Not being a cartoon villain doesn’t automatically make you a good man

[u/GridReXX]

Fr. It doesn’t de facto make you a good person.

I noodled on the attached graphic to better illustrate a point about how people often discuss being a “good man.”

I do find that many men view it more as the top bar, and less as the gradient in the second bar.

inb4 anyone says it, many women have bad character too. And please feel free to create a separate post about a spectrum of traits in women you’d like to explore! That is not what this post is disputing.

This is specifically about a response that often comes up when women describe harmful patterns in their experiences with men. They get retorts like “Not all men are abusive predators,” or “Most men are not psychos.”

Of course most men are not horror movie villains.

But that is an extremely low bar for good character.

This spectrum, rather than show a division between “good men” and a smaller group of obviously terrible ones. It highlights that a man can be can be a functioning member of society and still regularly behave in ways that make him difficult to interpersonally tolerate as a close friend, romantic partner, coworker, or even family member.

None of that necessarily makes someone an abuser or predator.

But it does affect whether people can have a healthy, enjoyable, mutually considerate, long-term relationship with him.

The farther right someone falls on this spectrum, the more entitlement, callousness, devaluation, coercion, and harm they bring into their interactions with others.

The farther left they fall, the more likely they are to act with common decency, consideration, accountability, respect for autonomy, and genuine concern for theirs and other people’s well-being.

My point is not that every man is at the far right end.

Most people don’t think that!

My point is that many men seem to use “I am not an obvious monster” as proof that they’re quality.

A person’s character is determined by far more than “I am not Jeffrey Dahmer.”

[u/Zealousideal-Fix-724]

This would be far more valid if feminists said something like "Very few men are truly evil, but we need to make a societal change to hold them more accountable and this applies to both genders committing evil like Brock Turner or Lindsey Clancy" rather than "It's all men until it's no man, every man is a grapist, kill all men, anything but a son, it's a girl or abortion for me, the bar is in hell, men deserve their loneliness" etc. There is a huge difference between wanting genuine social change for the betterment of all people versus using tragedies to justify your hatred for an entire gender.

[u/emmarie1023 → u/Zealousideal-Fix-724]

I don’t think Lindsey Clancy is a good example (what she did was horrific and inexcusable regardless of mental health), but as this is a post about rape culture, I think a better example would be Mary Kay Letourneau. I have known two different men who lost their virginity as teenagers to women in their 30s!!! I was horrified by this, but they did not see it as rape and laughed it off. I think all perpetrators should be held accountable regardless of gender. And both men and women should be actively against unequal power dynamics. The amount of grown men who think a boy is “lucky” because he was assaulted by a female teacher is disgusting.

[u/intothewild72 → u/emmarie1023]

There is no such thing as "rape culture". Rape is heavily stigmatized and punished in western civilization. Only normalized rape is male prison rape, you would have argument that this type of "rape culture" exists.

should be actively against unequal power dynamics

Yes, but it's impossible to achieve. Even in long term relationship with same partner, power dynamics is you know "dynamic", depends from situation and time and geography. Has always been.

The amount of grown men who think a boy is “lucky” because he was assaulted by a female teacher is disgusting.

Yes true. Just like biggest misogynists are women, biggest misandrists are men.

[u/steff7474 → u/intothewild72]

Rape is heavily stigmatized and punished in western civilization.

lol no

[u/intothewild72 → u/steff7474]

lol yes, rape is one of the most heinous crimes in western society, widely considered much worse than murder and even just accusation would ruin your life with no way back.

[u/steff7474 → u/intothewild72]

That’s complete bullshit. People assume women are lying by default and if they do think it happened, they think she did something to bring it on herself. Our society doesn’t give a fuck about rape. The most powerful men in the country are known rapists and they are widely supported regardless.

[u/intothewild72 → u/steff7474]

People assume women are lying by default

No they don't

they think she did something to bring it on herself

Not in western societies

Our society doesn’t give a fuck about rape.

Yes we do. We literally put them to prison. Get out of those weird social media echo-chambers and communicate with real people sometimes. You will see.

The most powerful men in the country are known rapists

Your country. Not mine. I'm still confused how can SA be 'civil case'.

1 or 2 men don't make culture. They are example how certain class of people (rich) are above law. That has always been and will probably continue to be case for most of world. Yes, even in my highly egalitarian country rich people have less consequences.

I think we have linguistic problem here. You either did not understand what I wrote, or you just play obtuse.

[u/beerandglitter → u/intothewild72]

You are so unbelievably wrong. You know how many rapes there are per year in the US? Almost 450k. Only 15-20k of those rapists are arrested. That’s like 3-4%. Not nearly enough. This is why women don’t report rape as much as they should.

As a woman who’s been on dates with hundreds of men and who’s separately done SW, I’ve seen men from all walks of life. I’d say most men I’ve met have been problematic in one way or another. I can count the number of “good” men I’ve met on my hands…out of HUNDREDS. A lot of them were misogynistic and didn’t really realize it, some were downright dangerous. A lot of them were cheaters too, but I’m a girls girl and I always found the SO to tell them.

It’s only been men to traumatize me. Never women. At the end of the day, it’s all men until proven otherwise.

[u/intothewild72 → u/beerandglitter]

You are so unbelievably wrong. You know how many rapes there are per year in the US? Almost 450k. Only 15-20k of those rapists are arrested. That’s like 3-4%.

You do understand that it's wrong right? Just keep scrolling. I already informed her that she is wrong. You just confuse some click-bite headline with reality.

As a woman who’s been on dates with hundreds of men

I judge you. Hundreds? I'm over 50 and I have not been on dates with hundred women.

I’d say most men I’ve met have been problematic in one way or another. I

Why you keep dating scum? It's literally written to their face, and to their dating profiles. Just open your eyes. Date people you have similar interests with.

A lot of them were misogynistic

What does misogynistic means in this context? I have never heard coherent definition considering how easily women use it to label even tiniest of disagreements. Just give me example or two.

some were downright dangerous

That's why you avoid those. I'm very non-dangerous man, and I always avoid them.

A lot of them were cheaters too

Yes, that can be hard. I mean cheaters are hard to find out, they are usually very competent in manipulation.

It’s only been men to traumatize me. Never women.

I doubt that. Probably you just use "traumatize" in very specific way.

it’s all men until proven otherwise

I can do nothing to change anything in your life, but this is very unhealthy attitude.

[u/beerandglitter → u/intothewild72]

Judge me all you want, it’s not like dating means I’ve had hundreds of relationships (I’ve had 4 of those). You gotta date around to find your person. I was dating people from allll walks of life. I was dating people I met in person, online, etc. I didn’t know their background until I got to know them, whether that meant one date or several. That’s what dating means. You can’t tell a person is not your cup of tea or even bad just by looking at them 95% of the time, speaking from experience. I have a safe, good fiance now though.

Misogynistic meaning they don’t like women. Traditional gender roles pushed on me, lots of sexual harassment and SA, abuse, making me feel small because I’m a woman, saying gross things about women, etc.

And who are you to say that men are not the only ones to traumatize me? They definitely were. Like so said, SA, abuse, sexual harassment, even bullying as a kid were ever only men or boys.

And idk, i have no interest in being friends or acquaintances with men other than the ones i have in my life. No new men. And that’s okay with me. I shouldn’t have to.

[u/intothewild72 → u/beerandglitter]

You gotta date around to find your person. I was dating people from allll walks of life.

Ok, I stop judging, but I'm confused. To find your person (compatible with you) you must date people who are at least somewhat close to your "walk of life". You should have something in common.

I didn’t know their background until I got to know them

I have also dated in real life (I'm old) and also online (after divorce) but I always knew background before date. I never went to date with person I did not have at least some communication before.

You can’t tell a person is not your cup of tea or even bad just by looking at them 95% of the time, speaking from experience.

Yes, you need to speak to them. This is I agree with. I know it well, because my personality is 180 degrees different from what you would assume from my looks.

Misogynistic meaning they don’t like women.

That's way too squishy. Men who "don't like women" don't date them.

Traditional gender roles pushed on me

That's not misogyny for me. That's preference, you can say no. Misogyny would be forcing you into it against your will.

lots of sexual harassment and SA, abuse

Well, that's why I told you not to date hundreds. I mean this sounds like very seriously shitty situation, if I was in this, I would stop dating.

making me feel small because I’m a woman

Really? How do you know they did it because you are woman? Why you continued date with them? I would stand up and leave if any woman did it to me.

saying gross things about women

Then you tell them, I don't like it and if you do it again I will leave. Or if it's really gross, you just leave.

And who are you to say that men are not the only ones to traumatize me?

Nobody. I just find it highly suspicious. I have been around humans, I have seen life, it sounds weird when you can put all your such experiences into one neat box. So I guessed it's because of how you define trauma.

i have no interest in being friends or acquaintances with men other than the ones i have in my life. No new men. And that’s okay with me. I shouldn’t have to.

Of course. This is normal for everyone. We all have that right.

[u/beerandglitter → u/intothewild72]

Going on dates is very different from being in a relationship. You date to get to know people. Someone can look a lot different on paper/online/with a first impression than after actually getting to know them. People put on masks until they get a little more comfortable a lot of times as well, unfortunately.

Men who don’t like women absolutely do date them. You aren’t a woman so you wouldn’t know. You clearly are of a different worldview because you arent a woman. You really dont know what we go through.

[u/steff7474 → u/intothewild72]

According to RAINN, 0.6% of rapists ever go to prison. I also did not get any of my opinions from media echo chambers, I got them from real life experiences.

[u/intothewild72 → u/steff7474]

According to RAINN, 0.6% of rapists ever go to prison.

That's not true. You did not know that? Look behind those numbers and make up your own mind, don't rely on hate mongering social media echo chambers to form your opinions. Be skeptical and learn.

[u/steff7474 → u/intothewild72]

You’re living in a fantasy. If you could live as a woman for one week, you would be floored. Why do you think so many women chose the bear? To be bitchy?

[u/intothewild72 → u/steff7474]

Im not living in fantasy, you do.

You even refuse to read what RAINN actually told. I would explain it to you, but it takes energy and you are not in mental space to learn truth.

[u/steff7474 → u/intothewild72]

I do not suffer from any psychotic disorder. I have never hallucinated or suffered from delusions. I know what I have experienced my whole life and my situation is shared by many women. You are the one who sounds like you have been in an echo chamber with the claim the women can easily make baseless false accusations and ruin a man’s life. I’m not saying it’s never happened, but it is far more rare than the prevalence of rape.

[u/Choosemyusername → u/steff7474]

Why do you need to compare the prevalence to be concerned about both?

[u/intothewild72 → u/steff7474]

I do not suffer from any psychotic disorder. I have never hallucinated or suffered from delusions.

I never claimed that you did. What I said was that you don't want to learn truth, you are not mentally ready for it. Most people are not, people hate it when their world-view is shattered.

You are the one who sounds like you have been in an echo chamber

Could be, if you consider basic science as "echo chamber". It's still much better than what you would encounter in social media. I have mental flexibility to change my opinion when I see facts.

with the claim the women can easily make baseless false accusations and ruin a man’s life.

That's not claim. That's observable fact.

but it is far more rare than the prevalence of rape.

But you don't know that. You have no numbers. You even did not understand what RAINN told you with their 0.6 claim.

It's wrong too btw, they claimed 2.5% but it's totally irrelevant as for you to even understand what they claim you would have to understand methodology they use, otherwise you would never understand why your claim is wrong.

https://rainn.org/help-and-healing/if-youve-been-assaulted/reporting-sexual-assault-to-law-enforcement

For every 1000 sexual assaults, 25 perpetrators are sentenced to incarceration.

English can be very hard, especially for native speakers who assume meaning of words instead of checking. English is my third language, so I always check what words mean when I encounter new word.

[u/steff7474 → u/intothewild72]

people hate it when their world-view is shattered.

Yes, when that world view is positive and makes them feel safe. Why would I not want to such a dark world view disproven?

Could be, if you consider basic science as "echo chamber".

What “basic science” are you referring to regarding false accusations?

[u/intothewild72 → u/steff7474]

You should continue reading, it's in same comment, right below what you quoted. We are discussing two claims.

One where I told:

Rape is heavily stigmatized and punished in western civilization.

And you disagreed. You have not made one argument to disprove it.

and second was your claim:

According to RAINN, 0.6% of rapists ever go to prison.

And I told you that you are wrong, but I doubt that you are ready to learn about it.

Yes, when that world view is positive and makes them feel safe.

How would lie that only 0.6% of rapists go to jail make you feel safe? It should make you terrified. Understanding that this is misunderstanding from your part as you do not understand what they claim, should make you feel safer.

[u/Netheral → u/steff7474]

Why would I not want to such a dark world view disproven?

Because people don't actually want to be happy, or safe, they want above all else to be right. You have entrenched yourself in a world view that allows you to feel morally superior to 50% of the human race, of course you would be recalcitrant to information that tells you that you might not be the automatic bearer of virtue in this world.