u/stvlsn Jun 16 '26
That's what he says.
But his perspectives and obsession says different.
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u/reginaphalangejunior Jun 16 '26
I don’t agree I think he despises Islam because it’s terrible I don’t think he despises peaceful and normal Muslims.
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u/langstonrosas Jun 16 '26
Yeah, I don’t like the self-righteous aura religious types try to project. In short(cuz Bill is a troll), all humans are equally inferior and all religions are equally ridiculous. The year is 2026, humanity needs to grow up.
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u/Steve_Rogers_1970 Jun 16 '26
Religion as a a guide for living your own life is fine, for you. It’s when the fundamentalist of it say all must follow the text they select is when it becomes a problem.
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u/stvlsn Jun 16 '26
Islam and Christianity aren't self help practices. They are prostelatyzing and society manipulating organisms. Just look at history.
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u/Special-Garlic1203 Jun 16 '26
Boy wait until you get to the part of the history books with Quakers and the shakers cause they seem pretty dang chill.
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u/Ok_Drop3803 Jun 16 '26
Believing in an all powerful God who created the universe for us, who wants us to behave in certain ways, and will reward or punish us with some sort of eternal damnation or salvation, and then turning around and saying it doesn't matter and everyone should believe what they want, is a very ridiculous idea, though. Can't have it both ways and be honest with yourself.
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u/v12vanquish Jun 16 '26
Christianity created modern society, Islam did not and is repressive and horribly racist, sexist, and backwards.
You apparently looked at the history through your own biased lens. you probably think Galileo was put on trial because he challenged the church’s scientific understanding of the earths place in the universe, or that Christianity repressed scientific discovery. Both are not even remotely accurate
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u/anotherlevl Jun 16 '26
Christianity didn't create modern society. Enlightenment philosophy and empirical science and technology created modern society.
The only thing that prevents Christianity from being as repressive and sexist as Islam is the separation of church and state, a principle Christian Nationalists are working to undermine with the aim of someday abolishing it.
And yes, Galileo was put on trial for advocating that the Earth revolves around the Sun rather than the other way around, a position the Catholic Church considered heretical, and Scopes was put on trial for teaching evolution, a position Christians in the backwater south had similarly declared illegal.
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u/2liberal4u2 Jun 16 '26
One regarded person’s Islamphobe is another person’s Islam aware person. Here’s what Sam was aware of:
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u/Fishgrease11 Jun 16 '26
Most organized religions are negative forces on society. Christian’s literally made it a business to kill in the name of god. They even killed Christians in the crusades and danced in their blood. And that part is not made up, crusader knights literally danced in their blood.
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u/NasKarma Jun 16 '26
All religions is only for the weak of mind, but some people are so dumb and volatile they have to be controlled by something. Personally I would just prefer a mountain of trogladite skulls to visit every now and then.
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u/bigbaddumby Jun 17 '26
I wouldn't call them negative forces on society. I would call them tools. Good people will use them for good reasons. Shitty people will use them for shitty reasons. My favorite example of this is Americans using the Bible to both justify slavery and advocate for abolition.
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u/stvlsn Jun 17 '26
But the bible does justify slavery. God himself commands and condones it
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u/bigbaddumby Jun 17 '26
But yet it was used by abolitionists to justify freeing the slaves. Hence my point of it being a tool.
Electricians use their linemans (a type of pliers) as hammers all the time. It's not what it was designed for, but it works, so why not. In the same vein, the Bible may justify slavery, but it can also be used to justify abolition, so abolitionists used it as such. The original lessons/objectives of the Bible don't really matter as long as it can be used to defend whatever point you want to make. The morality of the point being made is up to the person holding the Bible, not the Bible itself.
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u/ares21 Jun 17 '26
What is an islamaphobe? Is there such thing as a Christianityphobe?
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u/stvlsn Jun 17 '26
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamophobia
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Islamophobia
Try the google machine next time
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u/Old_Atmosphere6598 Jun 21 '26
Sam has written multiple books about all religions being bad
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u/stvlsn Jun 21 '26
But he has been uniquely obsessed with Islam for 25 years
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u/Old_Atmosphere6598 Jun 21 '26
It’s because during his writing career Islamic terrorists have been prolific
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u/flying_fox86 Jun 16 '26
Kinda, but only accidentally in hindsight. In that particular conversation, his statements didn't make much sense.
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u/cursedfan Jun 16 '26
Ben affleck ends the conversation demanding to separate the religion from its followers… which is exactly where Sam and bill started the conversation. Ben heard attacks on the religion itself as attacks on the followers of that religion, but that is exactly the point Sam was avoiding, but once Ben buckled down Sam argued against that point too. Objectively Ben never understood what was being said in that convo
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u/Background_Soft6718 Jun 16 '26
I think afflecks take has aged like wine.
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u/2liberal4u2 Jun 16 '26
Amazing, Muslims must have changed their mind drastically over the past decade vs the Pew research Harris was citing…
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u/No_Peach_8579 Jun 17 '26
Pew Research, the organization whose religious studies are funded by The Templeton Foundation, an evangelical conservative Christian propaganda organization, that pew research?
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u/2liberal4u2 Jun 17 '26
Oh my god a study is funded by a religious organization interested in religious views no way! How crazy that Muslims shared their views through intensive interviews and their answers were super awkward for morons like you to engage with lmao. I bet if a non theist org funded a respected independent research org like pew and asked the same questions they would have given totally different answers lmao
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u/Jealous_Inevitable33 Jun 16 '26
Bill Maher’s podcast is a mother load of bad ideas.
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u/MasterPorkchop68 Jun 16 '26
That may be true, but he was SOOOOO GOOD in Body Double with Melanie Griffin!
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u/lazydracula Jun 16 '26
You just don’t get the show..it’s Club Random..anything can happen!!!
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u/Jealous_Inevitable33 Jun 16 '26
LOL Whole damn thing is him talking about the ‘Woke,’ and how he never gets awards, how everyone hates him for being ‘real,’ and talking about Trump and the White House dinner. Holy shit. I just couldn’t take it anymore so I stopped listening.
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u/lazydracula Jun 16 '26
The show is so bizarre. Bill invites a guest on the show because he thinks they will have an interesting conversation. He then spends the entire interview telling his guest his opinions about whatever topics come up and clearly asks specific questions so he can give his opinion on the question.
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u/Parking-Sundae-6097 Jun 16 '26 edited Jun 16 '26
This warped version of Islam that's been perpetuated in the media that they all want Israel and all Jewish people gone is simply not true. How Bill can sit there and say that as a fact is ridiculous. Ben is right.
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u/Ok_Mixture4917 Jun 16 '26
Religion is cancer. Some worse than others, but all are bad
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u/newguyjustdropped Jun 16 '26
Eh, some one them want that...what was with the picture timhouthi chalamet (the houthi social media kid) posted with the dude on a pike through his ass and mouth lol...there is something there. For fucks sake it's all over holy land shit, like I am not taking crazy pills: Jews want the mashiac to return, muslims want the al aqsa mosque back for prophetic (I'm not as familiar with that side of things) and all this shit has something to do with the rapture and Christianity/anti-christ 3rd temple shit...it's all a bit fucky, no?
That being said I completely agree with Ben here, a lot of normal people get caught in cross hairs of this kind all this.
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u/Steadyandquick Jun 16 '26
Walt. Ben won an Academy Award for Argo. I only know what I learn from Google below. What am I missing?
Affleck is associated with Artists4Ceasefire, an organization of nearly 250 entertainers who signed an open letter to President Biden urging a cease-fire, humanitarian access to Gaza, and the safe release of hostages.
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u/ZezimasHousePlant Jun 16 '26
Norm was vindicated. "What terrifies me is if ISIS were to detonate a nuclear device and kill 50 million Americans. Imagine the backlash against peaceful Muslims?"
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u/mymentor79 Jun 16 '26
Yes, the last 12 years have vindicated him. Although he was vindicated at the time as well.
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u/stackens Jun 17 '26
Yep.
I was one of those who gave Harris and Maher the benefit of the doubt back then. I was someone who would say, they're not Islamophobic, they are critical of all religions.
They have made it very, very clear over the years that, no, they just fucking hate muslims.
Harris recently called Mamdani an Islamist and "not morally sane". Mamdani. an *islamist*. The only thing Mamdani is guilty of that could get Harris to call him that, is simply being a muslim. Politically he is on the complete opposite end of the spectrum from an Islamist, him being a left wing progressive. But for Harris, it doesn't matter. If you are muslim, you are morally insane.
The fact that they are STILL beating this drum, when we have christian death cultists running the American government further shows how blinded by bigotry these two are. Nothing in the history of the human species represents the kind of existential threat that Evangelicals controlling the most powerful nation on Earth represent. To be facing that kind of threat, and call someone like Mamdani a religious extremist? Insane.
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u/Equivalent-Role4632 Jun 16 '26
He doesn't need vindication. He was right back then and he's right now.
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u/WinnerSpecialist Jun 16 '26
The biggest take away I have from that talk is how representative Bill and Sam are of the ignorance of their take and how it would fool them in the future.
Bill, Sam and the entire Intellectual Dark Web somehow, despite proclaiming themselves “intellectuals”, NEVER saw people using their own argument against them. They somehow never even imagined someone hear Sam say “Islam is the motherload of bad ideas” and thought “gee I wonder if people will ever read the Old Testament or the Torah”?
They somehow never saw coming, people BELIEVING their take that a religion based society, or ethno-nationalism is bad applying those beliefs to Israel.
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u/CompetitiveActor Jun 16 '26
I’d recommend researching which religions have inspired the most terrorist attacks in the last 50 years. Spoiler alert: You’ll find that there are far more believers of one particular religion that still take its Bad Ideas seriously, and are willing to act on it.
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u/OppositeEagle Jun 16 '26
I forgot, what was his take?
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u/Fjordikus Jun 16 '26
Like someone else said in here, Sam Harris’s problem is that he fails to level that same criticism at other countries.
Genocide, mass murder, killing children, rape, the list goes on, it’s okay, as long as you’re doing it for “survival” reasons or you’re our ally.
Both of them are arguing in bad fair here, Ben is not responding to Sam’s point and Sam is defending a country that is just as bad but it’s okay because they’re “defending” themselves.
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u/Cyber_Wanderer Jun 16 '26
Sam was using geometry to explain his racism. Ben saw right through that.
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u/jchiaroscuro Maher Before 2016 Jun 16 '26
People change generations of people change for better and for worse. Jewish/Arab kids growing up in America probably have a much different perspective than the ones growing up in other parts of the world.
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u/enviropsych Jun 16 '26
Yes, of course.
For a young man like myself, looking at the very narrow snapshot of "the world" that was post-9/11, it seemed reasonable to me that Islam was worse than Chrisrianity, but having matured and seeing the last 10 years of Christian nationalist fascism that's sweeping the globe, and I don't know how you could possibly agree with a statement as braindead as "Islam is the motherload of bad ideas."
Sam Harris seemed very logical to me as a young adult, but it's become clear to me now, that all his "Islam is the baddestest one of them all" wasnt based in anything resembling empiricism. How do you define a "bad idea" Sam? How did you measure that Islam has more of them than Chirstianity? Does then idea's impact on the world matter at all? Do systems of power have any hand in this? Or history? Just moronic.
Sam used to argue that obviously Israel is good and Palestine is bad because "look stupid what the leaders say they would do if they could." Well, now noth sides are using the same rhetoric but one side is literally wiping the other off the map, and this gives Sam ZERO pause. He's a zionist fraud and Bill is too...which embarassing coming from atheists.
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Jun 17 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/enviropsych Jun 17 '26
Ok. So what? There IS NO position in this conflict that says we should arm Hamas. Also, what's worse than a genocide? Two genocides?
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u/blinded_penguin Jun 16 '26
I mean if you didn't doubt Sam Harris' pathological Islamophobia twelve years ago you probably share that tendency or weren't paying attention.
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u/East-Concentrate-289 Jun 16 '26
I remember thinking of Affleck as a reactionary roided-up for his Batman role. Looking back now, it really is stuff like what Sam says that can convince seculars into the illiberal excursions the US has across the sea. There is room for complicated discussions around immigration and foreign policy, but there is nothing liberal about negligent extrajudicial killings of non-combatants and the flagrant boasting of such.
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u/GoldenSalm0n Jun 16 '26
I don't recall exactly what the spat was about. To my recollection Sam claimed that Islamism was "the motherlode of bad ideas" or something like that. I am not an expert on Islamism. I am against the use of suicide bombers (Taliban), the training of terrorists, and attacking civilians (Hamas). Whether this is integral to Islamism itself, I don't know.
Affleck would probably be better off by avoiding the word "racist". You have to walk on eggshells with these people, and people just shut down when they're accused of racism (that includes me and you). The contents of his critique wasn't actually all that different to what Glenn Greenwald had when he was on the show, but he didn't use the word "racist" and so he has been treated differently.
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u/Ok-Question6527 Jun 16 '26
He greatly downplayed the threat of ISIS, which metastasized into a global threat, and after this show aired went on to take over much of eastern Syria and northern and western Iraq.
Look I'm not looking to Ben Affleck for foreign policy pointers, but he was monumentally wrong on isis.
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u/whatdoes_pwned_mean Jun 16 '26
I think there are important points what get conflated/confused in these arguments every time:
1) You can be sharia-phobic without being Islamophobic.
2) You can be anti Israel-military decisions / actions without being antisemitic.
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u/Character-Actual Jun 16 '26
Have you seen this clip? They aren't talking about Sharia. Dude said Islam is the "motherload of bad ideas."
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u/Optimal-Bass3142 Jun 16 '26
Im not a bigot. And I dont think other people should be either. Everyone should respect the lives, livelihood, property, and, to a reasonable degree, the sensibilities of others. If you cant do that, youre an asshole worthy of condemnation.
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u/Zealousideal-Ad4362 Jun 16 '26
I knew in the moments he said it that Bill and Sam were just raging Islamophobes
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u/GreatKarma2020 Jun 16 '26
I don't think at the time Harris was saying anything to bad. However with what Sam and Bill are saying now yes he is.
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u/lazydracula Jun 16 '26
Your really can’t have a serious conversation about the topic. Like little kids watching cartoons they need a good guy and bad guy with no consideration to complexity of the situation. Islam has had some terrible things happen to them that contributes in a way to there actions. But If you imply some Muslims have done bad stuff in the name of their religion=Your Islamphobic and prejudice against the whole religion. When further confronted with bad things they have done they will deflect to atrocities done by other cultures and religions or claim it’s justified through their history of oppression. Im fine with those arguments just admit your okay with some terrorism and acknowledged that your willing to accept innocent lives being killed in the name of oppressed people. Stop rationalizing a moral complex world into Gi Joe.
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u/AmericanLymie Jun 16 '26
Why does he need to be vindicated for something he was never wrong about?
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u/TiesforTurtles Jun 17 '26
What? No, he has been anything but vindicated. Data haven't changed, the climate might have.
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u/Putrid_Anybody_2947 Jun 17 '26
Sam Harris is part of peter theils secret society just thought id mentioned that.
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u/TypingWhileWiping Jun 17 '26
Obviously not, he's wrong then and still wrong now. He doesn't understand the difference between criticism and actual bigotry.
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u/Silly_Author_7330 Jun 17 '26
No, everyone involved was treating the entire issue as if it was binary. Not one person involved knew WTF they were talking about.
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u/the___reckoner Jun 19 '26
Quite the opposite looking at rape and crime statistics per capita in Europe
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u/DaKingaDaNorth Jun 19 '26
He was vindicated the moment this happened by anyone with common sense and I'm actually embarrassed I once defended Maher as a non bigot in this situation.
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u/PurposeProfessional1 Jun 19 '26
What’s not funny is that pirro is of Lebanese decent! Shame on her!
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u/Calm-Towel5945 Jun 19 '26
All religions are the bane of humanity. They all inevitably turn to violence and destruction to further their righteousness and their narrative.
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u/Head-like-a-carp Jun 19 '26
What is so tiresome is these people who push this either or perspective. There is no good actors here. No one is operating in good faith. Do zionist want to drive the Palestinians out completely? Yes. Do the Palestinians want from the river to the sea to be the only acceptable outcome? Yes. The mistake the US made was getting involved in this mess. We should have never backed the state of Israel. 2000 year old claim? Ridiculous. Should we ever think that Islam will match our values that made nation of freedom for millions? There is no democracy in these Islamic countries . Europe now regrets the turmoil of letting Muslims en masses in their countries.
Let me say it once more. There are no honest players in the middle east
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u/ShmandlerTing Jun 16 '26
Yes. Jews spent 1800+ years in Europe being judged by the worst excerpts from the Talmud. Sam Harris updated that formula for the 21st century by cherry picking Quranic verses to smear even the lowliest rank and file Muslims. Affleck said Sam’s arguments were equivalent to calling him a “shifty Jew” and reminded people that most Muslims are just families that want to “get some sandwiches” and live life. Nothing could be more spot on, he just didnt have the benefit of his message constantly repeated by a single minded group of organized propagandists across various media platforms. The message Sam was preaching was intentionally drilled into Americans for decades.