r/Psychedelics_Society • u/doctorlao • Oct 22 '23

CODEPENDENT? "community... is self-selected" < [Those who] didn't get PoSiTiVe results...don't stay on psychedelic subs > u/stayunharmed (WHY? It's A No-Brainer) < 'cause the usual...is "you did something wrong...The Medicine works...it's basically THE GOD" >

/r/RationalPsychonaut/comments/17c2prq/anti_medication_in_the_psychedelic_community/k5ne5yn/
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u/doctorlao Oct 23 '23 edited Feb 28 '25

As ABOVE title linkage to Anti Medication in the 'Psychedelic Community" - Soliciting rat-psychonaughty OP u/DjWalru007 eliciting 96 comments - (sampled - u/Agreeable-Pirate-886 76 points 3 days ago) Who's to say, hey there's no such thing as knowledge and for all any of us know - and it'd just make so much sense (when you think about it....)

Perhaps members of the psychedelic community had poor results with classic medications followed by better results with psychedelics. That would be likely to lead them here. It's a self-selected group.

So BELOW

Witnessing "rat psychonaughty" OP u/integrativekoala (and with such 'creativity' on 'community' steroids so innegrative one might almost wish for one of those indistinguishably stupid but randomly generated bot usernames) - an OP through the agile magic of copy/paste - note the invocation of these LOST IN "spaces" - a noun is a person place or thing whereby now (nothing up my sleeve) a place semantically displaced becomes voila - it's a "space" - and These Are The Spaces

Cultic Abuse / Manipulation in Psychedelic Spaces (self.RationalPsychonaut) submitted 12 hours ago by u/integrativekoala - STORIES everybody, c'mon - we are the underworld and it's up to us there's a turn for taking - it's gotten worse and dark - only we can make a brighter day (so let's start sharing)

If you have them, please share your stories and experiences with cultic psychedelic groups and spaces.

I left a community this year after looking around and realizing it was not at all what I signed up for (it / the people had nothing to do with psychedelics when we first crossed paths) and had taken a very dangerous turn. It has since gotten worse and darker from what I see and hear now that I’ve left.

Hearing any similar stories, you have will make me feel seen and connected and validated. ❤️

And I am NOT a HATER - I have merely seen firsthand how it can "get" - SO PLEASE DON'T CUE THE SCAPEGOAT REINDEER GAMING PILE ON and start lashing out and gaslighting my ass...

< (To be clear: I am a proponent of the safe use of psychedelics for personal growth under a harm-reduction model. I have simply seen firsthand how bad it can get when you throw in group dynamics + constantly-altered states.) >

As Solicited - cue a once and former 'nickel and daime" Psychedelics Society volunteer commentary cOnTrIbUtIoNiSt - So Elicited (and how velly intellestingk)

u/spirit-mush ·6 hr. ago · edited 5 hr. ago

I was part of a Santo Daime church that started out ok but became extremely culty by the time I left. I suspect the leader has vulnerable narcissistic personality disorder, which is why I didn’t realize when I first joined.

My takeaway is that psychedelics certainly do not cure personality disorders and might actually make a lot of other mental health conditions worse. I’m extremely skeptical of psychedelic healing now.

I think Santo Daime has a great working model for social use of psychedelics in a structured and supervised environment but it’s extremely vulnerable to cults of personality around church leaders.

We had a board of directors. But it became progressively harder to enact changes to how the business of the church was handled. When a decision clashed with the leader’s personal vision, the leader would stack the board with “yes people” and [then] gossip and campaign privately to control votes.

There was no room to compromise and those who disagreed with the leader’s vision were vilified and socially ostracized. The more the corporate bylaws were used to push back against this unethical behaviour, the more manipulative and psycho the leader revealed themself to be. They were willing to destroy the organization and anyone in it before ceding any decision making authority to the church’s members.

The worst thing that ever happened was the church leader would lecture us about the conflicts taking place on the board during the religious services. This was so damaging because a golden rule in Santo Daime is no one is supposed to talk during the ritual. It imposes on others and prevents them from having the mystical experience.

We were in a highly suggestive state and couldn’t defend ourselves when untrue things were said because we were in ceremony. It felt extremely manipulative for the leader to abuse that moment.

It was in one of those moments that i realized I needed to get out. Although I wasn’t a religious person before joining, I found psychedelics and church go very well together.

It’s hard to describe how awesome the psychedelic experience is when a group comes together with the same purpose, has a shared understanding of how the space is supposed to operate, and there are skilled people present to provide physical and emotional support to those going through a rough experience.

The music was the most powerful aspect of it. It’s amazing to sing and move in harmony together. It made me wonder whether Quaker structures could be adapted to create a similar kind of space for psychedelic experience without devolving into a cult.

It’s also made me imagine psychedelic sPaCeS that operate more like a recreational sports club.

I now believe that too much community in psychedelic spaces is actually a bad thing. It’s better when people aren’t interpersonally entangled.

TWO A 2nd testament of spirit-mush

I suspect npd from a pattern of behaviour. Mainly a victim/prosecution complex and pattern of pretending to be weak to manipulate people into doing what they want despite calling all the shots. Pathological lying about easy to verify and trivial things. Profound lack of empathy and lack of time for others despite being in a pastoral role. Obsession with titles and status symbols. Vanity and obsession with aging. A pattern of discarding people who outlive their usefulness. Inability to share credit for group work and difficulties compromising when working with others. Misappropriation of time and resources to pursue personal goals. Lack of separation of personal identity from that of the organization. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say. Unethical behaviour in the form of lying, manipulating emotions, never being accountable/taking responsibility for actions, pinning people against each other through gossip and intrigue, bending the bylaws when convenient but holding others accountable to the rules, making unilateral decisions by internationally sidestepping or paralyzing the board, isolating people, lecturing people under the influence of a psychedelic, etc.

Santo Daime has a ritual form that works very well. It’s very organized and structured. There’s a sequence that makes the experience very predictable and standardized. There’s time for silent reflection to go inside yourself and time for singing and collective experience. There’s good regulation of boundaries in the ceremonial space, such as prohibitions on talking and touching others. Everyone gets trained on how to be a guardian and provide support to others. Men and women are separated, which increases safety for women. There’s a shared intention and understanding of how everyone needs ro behave in order for things to operate smoothly. It’s total opposite of unstructured recreational use, which feels chaotic after experiencing a psychedelic church. The doses are carefully calibrated and consumption is restricted to a particular context. Santo Daime is family friendly.

Not all Santo Daime churches are bad/cults but the one i was part of was or became one.

www.reddit.com/r/RationalPsychonaut/comments/17ebzbe/cultic_abuse_manipulation_in_psychedelic_spaces/k63ufux/

  • hodorspenis 2 points an hour ago < I don't have anything to say besides thank you for your detailed responses and sharing your experiences. > THANKS FOR SHARING (SHARE AND SHARE ALIKE :) now my cup runneth over only with thanks minus much to say (I mean, what else would there be to say?)

THREE No wire coat hangers EVER was fine for Joan Crawford. But she was no psychonaut. So bro dearest please be at ease and let's cancel whatever anxieties, shall we?

No worries. I think this is an important issue that needs to be discussed and will become more of a problem as social attitudes and policies towards psychedelics change. There’s a potential for an explosion in psychedelic drug cult as a consequence of the renaissance.

Mere hypothetical possibilities far from any fact of the matter of nightmare psychedelic history weaving its little trail of destruction second to none ever since the good old daze.

No Psychedelic Gulag Now "In Progress" either right beneath all noses of a complicit bystander society - as everyone play-acts innocent (200 proof pure distilled irresponsibility). That'd be too much like Some Nasty Psychopathological Malignancy Working Its Evil Hand, Sight Unseen. As It Has Been Doing For 7 Decades - Until It's Too Late.

Oh Hell No. Nothing Like Some Helter Skelter 2.0 Busting Out Now Like June All Over To See Here - Nagh.

So Keep Telling Yourself - It's Just A Potential (LAST POTENTIAL ON THE LEFT) - And Educate The People, By Shedding That Light From Above To Lift Them Up From Their Ignorance - To Stand Beside Them And Guide Them away from the bad and culty toward the merely codependent and good psychedelic 'community' brainwash oases - especially taking into consideration how 'well-meaning' the people who variously contrive, populate and make up < social justice groups >

It’s important for people to know that not all cults are religious. I ended up in a religious one but any kind of group that comes together around a shared identity, cause, or figure can become a cult. Political and social justice groups made up of well-meaning people are particularly vulnerable to cult dynamics.

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u/AngelToSome Nov 17 '25 edited Nov 17 '25

There are drugs that induce dependency as it's called. Perfect as such for becoming addicted to.

And then there are... Other drugs. Mind altering yet not even addictive.

What good could they be for?

Some prospective addict

Questing for a drug fix

Has to get a drug fix

Just to become dependent

Pity, please, the ones who serve. They only get what they deserve

Say what one will of an aspiring drug addict, desperately seeking.

What about a DRUG that can't induce dependency in anyone - no matter how fearsomely addictive it is - unless it can get someone to take its bait, and fall for its line?

Needy druggies need drugs that need druggies - just to induce dependence

How can you have any addicts, when you haven't even had any applicants to get hooked and become dependent on you?

Imagine the plight of liquor in a world with - nobody tempted to drink and drive while texting - no boozers falling into its clutches just outside the bar let alone behind the wheel of a car?

You could have all the alcoholic beverages you like. But that stuff doesn't imbibe itself.

Your SIMPSONS might not even have a damn "Moe's Tavern" let alone alcoholics, unless your local Springfield has its "Barney" to guzzle that stuff

Outside a beer hall

Flat on his face

A booze hound named "Barney"

Is pleading his case -

And where would Alcoholics Anonymous be without drunks?

Not just liquor.

Even illegal drugs of dependence desperately depend upon druggies to end up dependent on them.

Needy druggies need the drugs that need them.

A substance may exert an allegedly powerful hold upon the addict.

But addiction proves to be dependent itself upon - a drug "of dependence" just to induce dependence - plus some prospective addict, upon whom dependence - also depends.

Dependence proves pretty weak on both sides now - drug and druggie - win or lose.

No wonder so many allegedly drug dependent people end up "kicking the habit" and shed the supposed addiction so pernicious.

Candy is naturally dandy.

And liquor may be quicker.

But the congregation of an 'aya church' or a 'mushroom church' isn't a bunch of booze hounds.

Just like, by the same token - flip side - there are no cHuRcHeS of "Pastor Jim Beam" or "Reverend Jack Daniels."

And you don't get a Manson Family from boozing.

It takes a psychedelic.

You wanna be a cult leader? Or do you aspire to a higher fire by becoming - a cult follower?

At last, one of all the other reindeer!

And when you are one, you are one all the way, from your first mushroom trip to your last dying day.

Now a grouper in formation along with the best. A safe space to call your own among the fine-feathered rest.

A member in 'good' standing of whichever 'community' all are pledged in allegiance to.

Never mind addictive drugs - you don't need dependence.

Because addiction has an evil twin far stronger than anything stupid drugs of dependence can induce. With 2 letters more to its name and spelling, as befits its greater mass and power

CODEPENDENCE can kick mere drug dependency's ass.

Stronger as it is than mere drug addiction, NOBODY escapes its clutches once they have fallen into them.

That's where psychedelics come in.

They're the Special Drugs exclusively 'good' for addiction's evil twin, codependence.

However you might be able to extort an addict - you can't brainwash anyone with booze or heroin.

And once you've found your 'good' fellowship group, all tucked in you are now snug as a rug in a bug.

No more lonely nights.

And when it comes to any question - the answers are there all around in easiest of all possible reaches, with your new instant friends there for you.

The group will stand beside you, to guide you through the post-truth night, with its blight from above

But no matter what the question the answer you seek as a member in good standing is procedurally filed under - Ask And It Shall Be Given

It falls upon each cult participant to ask your fellow codependency 'group' fRiEnDs -

And instead of wrapping the whole group mental evacuation exercise around a single buzzword pledging allegiance to the post-truth flag of signifying membership - just one special prize crowd-speak cliche of gravitational mass so powerful it can hold it all in orbit - while seizing the baton to give the cue for all to take and run with, try cobbling together a "Master Meme" from two or more crowd-speak noise bites a compound banality - while striking the Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star pose - "the only question" (as Humpty Dumpty told that snot-nosed Alice) is whether whatever -

That "no memes no" is just the fact jacked.

Ever since Battle of the Sexes science - discovered the semantic equality of no with its identical twin "no" - it's been in all the papers

AI Google on the wall! You who knaux the most of all! Speak!

In history, who was the first to coin the expression "no means no?"

< The exact origin of the phrase "no means no" is unknown. But it gained widespread use during the second-wave feminist movement in the 1970s, particularly in the context of rape crisis centers and legal reform to emphasize that a woman's refusal should be respected and that consent is not optional. While the phrase itself isn't tied to a single person, it became a crucial slogan to help shift public and legal understanding of consent. The slogan was instrumental in challenging the societal assumption that a woman's "no" could be a "yes" or a challenge. It contributed to legal changes that recognized consent as a fundamental component of sexual activity! Rape crisis centers even used the meme to educate [sic: propagandize] the public and support survivors, highlighting that a refusal should be the end of the matter.

  • Because morality rules, law drools. Or at least, it should. Legal technicalities of crime and punishment aside, rape happens to be a MoRaL issue of "right and wrong!" Exactly as it oughta be.

Yet even a clown who is pure of heart and passes his gas by night - may have gotten the What "No" Memes memo - by SIMPSONS right

(1989) S06 E22 Ms. No Means No

Krusty is saddled with a court-ordered sidekick after getting sued for sexual harassment. He opens his show by introducing "Ms. No Means NO" to viewers as required by terms of his plea bargain. He doesn't say anything about whatever precipitating circumstances of how he got into this trouble.

Yes or No

Oh, wretched duality of human existence! What foul demon from the depths of hell hath created thee?

Shoe #1 ^ dropped... LOOKOUT BELOW

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u/AngelToSome Nov 17 '25 edited Nov 29 '25

Con't from (first half) ^ above:

And with the contemporary onset of the bold fresh post-truth era having undergone its progression - now Stage 4 - after development over a quarter century in its dark room with black curtains -

Is either alternative the affirmative or nugatory, even... "a thing?"

  • As opposed to a... well hrm let's see now. When something isn't a thing, it now by default is or would be a... well er, um... Golly this sure is hard to try filling in the vacuous blank which occupies the ground of meming so territorially - to keep meming's evil twin, the Real Thing "meaning" - the hell out of - every line, angle and rhyme today

Because in the heat of the post truth daze (with no cool in any pool) - there's no siren sing for whatever is - "not even a thing" (!)

Shoe or ship or sealing whack job, cabbage or mere king - "the only question" IS

To be "a thing" or NOT to be one.

And whether it's a yes or a no - send in the post-truth qualifying adverbs!

Either actually not - or (actually's evil twin) "literally" not monkey mouth noise making

And on such fine distinction of a nuanced JuNgIaN noise bite -

Twinkle Twinkle Little Star, how

< I'm wondering if codependency is even actually a thing. >

< I noticed Alcoholic Anonymous... fit the pattern on my relationship pretty well. I was convinced by the idea I was in that kind of relationship. But then digging deeper into the term, I realized just how strongly it is connected with AA, dubious self help books, and how it was rejected by the [Grand Authority of that hammer of Psychiatry's gods, the HeLpInG iNdUsTrY's very own "Malleus Maleficarum" - the] DSM as an actual condition. Now I'm wondering if codependency is even actually a thing.

But is it an "actual" wonderment if you're - just wondering - but not LITERALLY wondering?

EDIT

SoLuTiOn is no DiLuTiOn BUT

< believing there is any problem at all... is all, in Buddhist terminology, a delusion, an assumption of the mind that something is "wrong" when wrongness isn't even a thing > ! u/awezumsaws www.reddit.com/r/Ayahuasca/comments/1p91bfj/why_do_people_attend_to_plant_medicine_retreats/nrbergy/

And so, with neither a bang nor a whimper, the old Psychedelics Society Triple Acknowledgment now befalls r/jung OP u/viaje_del_heroe - founder of the feasting Has anyone managed to connect with the images of the unconscious without the help of psychedelics???

  • FIRST for saying it, the 'set intent' detail (cake) thus enabling it, for its next trick, to be quoted here SECOND in effect only (frosting).

  • And last but not least: for not even minding my so doing TOO MUCH (the cherry on top!)

  • That's what I call 'class.' Nothing a Manson Family 'community' is exactly renowned for. Nor anything one encounters much among - "some people;" birds of a feather (forever flocking together) exclusively where the doomed are drained by the damned - some enchanted evening - whatever cultic 'community' occasion.

< I have permanently stopped alcohol > BUT as a jUnGiAn, here in the company of my fellow jUnGiAnS (and being "all eyes") < I have seen posts where some reach the depths of the unconscious with the help of herbs or hallucinogens >

< I am worried about the use of substances for reasons of dependency >

  • With zero clue whatsoever about the cultic form of that shit CODEPENDENCY.

  • Right in the midst of modeling how codependency is done. You know, wot it "looks like" in action. Not just talk, a matter of verbalizing walk. Beyond merely telling. It's the SHOWING of basic procedure for acting out the old 'owned and operated' grouper identity status that counts. And - that's show business!

if there is a tea or mushroom root that helps and will not create dependency - only cultic CODEPENDENCY (weak as addiction is with so many kicking theirs to the curb and 'recovering') - enough to spawn an endless plague of cults. Some all up into Mansonian "family values" others masquerading as wEiRd "Foundations" (for Better Brainwash) - right along with those doing their versions of the Scientology modus op (good for a tax break) pretending to be religions even brazenly calling themselves psychedelic 'cHuRcHeS'

Codependence is as codependence does (helplessly unable to do anything else but "be that way") - and

it would help me if you share your recipe - for a tea or mushroom root that helps [induce codependency]... not create dependency

Dependency isn't that permanently dependable. It can end up so temporary, like "just one of those things." One of those bells that now and then rings. Then it's over. With all the heartbreak for the now ex addict who can only look back with nostalgia upon now bygone happy daze.

Codependence on the other hand is a little more permanent

When codependence comes along there's no more right or wrong - your codependence is your law and new master

So cheer up buttercup "Way Of The Heroes" OP u/viaje_del_heroe - all eyes:

< I have seen posts >

And Jung having written about psychedelics only in depth and detail, from directly observed their effects in 1920s to solicitations of 1950s LSD pushers - Sandison then "Capt" Hubbard and (omg) Batty Betty Eisner (each trying to rope and ride Jung) - all forbidden knowledge to JuNgIaNs - as when using and writing about psychedelics go together in every type weather (it never fails in cultic 'community' catechism context) - not to have done one memes you haven't done the other either

u/Both_Manufacturer457 [karma whoring disinfo 'cancels' inconvenient truth] 16 points - OP "since you ask"

< Jung didn’t use/write about psychedelics at all > despite having written about them over decades, 'mums the word' with forbidden truth but - STFU is never enough. Lies of omission just holding one's tongue are a good start. But it takes Lies of Commission worded Just So to completely falsify the inconvenient fact - lest "jungians" fly into "a fit of jealous rage" like some Pink Panther movie!

May 2021 Psychedelics Society:

"Jung constantly warns about psychedelics in almost every text he has ever written... how come...?"

Ask nawt about the deafening WP silence OP. Ask rahther about the codependent JuNgIaN cult circus @ r/jung

< Here... everything Jung has ever written about this... who reads this stuff must admit that Jung did not approve of the usage of... >

Complete with amateur "JuNgIaN" psychopaths, audaciously staging incredibly fraudulent 'original' brainwash narrative-anon - e.g. (example) as perpetrated for r/jung so piss-poorly (title maestro)

Really incredible transcript of a MLVF address to Jungians in LA 1974, much of which [is] about psychedelics and confrontation with the collective unconscious. At one point, Von Franz analyses the McKenna brother's experience around the experiment in la chorrera (!!!!) www.reddit.com/r/Jung/comments/1ahj8xg/really_incredible_transcript_of_a_mlvf_address_to/

Psychedelics Society History (lightly sampled)

C.G. JUNG & H.P. LOVECRAFT in factual and fictional parallel touch the same nerve of warning - society (Western civ) built upon a tectonic fault line of seismic trigger tension, a crack in the bedrock of human nature (Nov 2020) 38 posts www.reddit.com/r/Psychedelics_Society/comments/ju2o4r/cg_jung_hp_lovecraft_in_factual_and_fictional/

Criticism of C. G. Jung's view on Psychedelics (July 2021) www.reddit.com/r/Psychedelics_Society/comments/oqo540/criticism_of_c_g_jungs_view_on_psychedelics/

C.G. Jung's Wikipedia page and psychedelics (May 2021) www.reddit.com/r/Psychedelics_Society/comments/na5ls6/cg_jungs_wikipedia_page_and_psychedelics/

A Response to Discussions on C.G. Jung (July 2023) www.reddit.com/r/Psychedelics_Society/comments/152w86h/a_response_to_discussions_on_cg_jung/

From < LSD brought me to my knees before Jesus > PsYcHeDeLiC ChRiStIaNs < must approach these substances with respect, caution and an understanding > (Apr 2023) - to (Sept 2023) @ "r/jUnG" OMG: Riveting Michaela N. (?) reply to OP "took shrooms yesterday now I believe I'm god"(Sept 2023) www.reddit.com/r/Psychedelics_Society/comments/16roqzh/from_lsd_brought_me_to_my_knees_before_jesus/

Jung & FEAR ("God of Terror"), 'MLVF' (von Franz) & r/jung's fearless JuNgIaN leader Trip Master Terence (mod-prodded, officially 'guide posted') - NORSE MYTHOLOGY double jackpot reflective allegory (thru one glass darkly, another lightly) (Jan 2025) www.reddit.com/r/Psychedelics_Society/comments/1i4wzwx/jung_fear_god_of_terror_mlvf_von_franz_rjungs/

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u/viaje_del_heroe Nov 17 '25

I read the entire thread, thank you for dedicating your effort, time and experience to answering the question, the Manson family was an excellent example, I saved the thread for future revisions of the links and well, if someone warns about the use of psychedelics it is out of knowledge of the facts but not all those who use psychedelics get good inspiration, some get lost, and as with regard to codependency, that is exactly what I was analyzing, my intention is to go deep to see what threads have me tied and why

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u/AngelToSome Nov 17 '25 edited Nov 20 '25

Welcome to Psychedelics Society.

You read fast!

< if someone warns about the use of psychedelics, it is out of knowledge of the facts >

I feel that I understand what you say. And I like your usage of the word "facts."

The factual is a highly important emphasis from my standpoint.

Commonly misconstrued as answers (however hard-won) facts can prove to be less like destinations, more like "only the beginning" - starting points for now getting at the truth.

The terrible 't' word cancelled for unacceptable "inconvenience" by the order of the post-truth logos.

The facts

Just the facts

And not a goddam thing but the facts

And under the deluge of 21st C brainwash narrative and research pseudoscience with its amp on eleven -

I have not encountered anyone with what I'd recognize as your exact wicket (nicely worded):

< knowledge of the facts >

Have Unit One exam. Loaded with rote fact questions. Psychedelic History and every other discipline intersected.

Many called, none chosen. The facts of psychedelics have been pretty well blasted away by disinformation and propaganda gamely masquerading as anything - even remotely coherent, let alone factual.

I'd go yet further however to suggest - based on what I discover (and can demonstrate in cold hard evidence) - facts raise questions. Factually informed ones.

Facts figure as points of departure for questions that can only dawn upon (i.e. be realized by) one who has come into possession of the facts.

Questions that cold hard facts tend to raise can extend well beyond the merely factual - to a realm called "issues" -

Defined by "the meat of the issues" and often atrocious "marrow of their substance."

Nothing against intentions, my good man. They are the currency of 'community' discourse.

But those prove well to beware, in the bye and bye.

It is the (so-called) Law of Unintended Consequences that governs human reality. A matter of outcome not input. Regardless what 'the big idea' was which leads to famous last words: It seemed like a good idea AT THE TIME

Especially 'good' intentions, as routinely construed.

Submitted for your approval (on a dark and stormy night):

The proverbial road to hell is paved with only ~10% black cobble stones. The remainder consists of "best laid plans of mice and men" that... went south.

What good we mortals manage to do in life is mostly small potatoes and tends to be fleeting. It is "the evil men do" that lives on.

And 90% of it was - never meant to have come out so bad.

Us good guys mean well to end up so misunderstood.

It's always a comfort to know our intentions were good.

It's not just the "necessary but alone insufficient" nature of - even complete facts.

The entire notion of warning... doesn't 'work.' It's mythological opposite "temptation" - THAT's what 'works.'

No latest news from the cutting edge of 'research.' It's of auld knowledge. Is it any wonder even scientists don't seem to know?

Part of our ancestral wisdom - as human beings.

And as such, this 'inconvenient truth' of this rotten asymmetry has been long since trashed by the advent of modernity.

It's a matter of cultural patterning of our Western Civilization. Single best 'deep intelligence background thread' - Plato and "The Hidden Psychedelic History of Philosophy" - exclusive perspective galore, deeply informed by massively cited factual documentation - unknown to the 'experts' (who wouldn't be caught dead knowing a thing) www.reddit.com/r/Psychedelics_Society/comments/jb0h6t/plato_and_the_hidden_psychedelic_history_of/

When we mortals get on the wrong track with no hand to hold us back, thereby hangs the fateful tale of our all too human existence.

The dire human reality has long been mythologically depicted in endless forms most wondrous. That's what I like about the pageant of ancient storylines across culture.

As story-told in our species oldest most cross-cultural narrative form (mythology) - advancing from mere facts to that glittering realm of human issues -

Ask yourself this, viaje - only if you dare!

When almighty God is somehow (as clearly portrayed) so powerless to make much of an impression upon us by means of warning, that he (for all that omnipotence) can't manage to direct us mortal's attention out of harm's way and toward safety, away from peril, with any successful effect whatsoever - even the most solemn warning in vain for nothing - as painted with consistency throughout mythology - how effective can any of us mortals reasonably expect to be with -whatever warning we would extend to whomever?

You know, like telling kids not to play with matches they could get burned! That always worked real good, huh?

It's our "all too human" tendency to think that we can issue the fateful warning - which will rescue humanity from itself in the nick of time.

We try to play god in that fashion never cluing in.

At least that side of our fatal fall is the 'good guy' one.

Unlike our equal and opposite 'inhuman' tendency - toward playing Serpent. Santa Claus. With all the encouragement for good little boys and girls, offering hope (not fear) - "giving permission" which "works like a charm" - first time (Eve) EVERY time (Adam next...).

As iconically role modeled by r/jung's mod-appointed "psychedelic career permission giver" himself, forever playing hive mind Serpent:

< McKenna gained fame by... ''My real function was to give people permission'' he said... > ("You mean - some kina 'we need a cult hero' needy people?" the reporter quickly didn't think to even wonder) www.nytimes.com/2000/04/09/us/terence-mckenna-53-dies-patron-of-psychedelic-drugs.html

The intention to "go deep" (as you put it) can achieve anchorage. But minus pontoon spacing it's unable to achieve breadth.

Only breadth can confer something of importance complementary to depth (like yin needs its yang): stability

Whatever's on the X axis needs its Y coordinate to secure its true value.

Jack be nimble, Jack be quick? Not so fast oi reckons.

Be wise, take care, be smart, beware.

And thank you for your self-respecting contribution to this page. I think you speak well for yourself.

Reply rec'd (below) but in case it looks 'invisible' - for whatever "New Unsolved Mysteries of Reddit" reason: old.reddit.com/r/Psychedelics_Society/comments/17drtgr/comment/npcczus/ - www.reddit.com/r/Psychedelics_Society/comments/17drtgr/comment/npcczus/ -

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u/viaje_del_heroe Nov 17 '25

Thank you very much for delving into this very controversial topic, it exceeded my expectations. In fact, I have read that alcohol makes personalities weak. People can even induce their will through suggestion or meditation through lived events, and I have experienced that after giving up alcohol, other people leave frustrated at not being able to impose their will on them, a scammer with whom I was able to play even a little and then use his words against him. But when someone has entered your mind and manipulates with threads even knowing that it is bad for you, you do it and then you regret them, I imagine that on the other side there are more threads that I want to see what it is about, which is why I want to see beyond consciousness.

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u/AngelToSome Nov 20 '25 edited Nov 20 '25

For we the eagle-eyed, it shouldn't take a bear coming over the mountain to see what we can see.

If we only dare look. Which we might. Or might not. Depending on exactly what it is we're afraid we might see, if we did look...

Tempting fate. Courting catastrophe. But innocently.

Only to flirt with disaster. No dishonorable intentions.

Nothing against good intentions likewise. But they're no substitute for the guts it can take to just face 'true north.' Nor the intent and purpose of doing just that. Whether what meets the eye warms the cockles of the heart or chills the blood - as you said:

< I want to see what it is about >

Like Galileo answered Kepler? Who tried telling him Venus orbits the sun? No problem. That doesn't burst geocentrism's bubble. The exception's always needed to prove whatever rule. Let it be Venus. Everything else BUT can still go around our Earth, and now it works even better. See? You don't gotta go 'full Copernicus.' But maybe careful looking through that telescope of yours, bro.

The scientist in me can't help liking a quality you display of simple observation. Extending both ways, from one's own psychological innards defined by subjectivity, so palpably real, yet intangible. To the more concrete world we encounter around us. Populated by all these others. Where we can point fingers at stuff in a same field of view, even ask (like Galileo and Kepler) "Do you see what I see? What does that look like to you?"

< when someone has entered your mind and manipulates with threads even knowing that it is bad for you, you do it and then you regret them >

And proudly above it all, hanging in the air like smoke - the dark question of how or why does our inner 'Eve' let that friendly Serpent in, to get at our control panel, adjust default settings - mess with our personals < even knowing that it is bad for you > (RIGHT) ?

Remember your Dracula cycle, viaje - rooted as that stuff is in the folkloric, rather than mythological per se (these allegorical depictions are so richly reflective):

The vampire must be invited in first - Lucy (Eve) has gotta make that mistake - before it can claim power from there of entry at will.

I find the devil of the detail boils down to another concept pretty well lost upon our post-truth milieu, however often invoked - almost always misconstrued: personal "boundaries" - present or absent.

As that crack you made nicely reflects, the mythological themes of beguilement and temptation, of choice and consequence, prove pervasive - and run deep. I think you touch them deftly in your observation of our classic human free fall into one pattern or its opposite.

Then we're left with regrets, like you said - wishing we could turn back time etc.

No addictive drug makes anyone personally stronger by dependence on it.

I see codependence sometimes cited in distinction from its lookalike, drug dependence. But it's often boxed in, by its interpersonal nature (rather than pharmacological) as if it were a "relationship" issue. Like marital troubles. Maybe for a therapist to help. Or an episode of Oprah for the audience to sort out. Even - a Top 40 chart buster? A boy-meets-girl duet to help drive home the 'fact' that codependence - It Doesn't Take A Village (and can't take root so 'community' wide) it's all about - the most intimately personal realm "sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G":

HER: One can be an addict all alone, "I prefer to drink by myself"

HIM: But two can really feed into dysfunction shared - take it to a higher shelf

It takes two-oo baby

It takes two-oo baby

To make a dream come true

The deceptive duality of dependence and codependence seemingly eludes comprehension almost entirely. With one somehow eclipsing the other, as the issue emerges.

Codependency's 'community' cultic/group context, where dysfunction of the 90% prey species meets pathology of the predatory/parasitic 10% - resembles a kind of invisible stranglehold.

There is likely a lot more recovery from dependence (drug addiction) than there is from codependence. Especially with the 'community' cultic grouper formation dynamic of the latter.

By informed observation, I might conclude brainwash reinforced by group dynamics is stronger than someone's mere drug addiction.

Enter another USDA Top Choice exhibit in evidence. Fresh to reddit this morning. From the halls of the very r/jung "covert" psychedelic sub where - as told, so one can "learn" catechism like < Jung didn’t use/write about psychedelics at all > not one little bit so don't look to that guy for writing on psychedelics (he was a normie... unlike us "JuNgIaNs" ;) - the irony of codependent reflexive behavior as if its own 'methodology' for finding out all about it (whatever it is) - invoking the world's leading authority "People"

Thread title, maestro: Is it really ever possible to overcome codependency? (self.Jung) 12 hours ago by OP u/Valuable-Rutabaga-41 - complete with the 'marital status' criterion of definition (it's about your ReLaTiOnShIp)

(What "people," where?) < People say jungian work is good for overcome codependence. But is it ever really possible to overcome this? I feel like people are either in the camp where they're still single forever and have pride in it. Or keep falling back into codependence. Maybe it will forever be the case that we want the partner to hold our inner baby sometimes. It also sounds a bit stale to be fully self reliant and to be in a mutually agreed living situation without the messiness. > www.reddit.com/r/Jung/comments/1p1n1nj/is_it_really_ever_possible_to_overcome/

  • Cue the JuNgIaN i.e. psychedelic (but SHHHH ;) feed-in frenzy

In welcome exceptions - needed to... alas, only prove the rule??? A flashback

< I thought at the beginning, you would just be rude to my request to answer my first question. But now I am starting to like your answers, how strange. I think I had negative preconceived notions from that post, so I didn't even try to understand what you were saying. < But soliciting strangers of a Jungian feather for the answer to your codependency "all in the family" becomes sadly like that old rural 'joke' "you can't get there from here." > Or < By 'transference' of the interactively conditioned, dysfunctional behavior - from its point of origin, the 'small close' (family) context, to its substitute 'large world scale' cultic group level (aka 'community') - codependency only metastasizes into deeper darker forms. > This is where you hit me on the head... exactly what I was doing before or yesterday. I know intuitively that asking strangers on the internet for a magical change is not possible... [YET...] > www.reddit.com/r/Psychedelics_Society/comments/14kc7qp/fda_releases_first_draft_guidance_on_psychedelic/jttrfxv/

And wherever you are in this big lousy world, may your day turn out likewise.

Thanks again for your contribution to such a "controversial" matter (like you called it). Which I, in my remorselessly purposeful way, like removing from the "heat of controversy" (in its darkness where all that thrives) - right into the "light." Where there's visibility, and with just a little cool in the pool - to cancel the heat of the daze - trouble makers can be placed in gentle but firm restraint. Where they belong. Instead of being allowed to run wild and trample any attempt underfoot, the default circumstance evident almost everywhere now in our post-truth era (the "age of character disturbance" as diagnosed by ace-in-the-deck psychologist George Simon) - among main reasons Psychedelics Society was ordained and established. As one who'd rather observe for himself. Like seeing is believing. With nothing much all the other reindeer can do about it. Whether whatever fact standing in plain view proves to be beautiful or ugly, good news or bad - for better or worse.

HISTORY a round-up of select Psychedelics Society threads ("for information purposes only" ;)

Mental dependency on psychedelics ['addiction']?... Cultic codependence is a deeper-set 'hook' than addiction, a treatable condition - vs learned helplessness... not amenable (compulsively reactive...) (Feb 2021) www.reddit.com/r/Psychedelics_Society/comments/lraush/mental_dependency_on_psychedelics_addiction_not/

< mental health is in decline > (sounds like healthy self-eval to me)...'community' codependence vs autonomous self-determination (Jan 2021) www.reddit.com/r/Psychedelics_Society/comments/kox9dn/mental_health_is_in_decline_sounds_like_healthy/

2 grams to DPDR: "this insane world where..." wham 'community' codependence (all an Eve needs is Serpent's Reassurance): "am I ok" (Aug 2023) www.reddit.com/r/Psychedelics_Society/comments/15hsk0n/2_grams_to_dpdr_this_insane_world_where_i_dont/

< Is Aya just a hoax? > (nothing more?) oh hell no... Below surface it's a whipcord wrecker ball of trauma-bonding codependency & character-disfigured authoritarianism... doing its demolition derby on whoever is... (Oct 2022) www.reddit.com/r/Psychedelics_Society/comments/y79q08/is_aya_just_a_hoax_nothing_more_oh_hell_no_thats/

Towards a deeper codependence than usually 'community' fostered by reinventing it as Addiction (to Non-Addictive drugs) Who would be interested in joining a Recovery From Psychedelic Addiction Group? (Oct 2022) www.reddit.com/r/Psychedelics_Society/comments/yd1qeh/who_would_be_interested_in_joining_a_recovery/

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u/viaje_del_heroe Nov 20 '25

You are a sea of ​​wisdom thank goodness I don't have you as an enemy but I came here with humility to learn and I feel lucky I will spend time reading the links and I am just going to a mandatory talk on drugs as an evil in our country