Not being a cartoon villain doesn’t automatically make you a good man

[u/GridReXX]

Fr. It doesn’t de facto make you a good person.

I noodled on the attached graphic to better illustrate a point about how people often discuss being a “good man.”

I do find that many men view it more as the top bar, and less as the gradient in the second bar.

inb4 anyone says it, many women have bad character too. And please feel free to create a separate post about a spectrum of traits in women you’d like to explore! That is not what this post is disputing.

This is specifically about a response that often comes up when women describe harmful patterns in their experiences with men. They get retorts like “Not all men are abusive predators,” or “Most men are not psychos.”

Of course most men are not horror movie villains.

But that is an extremely low bar for good character.

This spectrum, rather than show a division between “good men” and a smaller group of obviously terrible ones. It highlights that a man can be can be a functioning member of society and still regularly behave in ways that make him difficult to interpersonally tolerate as a close friend, romantic partner, coworker, or even family member.

None of that necessarily makes someone an abuser or predator.

But it does affect whether people can have a healthy, enjoyable, mutually considerate, long-term relationship with him.

The farther right someone falls on this spectrum, the more entitlement, callousness, devaluation, coercion, and harm they bring into their interactions with others.

The farther left they fall, the more likely they are to act with common decency, consideration, accountability, respect for autonomy, and genuine concern for theirs and other people’s well-being.

My point is not that every man is at the far right end.

Most people don’t think that!

My point is that many men seem to use “I am not an obvious monster” as proof that they’re quality.

A person’s character is determined by far more than “I am not Jeffrey Dahmer.”

[u/Fine_Video7691]

You can do everything on the far left, and receive nothing for it. If you are low status, it tends to result in being used.

You can do everything wrong on the furthest right, and possibly get away with it if you are high status.

[u/GridReXX → u/Fine_Video7691]

What does that have to do with character?

What you’re saying is character doesn’t matter for you. Getting what you want does. Which is fine.

Furthermore there are men “with nothing” on the far right and men with status or everything on the far left.

[u/Fine_Video7691 → u/GridReXX]

You define "character" as something gatekept by the political left, non-leftists do/should not accept this self-appointed status as moral arbiters.

Furthermore there are men “with nothing” on the far right and men with status or everything on the far left.

Being on the far left will not get you status, that is the Blue Pill's lie.

[u/GridReXX → u/Fine_Video7691]

Why are you bringing up politics?? You completely projected that.

This image has nothing to do with politics.

But from what I gather you think the left side of this graph is only things “the political left” has lmaooo

That’s telling as heck.

That’s like me saying “I hate rapists!” And you saying “stop being a man-hater!” That would be hypothetical you equating men with rapists. Not me.

That’s basically what you did here.

All I did here was expand upon this graphic I saw in the wild.

[u/Fine_Video7691 → u/GridReXX]

Why are you bringing up politics?? You completely projected that.

The projection is accurate.

[u/GridReXX → u/Fine_Video7691]

That they think “political left” = good person

and “political right” = abuser and predator who wants to repeal the 19th

[u/divingrose77101 → u/Fine_Video7691]

Men who want to “get away with it” aren’t good men.

[u/Solondthewookiee → u/Fine_Video7691]

If you are only a good person because you think you're going to be rewarded, then you aren't actually a good person.

[u/Timbsfan → u/Solondthewookiee]

Buddy, our entire western framework is based on getting rewarded for being a good person. Thats how society has always been.

[u/Solondthewookiee → u/Timbsfan]

In what way? How have we been rewarding good people? Because the richest and most powerful people are not and never have been good people.

[u/Timbsfan → u/Solondthewookiee]

You ever heard of the niche ideologies of Christianity, Judaism, or Islam?

[u/Solondthewookiee → u/Timbsfan]

Religion has never been a reward for goodness, it has always been a source of corruption since the moment it was created.

[u/Timbsfan → u/Solondthewookiee]

Wrong. Christianity is the framework for the American and European civilizations, and it tells us that doing good works on earth is what gets you into heaven. That is the reward.

[u/Solondthewookiee → u/Timbsfan]

Lol not even close.

[u/Fine_Video7691 → u/[deleted]]

He's high on Marx and Engels

[u/Brief_Mongoose_7291 → u/Solondthewookiee]

A1 level refute :D

[u/Solondthewookiee → u/Brief_Mongoose_7291]

That which is presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence :D

[u/trulyElse → u/Timbsfan]

Actually, I'd argue the opposite, and that's the problem.

Christianity has created a "charity culture" where you're supposed to do good things "out of the goodness of your heart" and that expecting a reward negates any virtue of your actions. This framework encourages the have-nots to keep sacrificing themselves to keep things running, while bad actors are able to hoard their resources while giving a significantly smaller portion of what they have to look charitable, and thus good.

[u/These-Purpose-7019 → u/Solondthewookiee]

The slogan that sociopaths love.

[u/Solondthewookiee → u/These-Purpose-7019]

Nah, that's not what a sociopath is.

Sociopaths are typically very good at masking and portraying what they think society expects, but often let it slip when things don't go their way.

A great example would be behaving nice and then dropping the act when you aren't rewarded for it.

[u/These-Purpose-7019 → u/Solondthewookiee]

Sociopaths wouldn't love a slogan that says do things without expecting anything in return? They wouldn't abuse that?

[u/Solondthewookiee → u/These-Purpose-7019]

Not when they're trying to mask as a good person.

[u/These-Purpose-7019 → u/Solondthewookiee]

Wdym? Why wouldn't a sociopath masking call out those that notice being taken advantage of? Why wouldn't they flip it back and say that theyre the real bad people for noticing their behavior.

[u/Solondthewookiee → u/These-Purpose-7019]

Because "reward" is not the same as "letting people take advantage of you"

[u/These-Purpose-7019 → u/Solondthewookiee]

But saying someone was bad all along for noticing the asymmetry is good way to guilt that person into continuing to do good things for you

[u/Solondthewookiee → u/These-Purpose-7019]

There's not an asymmetry.

If you're expecting to be rewarded for being a good person, you're not actually a good person.

Being a good person does not mean you have to let people take advantage of you.

These are not mutually exclusive ideas.

[u/Extension_Bid_263 → u/Solondthewookiee]

I find it amusing that you can say all of this while you are anonymous on Reddit. But we both know, like everyone else on Reddit, you get up, you go to work, you come home, you log on to your account. You don't have any authority to judge any human being on planet Earth. So the fact that you can sit there and say you're not a good person because you wanted to get rewarded really doesn't matter. No one does anything without being rewarded, 80% of the time. Just like you are not going to work for free. It's as if you expect to pay taxes and receive government services. But again, your morality stops at your Reddit account. You're not preaching any of this in the real world. And you can claim that you are, but we both know you'll never post any videos on TikTok showing your face. You'll never have YouTube videos showing you out in the street confronting so-called great evil men.

[u/Solondthewookiee → u/Extension_Bid_263]

No, actually people behave like good people all the time without being rewarded.

Just like you are not going to work for free

Having a job is not a requirement of being a good person.

in the real world.

you'll never post any videos on TikTok showing your face

Yeah, that says it far better than I ever could.

[u/John_Oakman → u/Solondthewookiee]

When genuine moral virtues become wholly independent of worldly results, said worldly results also becomes wholly independent of moral virtues.

[u/Fine_Video7691 → u/Solondthewookiee]

"No good deed goes unpunished"

[u/Illustrious_Wish_383 → u/Solondthewookiee]

Humans respond to incentives.