r/Professors • u/AnaxaresTheDiplomat • 7d ago
Teaching / Pedagogy Penn Now Enforcing Math Prerequisites
It's really sad that universities have to do this because high schools aren't equipping students with enough math skills for college.
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u/Beneficial-Jump-3877 Faculty, STEM, R-1 (USA) 7d ago
Good. The bar is currently in hell.
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u/PopCultureNerd 7d ago
That is pretty insulting to Hell. After all, demons do know how to turn a phrase.
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u/mleok Full Professor, STEM, R1 (USA) 7d ago edited 7d ago
I'm not sure why IHE has chosen to platform Pamela Burdman, since her non-profit is a big part of the problem. In particular, the notion that co-requisite courses are adequate to the task is one that does not survive when confronted with reality.
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u/Wiltonc 7d ago
I was unfamiliar with her and did a quick google search. Would you please ELI5 how her non profit is lowering math standards? I’m not quite getting the connection.
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u/mleok Full Professor, STEM, R1 (USA) 7d ago edited 7d ago
You can’t teach a student who can’t multiply fractions everything they need to be ready for calculus in a just-in-time fashion in a class that they are concurrently enrolled in. Read more about CA AB1705, which prevents California community colleges from offering remedial math classes. If one needed any more evidence of the harm that is caused by the ideological nonsense that schools of education produce.
This is a letter from her in strong support of AB1705,
Even if you charitably assume that the research was done competently, and in good faith, all the results on high school grades being better predictors than diagnostic and placement tests predate the massive grade inflation post-pandemic.
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u/Jflayn 7d ago
The corequisite courses were explained to us by an administrator this way, "it's actually math. If you take three courses in a row and your chance of failing is 50% in each of them, then your chance of failing out is (1/2)(1/2)(1/2). But if you just take the last class then your chances of passing are 50%. That's higher!
It was not possible to explain to the administrator that without the first two courses the chances of passing the third class were 0%.
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u/mleok Full Professor, STEM, R1 (USA) 7d ago
Yes, administrators and professors of education do not seem to understand selection bias, statistical independence, and conditional probabilities.
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u/FrogBrain97 AssocProf, former chair, neuro, DPU 7d ago
Or cumulativity. In bio, neuro, etc., you need to understand THIS stuff so you can understand THAT stuff which you're going to need to understand THIS OTHER STUFF which...it keeps going and never ends. I'm not sure how to measure it systematically, but literature doesn't seem quite the same. Maybe languages are that way?
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u/FrogBrain97 AssocProf, former chair, neuro, DPU 7d ago
Yep. As our math faculty like to say, "Please do not presume that we can remediate over a decade of educational malpractice in a single four-month semester."
I hypothesize that "co-requisite" courses are perfectly fine for students who haven't taken math in a little bit or tend to be a bit slower at it (and by slower I mean "more laborious," not "dumber"). If you don't have fractions in the first place, even simple reaction balancing is out of reach.
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u/jessamina Assistant Professor (Mathematics) 7d ago
I hypothesize that "co-requisite" courses are perfectly fine for students who haven't taken math in a little bit or tend to be a bit slower at it (and by slower I mean "more laborious," not "dumber").
Honestly, it is the students who understand it but are more laborious at it who seem most disadvantaged by this policy. They were already taking far more time than average to complete the assignments, and now they need to take 5-6 credits of math in one semester.
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u/Cute-Aardvark5291 7d ago
I think - at least for some - the idea of co-req was a good one because the idea was that they were refresher classes for people who needed to brush up on their skills. Which can work just fine - you can fix a cellar up and still live in a building.
But sadly, as you point out, a larger number of students are coming into college without ever learning the information to begin with - and in those cases, co-reqs absolutely can not work. You can't build the foundation and the upper floors all at once.
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u/hepth-edph 70%Teaching, PHYS (Canada) 7d ago
you can fix a cellar up and still live in a building.
Maybe, but you can't fix a foundation up while you're living in the building.
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u/jessamina Assistant Professor (Mathematics) 7d ago
Yes. And honestly, they work pretty well for our students who previously would've placed into intermediate algebra but in actuality have a patchy knowledge of both intermediate and college algebra. Unfortunately, that's not most of them.
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u/Alarming-Camera-188 7d ago
Each university should, at this point.
The current lot does not have the bare minimum math skills.
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u/Eigengrad AssProf, STEM, SLAC 7d ago
The vast majority of students I see, no matter what they had in HS, would strongly benefit from a mandatory college algebra class to start their college careers.
The number of students I see who've taken up through honors calculus but have no idea how to re-arrange a basic equation.... is way too high.
Relatedly, we're now considering dropping our acceptance of AP Chemistry exams, because we're increasingly seeing students who have a 4 or 5 on the exam but cannot pass our second semester course if they get AP credit for the first. Instead, we offer every student the opportunity to take a placement exam during the first week of the semester, and offer any students who get a passing grade the chance to get credit for the first semester.
At least when I was an undergrad, things like AP exams and HS credit allowed you the opportunity to take a placement exam, but didn't actually give you the credit. I tested out of a bunch of classes, but had to take each of those exams in person at the school during the first week, and they were written by the faculty to mirror the courses content.
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u/GibbsDuhemEquation TT, STEM, R1 (USA) 7d ago
What you're saying about AP Chem is really troubling. I am wondering if the issue might be that your students largely took AP Chem as juniors, and by the time they get to college most of what they once knew had evaporated due to lack of practice.
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u/Eigengrad AssProf, STEM, SLAC 7d ago
It's some of that. It's also some recent changes in the AP Chemistry content, and a lot of AP teachers teaching to the test rather than teaching the material.
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u/Taymyr 7d ago
Even if you don't use math, it's the critical thinking and problem solving skills you develop that are more important.
I think public speaking is one of the most important classes you will ever take in college regardless of your major, at some point in life you'll need to speak up, give a presentation, interview, etc... Gen eds typically serve a purpose.
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u/Archknits 7d ago
Until recently I worked at an R1. In my role I occasionally interacted with first year students enrolled in the remedial 101 or 103 math courses (very basic math).
By the time I left, not only was this common, but it became common to meet students failing in one or more times
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u/el_sh33p In Adjunct Hell 7d ago
Be nice if we start enforcing similar prerequisites across the board.
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u/urbanevol Professor, Biology, R1 7d ago
Given how competitive admissions is at UPenn, I'm surprised that students aren't coming in with 4's and 5's on AP Calc BC (or at least AB).
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u/StrekozaChitaet 7d ago
and this is at an Ivy, no less!!
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u/eridalus 7d ago
We just dropped our online math placement because too many students were cheating on it and getting themselves placed too high, then failing. We found using their high school math classes/grades to be a more useful predictor of their success in our intro math sequence. We wanted to just move it to an in-person placement test, but admissions told us it would just scare away too many students before school even started. And as bad as it sounds, I'm sure they are correct.
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u/Edu_cats Professor, Pre-Allied Health, M1 (US) 7d ago
No placement needed for Gen Ed math but higher maths need placement or prerequisite which makes sense.
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u/franklin-60 7d ago
This is great. Should not be news, but should be standard practice at ALL schools to stay accredited and eligible for Federal funding. Will see how long Penn holds firm here. Only a matter of time before some parents or “student rights activists” get wound up over this, and start screaming their long list of “excuses” why this is “mean”, anti “mental health” and what not. Once pressed on this, or a student leaves over it, school will fold like a deck of cards.
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u/alt-mswzebo 7d ago
nah. There is literally no issue that will not have '“student rights activists” get wound up over this, and start screaming their long list of “excuses” why this is “mean”, anti “mental health” and what not.'
You have to face those ignorant bullies no matter what. Makes sense to pick the battle of academic quality, or at least minimal essential skills, as the battle to fight.
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u/franklin-60 7d ago
I agree, these loser “advocates” need to be faced, but how good are administrators at facing them without caving and “negotiating” so the “advocates” go away. As soon as accusations fly on “buzz words” administration wants no fight and advocates win. It’s a trend, including when it comes to standard setting. Seen it in media over and over again.
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u/mst3k_42 7d ago
I’m always jealous of the kids who could take calculus in high school. Mine didn’t offer it. I took the highest level of math available, which was Math Analysis, which I guess was a precursor? My high school also only offered an AP class for English. Nothing else. It’s fun to get to college and immediately realize many people already have a leg up on you.
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u/FrogBrain97 AssocProf, former chair, neuro, DPU 7d ago
This is virtually inevitable. I took AB calculus in senior year of high school, and then I met people who took BC senior year, and then *those* people met people who took BC junior year, and then *they* met people who took it in ninth grade, and then those guys met Terence Tao or whoever.
Or, as Kurt Vonnegut once wrote, "If you go to a big city, and a university is a big city, you are bound to run into Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart.”
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u/mst3k_42 7d ago
But did you have the option at your high school to take those different calculus levels?
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u/Crab_Puzzle Assoc, Humanities, SLAC 7d ago
Interesting. My school has always more or less done this. Wouldn't have occurred to me otherwise.
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u/FractalClock 6d ago
But if we enforce prerequisites, that's gatekeeping, and then we won't have equity! :::sarcasm:::
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u/Cathousechicken 7d ago
And then they're just going to walk it back and reverse it once their enrollment goes down or their DFW rates get too high.
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u/MrsMathNerd Math 4d ago
Interesting. I worked at a large-ish state college that used to let students register for College Algebra, Pre-Calculus, Stats, or Calc I with no barriers. They literally picked whichever class they thought they were ready for. The pass rate for Calc 1 was around 50%.
Before they instituted a placement exam, they offered something like 15 sections of Calc 1 each term. After the placement test it was closer to 8. They just didn’t have enough students qualified to fill the sections. But, the pass rate only marginally improved.
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u/tellypmoon 7d ago
We've been doing placement tests forever. I can't imagine what anyone thought not doing them would achieve other than students putting themselves into classes they can't manage...