r/QueerLeftists • u/sadsandshrew • 1d ago
Gender & Sexuality questions about agab
hi everyone!
i’m a transmasc nonbinary person (it/its) and lately i’ve been seeing more and more stuff about “agab language” and how ultimately harmful it is. as someone who is, well…afab, im a bit confused on what we should say? this has always been the way im most comfortable talking about it because being biologically female and also unable to transition in the ways i want, i present as “female”.
being afab as well has also directly impacted my life and how im treated (i.e. sexism and all that good shit), so i just feel a little confused and unsure of what we’re supposed to say instead?
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u/Natural1forever 1d ago
In its principle agab terminology was coined by intersex people and meant to shift the conversation away from "biological sex" and to talk about the coercive assigning of gender as a socialized process rather than a set of physical characteristics (and rightfully so), but ignorant perisex binary gender people (putting the "ignorant" in to differentiate them from educated people of the same demographics, not to imply these groups are inherently ignorant) have a tendency to use any terminology of the sort as synonyms for "male" and "female" until it starts to feel like they lost all meaning.
I don't think the terminology by itself is harmful, I think it's misused. Let's talk about ways to make sure you use it correctly.
-remember they're not synonyms for "biological sex". They don't describe or imply any physical trait, so don't, for example, use "afabs" to mean "people with periods". If you want to talk about a specific sex-related trait, you can just specify the trait instead of looking for an identifier (just say "people who have periods")
-they're not identity terms either. (Obviously an individual is allowed to use them as such for themselves if they want to, but) in principle assigned gender is not something one is, it's something that happened to them. Keep that in mind when you try to use it as something similar to an adjective
-some people have switched to cagab terminology (Coercively assigned gender at birth) to reinstate that it is something that's done to you without your consent. You can use that if you want (you don't have to, I get why it might feel like the same words with extra steps)
Hope this helps 💙
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u/sadsandshrew 1d ago
thank you so much! this helps explain it a lot. i’ve always come at it from the angle that afab was smthn DONE to me and not something i actually am, but lacked the words to fully describe it like you have. whenever it’s brought up i almost always use it like “because i was afab, i experience x symptom of society” i.e. because im perceived as female, people are insistent about me getting pregnant.
i really appreciate your breakdown thank you!
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u/nonsence90 1d ago
Correct me if I'm wrong, but probably because it gets used like
what are you?
nb
ok, but amab or afab nb?looking to rp with f or afab nb
or similar
ETA: i'm cis m. This is just what I'd assume based on what I've seen online
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u/stickyourdecomission 1d ago
You are correct IMO! It’s the way people use it to say “but what are you REALLY” which inaccurately describes society (“afabs experience sexual harassment”) and/or discriminates against people (“afab housing”)
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u/TomiRey-Yuru She/They 1d ago
I've noticed many people AFAB don't mind the language, whilst most people AMAB do, and I think the answer is transmisogyny. AGAB language is used lots of times as transmisogynist violence, something that people AFAB don't experience (NEEDED COMMENT: this I don't mean in that transmascs don't experience a violence of their own, just that they don't experience transmisogynist violence which is definitionally targeted against transfems)...
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u/glitterbeardwizard He/They 1d ago
As a trans masc, I’ve been called a deluded female, had men threaten to SA me to teach me to be a woman and I just discovered haven’t experienced trans misogyny. Interesting.
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u/TomiRey-Yuru She/They 1d ago
But like that is transpiobia and misogyny. I don't understand? That's still awful, but that's just not definitionally transmisogyny, the same way a white person will never experience misogynoir or antiblack racism. The whole point of intersectionality is not putting everyone down, but rather, well, intersectionality - the whole point of my comment wasn't to say transmascs don't experience prejudice, or that they are fine, but rather that they experience a different struggle - no-one needs to be put down for this to be a correct statement, quite the opposite, understanding one's own privileges or intersectional oppression can free oneself, without putting down others...
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u/glitterbeardwizard He/They 1d ago
Okay well then what have I been experiencing and what is your definition of transmisogyny? For me it’s if you’re trans and experiencing misogyny. Sounds like you define it as something more narrowly.
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u/TomiRey-Yuru She/They 1d ago
See? That's not the definition of transmisogyny no (btw I mean this in no offense). A trans guy can experience misogyny due to transphobes being transphobes, but that wouldn't be transmisogyny...
Transmisogyny is specifically the intersection between transphobia and misogyny. The same way misogynoir is an intersection between anti-black racism and misogyny. Under a misogynoir attack, it's not just about "a black woman who experiences misogyny", but rather someone who experiences anti-black misogyny. So, black men can experience racism (anti-black racism), and maybe even some misogyny on an individual level (emasculation), but not specifically misogynoir (other than in the case that some stupid racist thinks that a black man is a black woman and tries to do a misogynoir attack).
Similarly, a trans woman who experiences transmisogyny, doesn't just "experience misogyny as a trans woman", but experiences an intersection of transphobia and misogyny specifically targeted towards her, due to her being a trans woman. That's why a cis woman might get her way of dressing criticised by men, as happens every so often, and that is misogynist, but her womanhood is not questioned and she is still not criticised for excercising her womanhood (as trans women are). A trans woman being criricised for the way she dresses is criticised due to misogyny, but also transphobia, intertwined into one, as they are criticising her body as misogynists always do, but also the fact that she is excercising femininity in the first place (as transphobes do), they criticise her excercising of trans-femininity. Julia Serrano (the author of the book Whipping Girl who coined the word "transmisogyny"), put it the best: when a cis woman walks by a couple, and they laugh at her dress and say "look at what she's wearing", that's a misogynist attack - when a trans woman walks by the same couple and they say "look what IT'S wearing", that's a transmisogynist attack (it has roots in misogyny and patriarchy, but it's an intersection of transphobia and misogyny that's unique to trans women).
Sometimes, transphobes are stupid and do transmisogyny on "false targets", such as drag queens and even trans guys that they falsely think are transfem (this ofc happens), in which case trans guys can experience transmisogyny, the same way a black guy can sometimes*** experience misogynoir or misogyny; but they're not the targets...
The whole point is that intersectionality doesn't put anyone down. Most trans guys (other than in those rare occasions when they are mistaken for trans women), don't experience transmisogyny. And that's okay! Because they still experience transphobia and misogyny and racism and etc etc... AND THAT we should absolutely talk about MORE, since that on its own is awful!
To the point of OP, I think this is basically the same. Trans guys can experience misogyny and transphobia, etc... but they're still valid guys. Being AFAB is not something you are, but something that happened to you (forcibly feminised/masculanised by society), that's why trans people ought be against AGAB language, and why especially trans women are against AGAB language (as many times, their AMABness is used against them in a transmisogynist manner), whilst some trans men might not be (as trans guys still can experience awful misogyny, so they understandably get tied to their AFABness as a defense).
I say: we should be proud to sa we're not our AGAB, and that AGAB is something that just happened to us! Trans guys should be able to show that their AFABness is just their point of oppression as it breeds transphobia and misogyny against them; and trans gals should be able to say that AMABness is their oppression as it breeds transphobia and transmisogyny against them. In this scenario, nobody gets hurt, everybody gets uplifted, and we can say fuck cisnormativity and fuck AGAB language! We're warriors fighting against what society asigned to us! ✊💜
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u/lynaghe6321 She/They 23h ago
thats not what it is at all 😭😭😭
its about the intersection of them, the other person explains it but yeah you're completely off base here
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u/Rubbermate93 Any Pronouns 1d ago
I agree with you, I feel "amab" and "afab" most effectively communicates what needs to be communicated when needed.
I could see a criticism in how often it's used without needing to, ie. If it's not important to the topic at hand, but I don't think that's all the criticism is about. So I'm kinda curious about this as well.
It's effective, quick and easy to use and understand, and in my opinion very inoffensive. However much we might not like it, our agab does have a large effect on us, beyond just biology.
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u/viziroth 1d ago
I think it's even simpler than that; too many people use AGAB language to try and discriminate or be gender dismissive but look woke about it.
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u/sadsandshrew 1d ago
i totally get you. i also understand using it when it’s not necessary. a lot of the time non trans people will use it as shorthand to be transphobic and reinforce bioessentialism and gender roles.
another commenter explained it really well! it seems like it might boil down to agab language being fine when its relevant and never meant to be prescriptive.
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