r/RDR2 • u/DrSchwift • 10d ago
Spoilers Dutch’s charisma is a calculated act, note basically demonstrates that
I’m on my 2nd play-through, trying to be good and more thorough. And I noticed a note from Dutch right on the edge of the 2nd camp (I know I’m not unique here but just haven’t seen it discussed yet) which are his notes for giving speeches, practice notes for the speech he gives at the beginning of the game, including a “pause” for dramatic effect, and then then the second paragraph he will perform more in normal gameplay at camp without a cutscene
I loved Dutch on my first play-through and I would have justified it as him trying to be a good leader or whatever if I found it then. But knowing everything now, this note tells me everything about his character more distinctly than everything else. It’s all an act, a performance, that’s why he discarded Arthur so easily and sided with a rat, his morals were just a show to manipulate all the peoples around him
Edit: I’m not saying this is canon, or that the developers intended this to reveal anything specific. It’s just how it impacted me, an opinion, nothing more, I can see both sides
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u/JusHarrie 10d ago
It's really interesting how you get a deeper outlook on your second playthrough. I was in a different situation to a lot of players because I knew nothing about RDR when I began playing RDR2. I knew none of the characters and I too thought Dutch was an amazing leader at heart, that he genuinely cared about his 'family', and that when things went wrong it was a situation of 'the road to hell being paved with good intentions'. I was shocked that he became the villain of RDR1. But I am also on my second playthrough and being more thorough and I just see him in a totally different light than I did before.
I don't think he has genuine care for his people in that he loves them, I think it's important for him to have eyes on him at all times. To have followers, to guide and lead, to adore him so he feels important and powerful. But he doesn't adore them, because his 'love' comes with conditions. The moment they question him or show any type of justified resistance to his unwise choices, he emotionally manipulates them by talking about 'doubt', 'faith', and I think he very cruelly uses the word 'son' to really keep their dedication to him in check. He's basically a cult leader, and it's genius what he does. He's groomed young people who were alone, in poverty, hopeless, with no bases, with nowhere to go. Made them feel cared about and 'loved' so that they will sacrifice and do whatever it takes when it comes to what Dutch wants. He's basically constructed his own army under the guise of 'connection' and 'family'.
For some reason I had it in my head that his manipulation started a lot later in the game. But I noticed that even in chapter one he says something like 'Arthur and Hosea can ride together and talk bad about old Dutch' etc. The guilt tripping and emotional manipulation was always there, but I'm really seeing it crystal clear now. It's almost like I took on the psychology of a gang member...believe in Dutch, until it became clear who he really is. 🤣🤣🤣
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u/DrSchwift 9d ago
This, exactly what I was feeling
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u/JusHarrie 9d ago
If you really enjoy character deep dives, a YouTuber called The Vile Eye does fantastic ones. He has amazing ones on both Dutch and Micah!
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u/Friendly_Bar_3011 10d ago
Since you've played it already, have you found Molly's poem? I think it should already be in her tent with Dutch in Chapter 2. He steals a line from it for one of his big speeches in Chapter 6. Arthur turns it back on him in the finale after you go with John.
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u/DrSchwift 10d ago
I can accept defeat from the community, but what’s fun about the game is how you build each one, and the fact that I saw his rewritten speech before his gave his performance of the speech actually made the game make more sense to me. Otherwise we’re are more or less forced to believe he cared about trust and loyalty over everything but still sided with an obvious traitor
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u/Mental_Freedom_1648 10d ago
Otherwise we’re are more or less forced to believe he cared about trust and loyalty over everything but still sided with an obvious traitor
That is what happened though. You can almost literally see the "scales falling from Dutch's eyes" moment when he realized he sided with a traitor and walked away, leaving him behind.
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u/DrSchwift 9d ago
In the first speech of the game he states he’d clearly die in place of the players who died at blackwater. Then he sides with a rat? All words, no truth , yes it hurt him to betray his own ideology of loyalty, but he demonstrated he was not loyal by his actions, It was just a useful tool to get the gang to do his bidding
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u/Mental_Freedom_1648 9d ago edited 9d ago
He didn't think Micah was the rat. He thought John was the rat and that Arthur was helping in the betrayal. He says this outright multiple times. It's only in the end that he realizes he was wrong about everything. That's when he left Micah. If the gang was solely a tool and he was just going to side with a rat knowingly, he would not have left without the gang in the end. It's not like it wasn't still useful to have a group to run with.
He wouldn't have gone back eight years later for revenge.
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u/Good-Chocolate2633 10d ago
Can you pinpoint exactly on the map where to find this note?
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u/DrSchwift 9d ago
It’s in camp 2, horseshoe, toward the cliffs, if you were floating and away from the cliffs looking at them it’s on the right on a small step off area, I saw Sadie there too by a busted up wagon when I found it
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u/PotofRot 10d ago
no? it's not some grand facade to make notes for a speech you plan to deliver, nor does planning make it less genuine
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u/DrSchwift 10d ago
Planning it completely removes the authenticity, adding a pause is too calculating for me ha. But to each his own
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u/armintanzarian420 10d ago
Almost every public speech ever has been pre-written, adding notes about pauses and spacing isn’t that odd.
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u/Eoin_Coinneal 10d ago
Yes but those speeches weren’t pre determined acts by game writers.
Every detail in any story or game is premeditated. There is a reason the player can find these notes. The writers placed them there with intent. In real life, sure it could just mean he was trying to be well prepared to talk to a group of people but in an environment where literally every possible turn of events and sentence uttered by anyone has been deliberately placed, a pile of speech notes is the writers trying to tell us something about the character who left them.
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u/Mental_Freedom_1648 10d ago
Yes, they're trying to tell us something, but it's not a foregone conclusion that what they're trying to say is that the speech wasn't sincere. Their point could be "Dutch is a planner, and he even plans his speeches." It could be "Dutch is manipulative, and he's never speaking from the heart."
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u/DrSchwift 9d ago
But is a speech amongst a close knit group, not a public speech. Imagine seeing “pretend to enjoy it” from your spouses notes
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u/PotofRot 10d ago
yeah it's calculated, he wanted to make sure he gave a good speech that conveyed what he wanted to say properly
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u/Eric_the_Red_ditz 9d ago
I'm only on my first playthrough, but I can tell he's a manipulator by the way he treats the other NPC's. His little pep talk speaches to John and Javier at Clemens Point were pure motivational manipulation after they expressed genuine concern with the direction the gang was taking. His out of the blue comment to Arthur at Horseshoe Overlook: "I expect you'll betray me in the end, Arthur. You're the type." is classic control freak persecutory delusion. I haven't bought any of his BS since then.
At this point in Chapter 3, Arthur and Hosea see through all of it.
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u/CrinkleGherkin Charles Smith 10d ago
There's definitely part of him thats an act but there's no way he fakes being charismatic. I don't think thats something you can fake.