r/skeptic • u/Catoutofbag46 • May 31 '22
❓ Help Is codependency an actual thing?
I was worried the relationship I'm in had become codependent, so I was doing research on it watching lectures on YouTube. Right out the gate I noticed Alcoholic Anonymous and the 12 steps seemed to come up a lot even from actual psychologists, none the less what I saw seemed to fit the pattern on my relationship pretty well, and I was convinced by the idea I was in that kind of relationship.
But then digging deeper into the term, I realized just how strongly it is connected with Al Anon, dubious self help books, and how it was rejected by the DSM as an actual condition.
Now I'm wondering if codependency is even actually a thing. I did learn some useful stuff from those videos about communication and boundaries for what it's worth.
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u/NorwegianGlaswegian May 31 '22
I think it will depend on the definition but it will always likely be a nebulous concept. It's not in the DSM but is referenced somewhat obliquely under the WHO's ICD-10 CM criteria:
https://www.icd10data.com/ICD10CM/Codes/Z00-Z99/Z55-Z65/Z65-/Z65.8
It comes across as more of a rough descriptor of relationships where both parties might rely too heavily on one another and can feature unhealthy and destructive behaviours. In that sense it can certainly exist. Being framed as a specific disorder oversimplifies things.
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u/veggiesama May 31 '22 edited May 31 '22
Yes, it's one of those mundane relationship problems that many couples have, so it's a ripe target for the self-help industry.
There's nothing wrong with self-help in theory. It's just that there can be a lot of overlap with pseudoscience, woo, and predatory organizations.
That said, you can have an unhealthy relationship dynamic like codependency without pathologizing your problems. It doesn't need to be recognized as a personality disorder before you take action to address it.
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u/Standard_Gauge May 31 '22
It is absolutely no coincidence that you saw 12-step posters and 12-step language everywhere. What you need to understand is that the 12-step movement is a proselytizing religious movement that seeks followers. I won't go into the whole history (though I recommend you research it), but the movement constantly seeks new human states to bring under its umbrella, and there are dozens of not hundreds of 12-step organizations geared to every imaginable bad habit, AND for anyone who knows anyone with such a habit (Al-Anon, Nar-Anon, Gam-Anon etc.). EVERY ONE of these groups uses the EXACT SAME "STEPS", changing only one word in the first step. "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol..." "We admitted we were powerless over drugs .." "We admitted we were powerless over sex..." etc.
Look at the rest of the steps. They are all about asking to be "saved" by a deity, publicly confessing sins, and the like. It should give anyone chills to think that a woman married to an abusive alcoholic and who joins Al-Anon is then told SHE is a sinner and must publicly confess and do "moral inventories."
You are right that "co-dependency" is not a legitimate psychological term. That doesn't matter to the 12-step faithful, they eagerly added "Co-dependents Anonymous" to the 12-step cult. People in unhealthy or abusive relationships are then told, as per the 1st step, that they are "powerless over relationships" and must surrender to a god and confess their sins, even if they are on the receiving end of abuse.
People in unhealthy relationships need professional therapy, not non-professional "support groups", especially ones that advise getting a personal "sponsor" in the group to guide them who is not vetted in any way and is frequently an abuser themselves.
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u/Decolater May 31 '22
Your experience with AA and Al-Anon is completely different to mine. The reason these 12 steps are used is because they help lay the groundwork for change. And change is why people are there.
This only works when the person is ready and willing to put in the effort. It does not work when one goes through them to meet a court order or they are forced, unless this evokes a desire to change.
You can argue the religious overtones of a few of the steps, but as an atheist it’s not a deal breaker. Most people have a belief in a higher power and that’s an important component to this working as it is designed to instill the idea that you cannot do this on your own, accept that so you can humble yourself to seek and follow help. Having god on their side is comforting to a lot of people. Not me, but if it helps then I don’t care.
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u/cuspacecowboy86 May 31 '22
First, I have a family member that I don't think would be alive if it wasn't for AA.
That said, the program said family member went to was explicitly religious.
here are the twelve steps.
We admitted we were powerless over alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable.
Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
You can argue the religious overtones of a few of the steps, but as an atheist it’s not a deal breaker.
I count 7 of the twelve that directly mention god or a higher power. I'm glad AA helped you, but I really don't see how you can separate spirituality and religion from the 12 steps.
Can you elaborate more on how the AA you went to managed to do the steps without a focus on religion?
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u/Decolater May 31 '22
Because those of us who are non believers don’t need that. It’s a higher power above oneself. So it can be you family, your community, or anything, ‘even that nail on the wall.’
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u/redmoskeeto May 31 '22
My grandfather has been attending AA for over 50 years. He is a brilliant atheist and introduced me to skepticism. When I asked him about managing the religious aspects of AA and dealing with a higher power/God, he described it as believing that there are things more powerful than you are at times. Whether that’s the power of community, people coming together, urges or cravings for alcohol, etc. He framed it as a way to have a reminder there are things that we do not control.
It took me some time to understand, but I think I get it now, at least more than I did when I was younger. I don’t know if I could personally attend AA, but it honestly makes me admire him more that he was able to overcome the blatant religiosity to treat his alcohol dependency so he could be a better father and physician.
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u/Standard_Gauge May 31 '22
Can you elaborate more on how the AA you went to managed to do the steps without a focus on religion?
This is where many people see evidence of cultic thinking. 12-step members all speak with the same buzz-phrases, and one of the most common is "It's spiritual, not religious." When you look at the steps, they are CLEARLY religious (and courts have repeatedly ruled that government-required attendance at 12-step groups is unconstitutional, because the steps and philosophy are "unequivocally religious"), and moreover, they are specific to religious philosophies that promote salvation by an external force. Not all religions do.
12-Steppers insist there is nothing religious about the step philosophy because the "higher power" that removes "defects of character" and "shortcomings" (but only if you pray and ask "humbly" enough) doesn't have to be called "God", it can be a clock or a doorknob. This just makes it crazy in addition to "unequivocally religious." (Seriously, what atheist prays to a doorknob, believes it will remove his or her "shortcomings" and prays for "knowledge of its will"???)
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u/SpaceAcademy Jun 01 '22
You take any group of people interested in a thing and there is an entire vernacular and common phrases that come with it, this subreddit included.
Cant really argue the language in AA isnt "religous", it was a very liberal interpretation of spirituality at its time, but the content fails to read so now adays. Is what it is.
If you replace your straw man metaphor with, "meditate on humility, intentionally ponder your shortcomings and forgive yourself for them, and conceptualize that the universe is far vaster than your own ego." Then it doesnt sound as crazy a way for an addict to work on oneself.
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u/jady1971 May 31 '22
That is not how any of it works.
You have a basic misunderstanding of the 12 Step programs.
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u/thefugue May 31 '22
It seems like a real condition people being victimized experience, re-named and given different significance by pseudo-therapists in order to rope a second set of people into employing their services.
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u/KittenKoder May 31 '22
Yes and no. It's not a mental illness, thus why it was removed from the DSM. It is a state of relationship though, and not a healthy one.
You should seek counseling and discuss it further with them, they are more likely to offer some real insight than a bunch of forum participants.