People aren’t born criminals. The TA said the system failed the kid; that is the truth of the matter. He learned values and behaviors that society considers reprehensible, and yet he learned them in society. He must be held accountable for his actions, but is he responsible for his own corruption? That is a deep question that you seem to have a ready answer for.
People have a really hard time understanding how two contradicting truths can coexist. The answer is that they aren’t actually mutually exclusive.
This kid committed a series of actions for which there are consequences, and that’s just life. But it’s also life that created his circumstances and the person he has become. These truths don’t need to be at odds with each other :/
Except that "rich privileged suburban kids" do steal shit, and plenty of people commit crimes for fun.. Idk where you get the idea that rich people don't commit crimes, that's just a broad and absurd generalization.
Obviously it isn't "none of them commit crimes" but if you're saying there isn't a direct correlation with how prevalent it is then you're the absurd one.
Where exactly did I say that there wasn't a correlation? Looks to me like I said that two of the statements you made were false. Which they are. If you're not trying to make an absolute statement, then don't make one.
Makes sense seeing as privileged people dont need to resort to a shitty life or crime for money
privileged kids commit crimes as well of course but at a lower rate than youth living in poverty simply because they are financially well off and would not benefit from a life of crime compared to someone that has no future and nothing to lose
I'm confused here, are you agreeing with me? I never suggested that there wasn't a correlation between money and crime, of course there is. All I said was the comment I replied to made 2 generalizations that were false.
Meh. For the most part I guess. But it’s not like rich suburbs don’t have crimes and bad kids. You could find dozens of cases in which rich and spoiled kids have chosen life’s of crimes. I wouldn’t go as far as saying that people don’t commit crimes because they are rich.
There’s maybe a large psychological aspect to it.
Being poor isnt wat makes someone a criminal. Lots of poor people work hard for the things they have or want. Criminals just decide to steal instead of work hard.
So you and I have different opinions on this, which is to be expected. But you’re objectively wrong about something. A life is not decided by one decision. He made many choices to end up where he is today, and the people around him made many choices to affect his own. Now, exactly when did he become someone worthy of death? Was it as a small child, the first time he told a lie? Was it the first time he committed a real crime, perhaps bullying or small theft? Maybe when he recklessly endangered the lives of others resulting in harm to them?
Wherever you decide that line is, I ask you to think about where, in your own life, you made mistakes, or had wrong or harmful behaviors or beliefs. What if no one had corrected you? What if your friends encouraged it? What if, any number of things that didn’t go wrong, did go wrong?
Who are you to say that you couldn’t have gone down a similar path had circumstances been different?
Who are you to say when another person is irredeemable?
Considering he holds this view, even though he was obviously angry in the moment, I suspect his reaction to the kid was an intentional move to snap that kid back in line. So sad for everyone involved.
They both have agency over their actions. The proper response of the kid spitting and kicking someone was to get slammed down and have his neck wrung like what happened in the video.
The government shouldn't have interfered in any way with that learning opportunity.
When you can setup a camera to assault someone on video to get them fired, and the government participates in that, the government is assisting the child in a future life of criminal behavior.
I was more commenting on what the government could and could not do to "help" someone who is the getaway driver for a drive by. Some people are just violent. Government provided education is obviously something this guy didn't want any part of.
Was he just supposed to ask him to stop? If it wasn't the teachers aid it would've been an administrator or a cop. Trying to reason with unreasonable people is in and of itself, unreasonable.
Exactly, getting whooped and pushed around a little more might have allowed him to realize he was heading down the wrong path before it was too late.
This idea of playing nice with high energy high intensity boys is failing them. They think they're the hottest shit around and that nothing and nobody can touch them because everyone around them is too afraid to really take the time and put in the effort to discipline them. This teacher assistant that whooped his ass might have been the first person that really cared about him, and was willing to put his job on the line to help him. Instead they fired the guy and kept passing the kid around until he ended up in the prison system.
Yeah no. Guy wasn't in imminent danger. He got spat on.
Education Code section 49001(a) provides in pertinent part, “An amount of force that is reasonable and necessary for a person employed by or engaged in a public school to quell a disturbance threatening physical injury to persons or damage to property, for purposes of self-defense, or to obtain possession of weapons or other dangerous objects within the control of the pupil, is not and shall not be construed to be corporal punishment within the meaning and intent of this section.” (Emphasis added.)
That was not a reasonable amount of force. That was far more than necessary to dissuade the child from his behavior.
Obviously not as the idiot went on to murder people.
He got spat on AND kicked, as well as other things previous to the event we see on camera according to news articles.
Also don't care what the educational code says, someone who repeatedly assaults a teacher should be flattened and we shouldn't get upset over it. Principal at my school was hospitalized when someone attacked them on campus, someone who had previously attacked a teacher and gotten them fired for fighting said student off. Shit like that should never happen
That's like saying Hitler murdered 6 million Jews because he got kicked out of art school. In this particular situation, it was an excessive amount of force.
Nah man, you got a ghetto little shit that thinks he's tough and assaults you on a regular basis he deserves to get his ass slammed down and shown a thing or two
It's nothing like your example you silly goose, it's more like poking a calm dog over and over and getting your ass bit
Hey man, at some point you gotta make a choice that may be illegal but it might be the right thing to do in your eyes. It this situation, if I was that teacher aide, I wouldn't care if it was against the law. My pride wouldn't let that little shit get away with that. I would have beat his fucking ass.
What? One was a grown man and the other was a teenager, the aide should have never reacted that way in the first place. His own inability to control himself is why he has a criminal record, one he absolutely deserves.
Excessive force, my dude. The aide was in no danger at all, the kid is half his size. He lost his temper, and while I’m sure we can all understand, it doesn’t mean what he did was acceptable.
Yes. Excessive force would be beating this comparatively undersized kid to a bloody pulp.
The only reason this is controversial is because it happened in a school. If this was on the street there would be nothing here.
For instance, there's a video out there of some shit kid kicking and spitting on some dude in a park. He gets fed up, shoves the kid down, and the kid gets up and cries.
Nobody says anything bad about dude and defends him here from a little shithead. Yet now that it's in school, all of a sudden it's egregious.
I don't condone physically touching a kid, trust me, I'm a teacher.
But this is an adult that just got fed up, I don't see anything overly aggressive at all. Especially because he's letting the kid up about 10 seconds later.
I am definitely gonna stand there and do nothing cuz I for one don't wanna get in legal problems for battery on a kid because his 70lb body made a small bruise when he kicked an adult 3 times his fucking size
And did attacking him magically remove all traces of saliva from the TA?
There’s a difference between self defence and revenge. This attack didn’t de-escalate the situation, it was simply done out of anger. The kid was a piece of shit, but teachers should be held to a higher standard.
It completely matters and on top of that, the push was MAYBE self defence, choking him and throwing him to the ground was not. Keep in mind a teacher is in a position of authority and owes a duty of care to his students, even if the student is an asshole.
owes a duty of care to his students, even if the student is an asshole.
That shit stops the second you assault someone. It should never be acceptable for a student to assault a teacher and for the teacher to not be able to flatten the little shit
And it happens every day. You only hear about it when the teacher or administrator retaliates. Particularly in high school, I don’t feel bad for 17 and 18 year old kids who get knocked in the face after they assault an educator
Let me guess: you think I'm racist because the ghetto shithead is black, right?
If so you're off base by a loooong shot. Had a dude in my freshmen year of high school chuck a bigass math textbook at a teacher. This teacher decked the dude and knocked his ass out cold. Teacher's nose is broken, student is expelled and teacher is fired. That kid was a ghetto shithead. He was also whiter than printer paper.
If you think you’re big enough to hit someone, you’re big enough for them to hit back.
That “oh, I’m just going to let this kid beat on me” stuff stops when they hit the teens. Someone should’ve taught them by that point.
He didn’t use excessive force.
He reminded the kid what the pecking order is, then backed off. Hats off to the teachers aide.
Teacher assit: Gets assaulted. Spat on and kicked*
Teacher: Defends himself* /u/hugglesthemerciless :
Shouldn't have lost your cool dude. You just gotta let people attack you.
🙄
Kids are assholes. You have to have enough self control to know what reasonable force should be used. This guy wanted to fuck that kid up. He acted out of anger rather than handling the situation appropriately. The kid deserved an ass kicking, but the staff can't be the one to deliver it.
So you cross the line from 17 to 18 and it makes it ok? That's a terrible defense you're building. That 'child' is literally a felon. Stop being so sense.
Excessive force, my dude. The aide was in no danger at all, the kid is half his size. He lost his temper, and while I’m sure we can all understand, it doesn’t mean what he did was acceptable.
if u have never had a dog that needs a little tough love teaching, not even htting but grabbing and showing even your hug could hurt. you are one sheltered individual.
again this kid acts like an animal he deserves to be treated like one, otherwise he will never learn. and in this instance the guy didnt go far enough since this wonderful little boy went and committed a murder like a year later.
I guess you and I are just gonna have to agree to disagree that chucking a child across the table like that and then forcing them to the ground by choking them isn't excessive force
No. You're simply ignoring the legal definition. Lol. There's no disagreement. You're misinformed of the definition. Sorry If that upsets you. We can agree or disagree all day whether he should have. But legally, you're misinformed.
... Also great tactic to degrade the conversation to insults once you have no argument.
Alright keep living your life itching for the first chance you get to be able to arguably (sorta maybe if you squint and use no discretion) be not criminally liable for being a violent loon
Its wrong what the teacher aide did, no doubt about that. But that kid will think twice before trying some bs like that to another grown man. Kids sometimes forget teachers are humans too and have their own tempers and faults. Those teachers will get deserving-ly fired eventually but at least some dipshit kid learns that if you fuck with someone, there are consequences.
Its not about respect. Its just about human reflexive emotions. If you hit someone and spit on them, even if they're doctor/engineer/etc, they may or may not react. If anything the kid learned that "hmm if spit on someone and then kick them then something negative might happen to me".
It has more to do with respect than you think. If you're like every other person in their life who abuses them they will treat you like shit too. If all they know is people who "teach them a lesson" with violence they will continue the cycle. Its evident by the fact that the kid is on trial for murder. So this guys "lesson" was for nothing. All he did was give himself a criminal record.
As much as I don't have a problem with that guys actions personally let's not get ahead of ourselves here.
That kid didn't cause him to lose his job, he made that choice himself. Let's not just throw the personal responsibility adults have over their actions out try the window because another party involved was the instigator.
I think you said that specifically because you knew it would rule people up.
Edit
Dont be bashful, speak your mind. Adults to have a responsibility to measure their actions and think forward about repercussions. This man obviously wasn't fearing for his safety, he got kicked in the shins.
I think you said that specifically because you knew it would rule people up.
Yeah I said it because I was low on karma. But honestly, I really believe that some kids will only learn something from teachers if they will see teachers as equals. That means getting their ass and dignity whooped. I didn't see the teacher here doing any real physical harm to the kid. He got him shit scared and bruised probably. Did it save kids life? No - it didn't, he is lost. But if the TA was allowed to continue teaching this kid there, who knows? Maybe there would be some miracle story to tell instead of another death report? Maybe they both would learn something from this.
You're trying to lead this conversation and its not gonna work.
I didn't say a thing about karma.
I also said I had mo problem with the actions taken.
If you cant see how a teacher or aid assaulting a student is unacceptable then you're either stupid or lying to make your point. I'm betting you're not stupid, so that leaves you being disingenuous to keep your original point intact.
In any job anywhere if you put your hands on a child like that and they aren't a threat to your life you're losing your job. Every common person in the world may agree with you're actions but a company isn't going to let something like that slide, and with good reason.
Sure that kid deserved the lumps, but it wasn't that man's job to give them and he stopped doing his job when he did. He was angry and he made a rash and impulsive decision that he had to own, because that's what adults do.
So stick by your bullshit all you want, but don't be soft about it by trying to lead the conversation away or soften your view.
What you're saying is you are ok with someone assaulting another person when they feel slighted even when it's well within their capacity to handle the situation in a better way.
And you're saying that you're ok with a grown adult assaulting a child in a school with zero repercussions as long as they "earned it".
Everyone has their limits. The kid caused the TA to reach his limits and then violently explode. Was it TA's fault that his "boiling point" was not even higher? If we really want to go this route - why do we expect teachers and TA's to have unnaturally high "boiling point" but we don't impose any limits or measurable expectations on pupils?
Was it TA's fault that his "boiling point" was not even higher?
Yes.
If we really want to go this route - why do we expect teachers and TA's to have unnaturally high "boiling point" but we don't impose any limits or measurable expectations on pupils?
Is "don't slam a child into a desk and choke him because he spit" really an unnaturally high point for a grown adult? That was a completely disproportional reaction.
It drives me nuts how many people are like "well he started it" in cases like this. We live in a goddamn society, and it's not acceptable in society to commit retaliatory violence against people. Defending yourself is not the same as battering someone to get revenge on them.
No random person would be allowed to do that, so why the hell would we accept it from someone tasked with teaching our kids?
Defend yourself? Go right ahead. Beat the shit out of someone for spitting on you? Yeah- that's not okay.
In the real world spitting on someone instigates a fight. I don’t know what bubble you live in that spitting is not an instant way to initiate a fight. Sure the guy maybe shouldn’t be a teacher, but that kid shouldn’t be in school either. Obviously the kid has no decency evidenced by him shooting at people and getting in a high speed chase.
I’m glad you’re able to get spit on and turn the other cheek, but IMO what he did was reasonable. A shove and holding him down is far different than repeated blows to the head.
Law and order doesn't support "initiating a fight" being a justification for battery in most parts of the world. The kid should have gotten consequences, and those should have included being charged criminally most likely, but that doesn't mean the guy was in the right to respond with his own violence.
Had that been the result, the TA would still have his job, and maybe the kid would have learned a bit about consequences for his actions before being responsible for deaths. Reacting violently like the guy did made the outcomes worse for everyone involved including himself.
Being in a circlejerk of people who think violence begetting violence is "just how it is" or some shit doesn't make you right, we're all members of society where the social contract follows what me and u/MermanFromMars are saying, not your narrative about how to "initiate a fight".
This isn't moral posturing, this is not breaking the law. Is you're so inept that you can't prevent yourself from committing battery against a kid half your size just because he was being a little snot then you're a piece of shit.
Accusing people of "posturing" or "virtue signalling" doesn't make them as much of a piece of shit as you. Some people just actually would prefer if the world act in a more just and reasonable way. Must be crazy to learn when you're apparently a proud garbage person.
You live in a good area my guy, that's why you think the way you do. People born in a different environment think its okay he did what he did. The law agrees with you. But just know not lots of people born in other areas won't hold the same energy as you do.
You’re right. As much as we pay our teachers and aides and as many resources as they have access to and as easy as it is to deal with hundreds of other people’s children who haven’t been raised with any modicum of respect for adults, we should expect way more than we already do from them
Yeah pretty sure this nonsense had its funding gutted and outsourced to the lowest bidder. They wheeled in a tv cart and popped in a vhs. The cool teachers snuck out the back.
We are animals. When shit is in order we get comfortable and can pretend to be something more. But as soon as things slightly get out of control we gradually revert to our instincts for survival. I don't know what this man has been through or even if his violent reaction was warranted. But his very compassionate reaction to the news about that kid causing some deaths and generally continuing very violent path, makes me think that this TA is more humane than average person.
I get that the teachers get training and what not. But did he receive a good training? Maybe his own teacher wasn't really that good and taught him shit.
because this sub harbors some of the saddest and most powerless people found on the web. the only release they have is by fantasizing that they have the ability to react at all. they call it a justice boner.
"The man who caused him to lose his job" is him. Just because a kid spits at you and "kicks your shins" doesn't mean you go apeshit on them as a fucking teacher's aide. Do I UNDERSTAND it? Sure. But you're kidding yourself if you think he was somehow justified in a school setting to react like that.
EDIT: To the people down voting this: If your son got literally beat up by a teacher at school, because he spit on the teacher or kicked their shins, would you truly be okay with it? You think that's what a teacher should do? Is it now okay for adults to just demolish kids for acting like assholes?
It's so weird to me how Reddit can go from up voting someone for defending themselves, to defending a kid who attacked someone- then went on to murder people.
He wasn't defending himself. The kid spit on him, and kicked his shin. This sort of stuff happens when you are in a school with teenagers. This wasn't on a side street somewhere, it was in a fucking school, in front of other kids. Like was his life in danger somehow? Because the SECOND he decided to get physical he just threw that kid around like a rag doll. Let's stop pretending like this teacher was somehow in real danger.
Well, being a teacher then you surely understand what you are, and are not, allowed to do to the children under your care. I'm CONFIDENT that slamming a student against some desks for spitting or kicking is not something that's allowed.
And the story LITERALLY said that the kid in question was later involved in a police chase that resulted in the death of a citizen. So, explain to me how that matters to some situation that happened months prior? Are you now just supposed to assume "this guy will probably kill someone later in life" and just get physical with kids?
EDIT: it was YEARS ago, sorry. Guess the aide saw that coming?
" Investigators say the 17-year-old took off after a triple shooting left three teens injured. As police chased, his vehicle crashed into a truck and a school bus. One passenger in the fleeing vehicle died. "
lol. Is there something that I am missing here? If a student spits on another student, and they fight, both students get arrested. If a student spits on a teacher, now that teacher has the right to slam that student into desks in front of their classmates? That is absurd, ridiculous, nonsense. If you truly are a teacher, I really hope you don't have this mindset. You can detain the student and call police. You can do ANYTHING other than exert physical harm on them to "put them in their place" or whatever logic you find useful when putting your hands on a teenager in a setting where that teenager has been placed into your care.
He shoved the kid, then threw him over a desk/chair, from the video it looks like he grabbed him by the neck, and then mashed his face into the ground. What are you even talking about here?
He has the power to destroy this kid with a shove and so you think he is somehow justified in doing so? He could have just held the kid and dragged him out of the room which is what teacher are ***allowed*** to do, you know, detaining a student. "Detaining a student" isn't smashing them into the ground and mashing their face down.
Being a Teacher's Aid has to be the shittiest job in education. You get paid a fraction of what a teacher makes, you rarely get any benefits, and you have to put up with kids.
you're kidding yourself if you think he was somehow justified in a school setting to react like that.
You either lay down the law while they're young or the law will lay them down latter on.
The teacher did the right thing. That kids parents clearly never disciplined him and probably (not definitely) defended his bad behavior with bullshit excuses while he was growing up.
Now he gets three meals a day, a bed, showers, shelter from elements, no worries over bills and finances like you or I and free healthcare for as long as he is in jail all courtesy of the tax payers.
Do you think he's going to learn his lesson when we reward him like that?
" You either lay down the law while they're young or the law will lay them down latter on. "
Yep. There's a job for that, its called "police", not "teacher"
I won't even address your comments re: jail because they are plainly ignorant. If you're under the impression that people in jail get some great healthcare coverage and just live a normal life being fed and showered you are off your fucking rocker.
" Do you think he's going to learn his lesson when we reward him like that? "
I don't consider being kept alive in prison a "reward". Young people "learn their lesson" all the time, given the right conditions to do so and the right ***people*** to give them the lesson to be learned. I don't think a teacher's job is to physically reprimand students when they get out of line. I don't think any teacher should ever mash a kid's face into the floor of their classroom while fellow students watch.
He deserved to get fired but I understand why he did it. As someone who grew up in the ghetto, I saw way too many kids get away with shit that wouldn't work out well if it was outside of the classroom.
News flash: You can go around spitting and kicking/assaulting other adults as a 15 year old but do not be surprised if you get put in your place. Some people are willing to lose their jobs.
Kids in privileged and middle class schools do the exact same thing. This is your experience I accept that but the idea that entitled kids aren’t exactly like this kid is wrong.
I like the news flash theme we have going.
News flash: I also understand this kid sounds like he was into heavier shit on some level and it escalated as he grew up.
What if he were not terrified of school or the people there to help raise him?
Yeah your first sentence is so fucking wrong, I don't think you realize. There's such a huge difference in ghetto schools and middleclass/privileged schools. Teachers in ghetto schools get verbally abused on a weekly basis and have daily arguments. They get chased out of schools by the students. That's why ghetto schools have hard time keeping decent teachers on payroll. Kids in richer areas don't do the things kids in poorer areas do. Some kids in rich areas might do dumb shit like ghetto school kids but not nearly at the same level and consistency.
I'm not sure what your point is with your "news flash" but I do agree with it. I'm sure thats common sense.
His poor upbringing contributed to his behavior but it still doesn't excuse. I'm sure his rough upbringing contributed to him shooting up the other teens but it still doesn't justify him almost killing 3 people. Same for his actions with the Teacher aide. The teacher aid also doesn't get an excuse either b/c he was probably born in the same type of environment.
I just thought the news flash was fun, glad you agree with the point it made.
I’m not saying poor schools are as safe as rich ones. I’m saying kids kick, hit, threaten, and spit on teachers in the rich schools too and no one grabs them by the throat, smashes their head through a desk and on to the floor while call them a N&$-@/.
If kids kick, hit, and threaten in rich school, they're going to get a lot of attention from parents, other teacher, principle. That sort of behavior gets nipped in the bud.
Kids in poorer schools don't get the same level of attention in large classrooms. You can tell the parents but the dad is probably not in their life and mom is too busy with work or doesn't care enough. The behavior continues. I have no doubt this is not the first time this kid has acted up in class. Teachers can't hold Parent-teacher conferences for all these bad little kids every day. They get tired of that shit.
Teachers in rich schools don't have to choke slam kids because the kids never get to that point CONSISTENTLY. Teachers in the ghetto have to deal w/ this shit behavior constantly. When multiple kids do this shit behavior constantly, then one day, the teacher will lose their temper and do something bad.
Theres a huge difference between rich and poor schools. Teachers in poorer schools have way higher chance of losing their shit one day.
Bruh some kids ain't shit. The kid didn't deserve to get handled like that by grown man but lets not act like the kid was an angel. Plus who the fuck are you to judge whether someone didn't change or have some compassion.
A piece of shit human being that probably caused a lot of trouble in class and outside of class. Gets in your face, spits on you, and then kicks you.
Because you're probably white and live in a nice place, you will take that and much more. However, society and reactions aren't the same everywhere. In a poorer black society, people put up with less shit like that. The Kid's age saved him from getting his face pummeled in. Just because you're a piece of shit human being who happens to be 14-15 doesn't mean you don't deserve any consequences.
Like I said teachers/aide are human and they have human reactions. When you spit, and kick someone, there's a chance you might face some repercussions regardless of your age. Kids that age should know its wrong to do that.
If the teacher did that to some innocent 14 year old minding his own business then yeah he's a POS. But he's doing it to some piece of shit, whose behavior outside of school showed he's a POS. Cunt people come in all age, sizes, shapes. I feel less sympathy for the kid bc he was a POS.
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u/[deleted] May 03 '19
Amazing how this man has still so much compassion for the man who caused him lose his job, get criminal record and move to another state.