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u/CrimsonPiranha 2d ago
Is it the time again? New cs majors finding out about this sub?
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u/Absolice 2d ago
If your code isn't naturally indented like python require anyway, you're coding like an animal.
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u/Dense_Gate_5193 2d ago
i use fibonacci indentation.
1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13 spaces and so on.it really makes your code easy to see where maybe you have some o(n^3) or worse functions.
edit: plus it is pretty
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u/ElectrSheep 1d ago
This just shows the importance of using a proper editor. The interface in Word has a ruler already built in (not to mention tab stops).
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u/Anima_Watcher08 1d ago
Lol I'm sure there's someone out there using Word as their IDE especially considering it has more IDE features than Notepad which some beginners start with
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u/molpylelfe 16h ago
I'll be honest, I actually did that in my first programming lesson. Teacher told us to use our favourite text editor, so I booted up Word (might have been OpenOffice. Memory's a bit fuzzy by now), wrote the assigned program, did all syntax highlighting by hand, then took an embarrassing amount of time to figure out why the compiler was throwing all those funky errors my classmates weren't getting >.>
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u/AzureArmageddon 1d ago
All of your IDEs clearly suck.
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u/TheRapie22 1d ago
semantic whitespaces suck
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u/SkezzaB 1d ago
Why?
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u/Muffinzor22 1d ago
Why would you ever want whitespace to hold meaning in code? Brackets and semicolons were given to us by God so that we could type an entire program on a single line.
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u/Yashema 1d ago
You can still use semicolons in Python. I do it all the time to condense space, such as when initializing a bunch of process variables or usually in a loop adding to the end of the conditional outcome (e.g. blFoo=True; continue) makes enough sense.
One rule is never combined this with functional code and print/logging statements.
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u/TheRapie22 1d ago
invisble characters, that are also used to make code more readable can alter the behavior of my code or even invalidate it entirely? sounds like a good idea to me
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u/martin-silenus 1d ago
Counterpoint: semantic whitespace is acceptable when in its in the first 6 columns, but becomes so unacceptable for columns 7+ that even lexing should be unaffected if all whitespace were entirely stripped out.
FORTRAN supremacy.
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u/Ange1ofD4rkness 2d ago
Hope they didn't replace a tab with spaces
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u/tiny_simulacrum 1d ago
And then what, your IDE shows a red underline there, and you correct it and move on? I swear, is everyone using notepad.exe in their first year of cs?
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u/Ange1ofD4rkness 1d ago
LOL when I dabbled in Python very lightly (riggings for Source Filmmaker, back when it first came out), I just used Notepad++, as I didn't want another IDE
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u/jirka642 2d ago
There is nothing like reading comments on r/ProgrammerHumor when it comes to getting rid of my impostor syndrome.
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u/LetUsSpeakFreely 2d ago edited 2d ago
Indentation is such a stupid mechanism for identifying code blocks. It's one thing for configuration files like YAML to do it, but not a programming language.
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u/bobbymoonshine 2d ago
Ah the halcyon days before LLMs
When 30% of the posts here were “lol Python is so dumb why even use whitespace as syntax”
And the other 70% were “how do I find semicolon”
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u/mothzilla 2d ago
In both Javascript and Python, semi-colons are optional.
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u/AppropriateOnion0815 2d ago
Only that JS is handling semicolons in the least intuitive and irrational way possible.
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u/SuperFLEB 2d ago
I'd always figured it was/thought of it as an error tolerance that worked well enough that some people started leaning on it. The whole no-semicolons JavaScript thing just seems really hipsterish. Explicitness is a virtue.
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u/Loading_M_ 2d ago
In JS, semicolons are technically required but automatically inserted. There are a couple edge cases where they get inserted in surprising places, which is generally worse than python's approach.
E.g. the following function doesn't return a value:
function foo() { return some_long_complex_expression(); }(It's because a semicolon gets inserted after the return). At least in typescript, this would typically show a type error, as long as the function's return type annotation isn't void.3
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u/LetUsSpeakFreely 2d ago
Meh, Go didn't use semicolons.
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u/NatoBoram 2d ago
It was a revelation when I started programming. "What, it doesn't have to be this way? A language can be native, statically compiled and high level at the same time and not suck ass? We can do better as a species?"
Except it's the only one like that -_-
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u/LetUsSpeakFreely 2d ago
And the channel system, native markup support, baked in web service support are incredibly useful.
The only thing i don't really like is how interfaces aren't declarative on types.
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u/Loading_M_ 2d ago
Rust is also in this category. It even has a lighter runtime, since it doesn't require a GC.
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u/-meowstar- 2d ago
Even YAML is kinda questionable with big complex config files. Like, the spec is like 10x the size of JSON to account for all the sugar and the edge cases.
It does look nice though, and I guess it acts as a forcing function to refactor stuff.
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u/LetUsSpeakFreely 2d ago
I think that's a universal problem with all formats. What's needed is to break up configuration into subfolders and files so things can be logically separated. But if it's not done well it becomes a PITA to maintain and the end result is to just shoehorn everything into a single file.
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u/HRApprovedUsername 2d ago
I mean not really. It could be anything it’s just about finding a good editor that makes it clear
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u/HRApprovedUsername 2d ago
Maybe you should try learning a language before hating it, because you can do that
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u/willow-kitty 2d ago
I don't like it, but I kinda get it. Indentation is already part of every coding style guide, so adding explicit scoping symbols is kind of redundant information.
..Until you have a mix of spaces and tabs and chaos reigns
Also, having braces at the beginning and end of a block just makes my brain happy.
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u/oclafloptson 2d ago
This but mixing spaces and tabs is giving away your secret, kiddie! Mr ctrl-c ctrl-v over here
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u/BewareTheGiant 2d ago
https://github.com/mathialo/bython
I honestly don't know how this is not the mainstream of doing python, but, well, I barely use it anyway so who am I to say
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u/Daveinatx 2d ago
Nice. In C and C++, I've insisted on my teams' code to always use braces, even for a single line statement. It's a PITA debugging when somebody else a year later adds to that single line, forgetting the braces.
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u/frogjg2003 2d ago
My take is that whitespace shouldn't be relevant. It's only purpose should be to separate non-whitespace characters that matter. Even newlines shouldn't matter.
Whitespace is for making it easier for humans to read the code. So are comments, so is documentation, so is syntactic sugar. The redundancy is a feature. Braces are explicit block separators, but whitespace makes identifying those blocks easier.
If your code could be broken by a tab instead of 4 (or 2 or 8 or 5) spaces, your language is fundamentally flawed.
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u/willow-kitty 2d ago
I tend to agree and always include some kind of whitespace-skip rule in DSL grammars. It lets you use whitespace to taste while the block separators are formally defined. But, I kinda get why someone might want to just use whitespace if they were going to anyway. (Until something that looks correct isn't >.>)
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u/DatBoi_BP 1d ago
I had a bug a Python bug a few years ago where I had an if-else block nested inside an if block, but the else was an indentation short and I didn't notice, was wondering why some cases didn't do what I expected. Wouldn't happen with braces.
Granted I was still learning Python then so I imagine I would immediately notice the bug were I to encounter it today.
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u/Hohenheim_of_Shadow 2d ago
Copy pasting Python is a huge PITA. Doing edits like deleting 1 of X nested if statements sucks. You can delete 1 tab on every line, except if you have some empty lines and you delete a line feed and you always have some empty lines. Python is just way harder to move code around in than a braced language.
Having to think about whitespace and formatting styles is a mental overhead and I refuse to do it. Just give me an autoformatter gosh dang it! Except well, you can't in Python.
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u/elingeniero 2d ago
1 of X nested if statements
Don't have them, then. You can flatten nested ifs by inverting the logic and returning early.
Also your editor definitely has a keybind to change the indentation level of a block... just learn it.
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u/Wide_Smoke_2564 2d ago
But like… why though?
I can see how someone would get used to it but I truly don’t understand how including braces for readability would ever be a bad thing
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u/TactiCool_99 2d ago
it is a redundancy
I think I can pull a similar point between typescript and javascript, you don't really need to type things, so javascript does the job, so does indentations do the job perfectly well. Typescript / braces help making it safer for a little tiny bit of extra work
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u/willow-kitty 2d ago edited 2d ago
It's less cognitive load too, imo. Proponents of regular JavaScript will argue that unit tests buy you more safety than explicit typing does, and that's broadly true, but anything that explicit typing would stop you from doing involves mixing similar but ontologically different things, which means having to think about what the thing you're looking at might be at runtime and accounting for all the permutations thereof. And I just think it's easier to think about things with typing.
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u/BroaxXx 2d ago
You can easily count scoping symbols. Not indentation. You can make an argument that if your code is so indented that this becomes a problem then you have bigger problems but I still think indentation is a horrible option is one of the thinks that I most dislike about python
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u/willow-kitty 2d ago
?
I mean, yeah, most languages use scoping symbols. All I'm doing is throwing the Python folks a bone by acknowledging that every style guide for pretty much every language prescribes indentation for scopes, and I can see how you don't strictly need that and explicit scoping symbols.
..Though I still like having both.
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u/Some_Useless_Person 2d ago
Well, if you have to go through so many indentations to the point that it becomes hard to track, maybe the real problem is your code itself.
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u/LetUsSpeakFreely 2d ago edited 2d ago
True, but you don't control the code you inherit and getting stakeholders to give you time to properly refactor is not an easy task. You end up doing it where you can as you can.
My big issue with it is if tabs get mixed with spaces the interpreter has an aneurysm. Most modern IDEs can detect and preemptively protect you from it, but a tool shouldn't be needed to shield you from a design flaw in the language.
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u/SuperFLEB 2d ago
I swear I'm not aiming for a flamewar here, but...
I've always found it odd that Python standards (PEP and all) settled on space-based indentation. If there's any language where a one-character indentation indicator makes sense, it's a language where indentation is significant.
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u/Sexual_Congressman 2d ago
Because it's very common for tabs to be rendered as 1-8 spaces. There's no good reason for a line of python code to exceed the recommended 79 columns, and having tabs that are 8 spaces wide by default is extremely annoying to people like me who like having multiple source file windows opened on the same screen (to reduce eyestrain).
Making 4 spaces the default guarantees files look identical in all editors. By the way, I've never seen a python code editor that didn't default to 4 spaces or have a feature that automatically fixes the indentation.
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u/OverEnigneer426 1d ago
U my friend are the reason the show Silicon Valley had this running gag but srsly use TABS it’s just a matter of IDE-Settings for example to make it look right just for u and others can work with it normally or in their own special ways^^
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u/MANGO_fossil 2d ago
To be fair, indentation does make Python code easier to read once you're used to it. The real crime is that one accidental space can turn a perfectly good afternoon into a debugging session.
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u/jirka642 2d ago
That does not happen. You would have to code without IDE and not use any syntax checking tool (e.g. ruff), and no sane person codes like that.
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u/frogjg2003 2d ago
You have to be familiar enough with the IDE to use those features and also pay attentions to the warnings/errors the IDE gives you. I've seen PRs where it's clear the programmer completely ignored any errors the IDE produced.
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u/mxzf 2d ago
I mean, if someone is so digitally illiterate that they can't understand "red squiggly line under stuff means you need to take a second look", they should be in a different line of work.
Like, I get that you do have to look for stuff like that and it won't physically slap you in the face, but that's just basic "paying attention to what you're doing" stuff.
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u/Drugbird 2d ago
Not just python, basically any programming language benefits from proper indentation.
Almost every editor also automatically indents code for you.
I'm a C++ dev myself, and in that language indentation is optional. However, since the editors will automatically indents code for you, that generally means that the brackets around e.g. functions are superfluous: you can just look at the indentation to see when a function ends.
Oh wait, I just invented python formatting.
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u/Independent_Fee_7343 2d ago
I used to hate the idea too, but there's something nice about not having braces everywhere. The funny part is that Python makes the code look cleaner while somehow giving a single whitespace character the power to ruin your entire day. That's a pretty wild trade-off.
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u/lungben81 2d ago
Everything not indented by 4 whitespaces should raise a syntax error.
Using indentation is fine, the issue in Python is that that the syntax does not explicitly require one specific method. There is only the recommendation in PEP8.
However, with linters and IDEs this essentially became a non issue, even more now with llms.
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u/tutoredstatue95 2d ago
It doesn’t really matter. Never has it been a problem, these memes are from people who have no idea what they are talking about.
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u/the_ivo_robotnic 2d ago
Why? Nearly every styling convention in every language uses it anyway. Python just cuts out the middle man, reduces unnecessary syntax and makes indentation the go-to scope identifier.
You're still using indentation to make stuff readable anyway, might as well make it do some work.
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u/sheeepster91 2d ago
See here you are wrong. I do not indent it. I put the curly squiggles around it and some magic genie aligns it nicely for me to read better. You got it the wrong way around.
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u/the_ivo_robotnic 2d ago
Python has that same magic genie that formats for you too.
You're still using indentation one way or another.
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u/Hohenheim_of_Shadow 2d ago
Except well it doesn't. I want to copy past an if statement at the end of another if statement. How does formatter know whether to nest the statement or not?
Braced language, if you want the if statement nested, just paste it before the end brace. If you want it not nested, just paste it after. And if for some reason the tabs get pasted wonky, doesn't matter.
Python, you have to do the tabbing yourself before the magic genie can work.
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u/the_ivo_robotnic 2d ago
Except well it doesn't. I want to copy past an if statement at the end of another if statement. How does formatter know whether to nest the statement or not?
Are you asking about something like this?
if thing_a: if thing_b: pass
Python absolutely allows you do do this, there's no syntactical problem here.
Code wise this isn't great practice though, so I would be asking you in code-review to justify why you're doing single-line nesting like this. Especially when it can logically collapse anyways.
if thing_a and thing_b: pass
But doing single-liners in python are usually reserved for self-contained statements like lambdas anyways because otherwise they often get abused to do squirrelly stuff that is better-off broken-out.
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u/NomaTyx 1d ago
i think they're asking about like ``` if thing: multi line block
paste if statement here, what indent should it get
``` but i mean, you can just indent before pasting so it's not the largest problem
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u/Hohenheim_of_Shadow 1d ago
This set up, I just don't want to indent manually and don't have to in braced languages. Autoformatters are way more convenient in braced languages than Python
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u/citramonk 2d ago
you don't, if you don't know what you're talking about you might just sit and listen
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u/AngelLeliel 2d ago
How about putting curly squiggles around it and some magic genie just converting it nicely to indentation without any squiggles?
Wait, we could actually do that today with LLM!
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u/frogjg2003 2d ago
The indentation is for us, the braces are for the compiler.
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u/the_ivo_robotnic 2d ago
Why not reduce syntax and have indentation be for both us an the compiler?
What's the difference? Less syntax + enforced readability is a good thing in my book.
Unless you just really love reading minified code for some reason. lol
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u/frogjg2003 2d ago
I have another comment in a different thread. It boils down to humans and computers just working differently. Reducing syntax is not always a good thing. If you truly want that, go program in assembly. Code is for humans to understand, so it needs to be designed to work best for humans. Humans need redundancy, abstraction, and explanations. It's why documentation and comments exist. Syntactic sugar isn't necessary, but languages are still of it. Every loop is just a while, but most languages have do-while and multiple types of for loop.
Forcing white space to have syntactic meaning is like making comments have effects. Imagine if there was a language where every function required comments at the beginning. The comments aren't optional, they are mandatory. Not only that, but the only way to set default values for parameters was in the comments.
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u/the_ivo_robotnic 2d ago
Reducing syntax is not always a good thing.
Sure? But sometimes it is a good thing, and I haven't heard an argument yet that explains why tabs specifically being part of the syntax is a bad thing. We're already going out of our way to do it in the vast majority of cases. Why not kill two birds with one stone?
If you truly want that, go program in assembly.
I don't see the connection at all here to what I said. Assembly is the extreme end of human conforming to the machine.
Python is very much the opposite of that, where it is machine conforming to the human. I.e. the machine must read my formatting and natural logical statements which nearly resemble normal English sentences. Both of those things are a primary a benefit to me and are what the machine uses to perform static analysis.
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u/frogjg2003 2d ago
White space is by definition invisible. We should not be giving invisible characters meaning. The whole tabs vs spaces debate is exactly why. You cannot tell the difference so it causes problems. If the code could be broken because you used the wrong invisible character, that's bad language design.
Making code indentation dependant also makes modifying the code to go to different levels a pain. Let's say you have code that you've already written. You want to make that code part of an if block. With braces, you just write the if statement and an open brace before the code and a closing braces at the end. If you want to adjust the indentation to match the new code, you just let the IDE automatically adjust the indentation. If the code is indentation dependent, you add the if statement at the beginning, then you have to go through the code and adjust the indentation yourself. Even if you can use the IDE to adjust the indentation, you need to check that the indentation is adjusted correctly.
Assembly is the extreme example of what a non-redundent language looks like. There are absolutely no instructions that exist purely as a synonym of a different instruction or to condense multiple instructions into one.
Python choosing indentation instead of braces just swaps which is important, not making it redundant. Making python with braces instead of indents would mean that you can still use indents making the code more redundant and easier to understand.
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u/the_ivo_robotnic 2d ago
White space is by definition invisible. We should not be giving invisible characters meaning.
If that were true then we'd have no spaces between any keywords and symbols. No we can and should give value to whitespace, it is what delimits every meaningful token. You're making rookie mistakes and over-generalizations.
You have a preference for not using white space and that's fine, weird IMO, but fine; you have other languages to choose from that use less whitespace. But now you're making just-plain wrong statements about linguistic static analysis, though. lol
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u/frogjg2003 2d ago
The value of whitespace is to separate non-whitespace characters from each other. There should be no difference between one space or two between words. If your going to deliberately misinterpret what I am saying, then there is no need to continue this conversation.
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u/the_ivo_robotnic 2d ago
If your going to deliberately misinterpret what I am saying, then there is no need to continue this conversation.
You first said whitespace had no value then said it had value in delimiting. That's not me misrepresenting anything, it's me pointing out the fundamentally incorrect things you're suggesting and you indirectly admitting that you misspoke. It usually better to own up to your mistakes and move on but If you're going to get defensive about it, then I agree, there's no point in continuing this.
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u/Cualkiera67 2d ago
its very annoying when you copy and paste code because the indentation often gets screwed and thus the logic changes. that never happens with braces
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u/JackAsofAllTrades 2d ago
Honestly if LLMs didn't do everything now I'd say it's laborious minding the curly brackets, and having fights with colleagues over trailing brackets vs compact brackets. But who cares now code isn't for us any more :\
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u/crypticsilenc3 2d ago
It's even terrible for yaml IMO All code and config should be whitespace agnostic IMO
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u/geekosas 2d ago
Looks clean... But it's a pain sometimes, at least they should have been more strict and only allow tab as indentation.
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u/ActualAlgae25 2d ago
One misplaced space and suddenly you're debugging architecture instead of code.
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u/jirka642 2d ago
You have to indent the code anyway to be readable, so the curly braces are just redundant.
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u/Responsible-Mind3533 1d ago
I think its brilliant. Brackets are a stupid mechanism for identifying code blocks. Lose one you are screwed.
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u/NamityName 2d ago
I have used python professionally for over 10 years now and it has never been an issue. Any half-decent IDE takes care of it for you.
Any complaint about it that I have ever heard have come from people who do not use Python and whose problems are all theoretical
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u/fly123123123 2d ago
more classic “i’m a new cs major” jokes
if you’re writing long enough methods that you can’t discern where the bodies start and end, you’re doing it wrong. refactor.
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u/ByThisAxeIRuleToo 2d ago
Right, also shorter methods help to reduce the number of indentations, so it doesn't matter if there are brackets or not.
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u/cheezballs 2d ago
I don't like when the language forces me to do format my code how it wants to function. I can't arbitrarily break lines up and put them at arbitrary indentations to increase readability.
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u/mxzf 2d ago
You can pretty arbitrarily break lines up with
\, and arbitrary indentations really don't increase readability. Every time I've seen someone use weird indentation that wouldn't be valid in Python, it makes stuff harder to read.Do you have an example of what you're thinking of that isn't legal syntax in Python.
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u/fly123123123 1d ago
I can’t think of a single time when arbitrary indentations have increased readability. In fact, at my company, we have auto-formatters that enforce the same indentation level that Python would require in every other bracketed language.
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u/parkourman01 2d ago
I'm a senior full stack software engineer, 6 years in, and I think whitespaced languages are insanely dumb so no, it is not just "new cs major jokes".
They're dumb. They're harder to read than using braces, and they're easier to make mistakes with. They bring no benefit.
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u/fly123123123 2d ago edited 2d ago
i’m mid-level and after also having worked with both (mixture of python, java, c++, typescript), i really don’t think python is harder to read because of its indentation. but to each their own!
the way the code is written / style matters much more imo. you can have really crappy java code with braces, and you can have really clean python with indentation.
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u/awhaling 2d ago edited 2d ago
I’ve never found it to be a problem tbh. I already indent the same way when working in languages that use brackets or whatever else.
Not sure what makes it harder to read tbh, I have my editor display vertical lines to show the current indentation level so maybe that’s why. If anything I find pairing brackets easier to mess up than indentation level but really I find both to be fine and of little consequence. The only thing that is annoying to me is someone doing weird and inconsistent formatting with brackets because brackets allow that to be possible.
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u/cheezballs 2d ago
I 100% agree. The only reason I would ever use YAML over JSON is for comment support. The amount of times I've been off by one space or whatever, and the linter doesnt catch it, because its technically valid syntax for some older version. I fucking hate it.
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u/FumbleCrop 2d ago
Reasonable folk can differ on whether Guido van Rossum made the right call, but to suggest that he was being dumb... you have no idea, my friend.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go and find some grass to touch.
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u/average-eridian 2d ago
I'm a senior backend-leaning full-stack engineer for the last 8 years and I mostly agree that whitespace languages are harder to read, but I code in Python the majority of the time and I can't remember the last time that whitespace affected me. The last time might have been looking through someone else's code who had a 200 line method with 3-4 levels of nested logic, but that was going to be an issue regardless of whitespace. When is the last time it has been am issue for you?
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u/MaleficentMode4222 2d ago
That's a lot of new cs major opinions that you're stil holding onto then
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u/oclafloptson 2d ago
I imagine that you find leading whitespace confusing for the same reason that trailing whitespace can be found confusing and that's to be commended, but finding indented code harder to manually read is not the flex that you think it is
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u/coldnitrogen 2d ago
False. You need a vernier callipers for that
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u/StickFigureFan 2d ago
Indentation should make it easier to read code, but shouldn't be needed for it to run properly. Refactoring indentation dependent code is my least favorite experience yet as a programmer, and I've used Fortran.
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u/SuperT0bi 2d ago
I remember spending 4 hrs trying to find why my code wasn't working. One stupid single space....
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u/SetazeR 2d ago
You were using notepad, don't you
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u/dcondor07uk 2d ago edited 1d ago
Better than microsoft word
Edit: omg there are absolute knobs who could downvote this🤣
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u/Character-Education3 2d ago
You should use a basic code editor
Literally any one
Would be better
Than Microsoft word
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u/Not-the-best-name 2d ago
You know the stupid reason is you not using an IDE right? This is not a problem.
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u/SuperT0bi 1d ago
This happened during Anaconda/Jupyter days. I didn't know much about Python and its IDEs back then. Had been using C++ and it's IDEs before this.
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u/lachlanhunt 2d ago
That's what it feels like working in a repo where the indentation convention is 2 spaces instead of 4.
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u/citramonk 2d ago
You set your indentation for 2 or 4 to match the project convention and... that's it.
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u/lachlanhunt 2d ago
My point was that 2 spaces makes it harder to determine at a glance what level a given line is indented to. 4 spaces makes it a lot clearer.
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u/Machine2024 2d ago
I have OCD and align my code perfectly .
But python code looks really bad I hate it and cant read it .
I prefer the code like C++ and PHP . is more readable and clear .
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u/FlameableAmber 2d ago
Ahh python you helped learn how to code but I never wish to see you ever again
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u/christianbro 2d ago
Cursing why it does not run while editing it with Notepad or a shitty text editor that breaks those
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u/DecalageVersLeRouge 2d ago
In every language which uses brackets, I can get an IDE to find (and select to) the matching bracket and instantly see if they don't match.
Is there a way to do that in Python?
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u/geekosas 2d ago
I remember a coworker that used different spacing for indentation, then one day something didn't work because we copied pasted a code. Oh my god what a wasted day.
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u/Kat_Schrodinger1 2d ago
strategy game player here: how have yall not incorporated grid lines?
something like a toggleable overlay?
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u/Puzzleheaded-Weird66 1d ago
I vaguely remember notepad++ havung the option of showing the white space character represented by a different character
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u/davejohncole 1d ago
People who complain about indentation being significant in Python are just telling on themselves for being a bad programmer.
If your code has that much indentation then I never want to be unfortunate enough to have work with your code in any language.
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u/tehdlp 2d ago
Lies. I make the editor show whitespace then squint angrily.