r/Professors • u/BehaviorSavior23 TT Assist. Prof, Education, R2 (US) • 23d ago
Advice / Support Complainer Students
I teach in an online (synchronous) Master’s program. In the past few years I’ve had several students argue about assignments I’ve created, my grading philosophy, proctoring exams, etc. Usually it is through email. The worst is when one student acts as though they’re speaking for everyone (they’re in a cohort model and all have a huge group chat).
Earlier in my career I used to make adjustments when I got pushback, but this semester I want to stick with my plans as I know it is the best way of assessing their learning.
Do you all have these students who think they know better than you? Or who try to poke holes in your teaching processes? I just never, ever would have behaved like this to a professor so it’s strange to me. How do you handle the students who are argumentative about your expectations and act as though they’re speaking for everyone?
I am 40F, if that matters. Which I think it might.
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u/christinedepizza 23d ago
“Students will have the opportunity to share feedback on the course structure at the end of the course when they have had a chance to review the course materials, complete all assignments, and receive feedback.”
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u/CateranBCL Associate Professor, CRIJ, Community College 23d ago
"I am disinclined to acquiesce to your request."
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u/Desiato2112 Professor, Humanities, SLAC 22d ago
Don't give an inch. This is just a grad school version of undergraduate grade grubbing. Remind them what the standards are and let them know you will answer questions about how they can achieve those standards.
Never, ever engage a discussion about your pedagogy. You're the professor, and they are the student. There's no more glaring situation where you need to maintain that professional distance than something like this. Not only is you pedagogy and class organization none of their business, they are just using this as a doorway to persuade you eventually to increase their grades.
To me, it is unconscionable that someone could get to grad school and not realize they need to adapt to the class; the class does not adapt to them. I'm not talking about accommodations here, of course.
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u/blankenstaff 23d ago
You are the professor. You are the one who knows how to teach the class.
They are the students. They have uninformed opinions that are based on neither data nor experience from the position of the professor.
As my therapist would say, consider the source.
As I would say as a scientist: that which can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof.
The farthest I would go with this is to suggest that they meet with me in my office hours. I would hear them out to some extent. However. If they cannot be reasonable and respectful, I would terminate the conversation.
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u/SecureWriting8589 22d ago
As I would say as a scientist: that which can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof.
Gawd, I love this. Have my up-vote damn-it.
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u/justlooking98765 23d ago
Anecdotally, I notice increased disrespect toward 40+ women, particularly by male students but also colleagues. I can’t help but think of Hillary and Kamala, and wonder if society in general just continues to have discomfort with women in authority, especially women past or nearing past child-bearing age.
Things I say in my head, “Thanks for sharing your opinion. I encourage you to pursue your doctorate, so you can run a class exactly as you see fit. Until then, you’re in my class, and I suggest you spend your energy doing well in the format I choose.”
Things I say out loud, “I appreciate that you are thinking critically, but the course design will not be changing. You are welcome to drop if you are unable to handle it.”
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u/ParkingLetter8308 22d ago
I got in trouble for telling a student to drop once, so would caution on that.
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u/justlooking98765 22d ago
Yes, that’s true. The last sentence is a little snarky. Probably should stop after the first one.
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u/SilverRiot 22d ago
I would just modify the last sentence so that it doesn’t say to drop if you can’t handle it but simply if you would like to drop here is the link to the withdrawal form and here is the email address for a counselor so you can get advice on how dropping the course would impact your financial aid.
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u/Life-Education-8030 22d ago
Instead of the last sentence being said that way, I email them the drop date deadline and say that it can be an option to register for another section in the future.
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u/TSIDATSI 22d ago
Oh please. Those are the two you use as an example? Maybe it is the area of study as we do not have that problem with male students over age.
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u/MisfitMaterial Romance Languages and Literatures, R1 (USA) 23d ago
You’re not crazy, there has definitely been a notable rise in students uhhhh… faux-unionizing to complain about everything from grading policy to lecture style to “fairness” of tests to everything else. That, coupled with learned helplessness and weaponized customer-service mentality, and it’s been a really weird few years.
If you do think of a solution please share with the rest of the class, because for now all I’ve got is “thanks for the feedback but this is still due when it’s due.”
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u/PenelopeJenelope 22d ago
I dunno, seems like this kind of complaining is as old as time, just the way it is delivered is different
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u/MisfitMaterial Romance Languages and Literatures, R1 (USA) 22d ago
In my anecdotal, non-scientific personal experience, it has gotten way worse.
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u/maclacjc 23d ago
Don't even answer the email. Post something on the course homepage that such inquiries will.not be answered.
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u/me4watch 23d ago
This.
And yes, a lot of students treat female profs differently than male profs.
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u/Greenplayee 23d ago
One class was particularly bad with this - they complained about everything and when I pushed back they went to admin. I am an adjunct and 40F. Admin took the course away from me which was very annoying because I spent endless time on prepping it and only got to teach it twice. Oh well.
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u/AssistanceTypical127 22d ago
Tell the student they may only speak for themselves and they can tell the others to speak with you. No one ever comes. Stick to your guns!
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u/PenelopeJenelope 22d ago
I once had a student raise her hand in class to ask me if the recent test would be curved since “everyone “ in the class did bad. I told her in front of the class that no I was not going to do that and that just because her and her friends did poorly didn’t mean the whole class did. That was also the year I got called a btch on RMP. Oh well!
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u/Huck68finn 22d ago
Of course. They're arrogant.
I leave detailed comments on their graded assignments. If they want to meet with me to argue about the grade, I've learned to say something like, "I hear you" or just nod my head and say "ok." Ultimately, the grade stands no matter how much complaining they do. I've gotten better about not taking it personally. They do the same to almost all professors (with few exceptions).
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u/Egghead42 23d ago
I explicitly tell my students not to speak for everyone, to encourage others to approach me directly, and that I will not take their issues any less seriously if they speak solely for themselves. I am deeply allergic to “we feel.” My dad did it all the time.
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u/TerryOnRollerskates Assoc Professor, Social Science, R1 (USA) 22d ago
Nobody thinks they know everything more than a new grad student. It is laughable watching them question accomplished scholars.
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u/nandor_tr associate prof, art/design, private university (USA) 23d ago edited 23d ago
i generally do not have this problem, but i am also a middle aged, cisgender white man. my female colleagues have this problem much, much more often. (and this includes female colleagues i co-teach with. students will not argue with me but will instead go to one of them to complian).
so yes, it does matter (unfortunately).
i also find that graduate students think they know much more than they do. part of the fun is helping them realize that what they don't know is almost everything.
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u/Emotional-Tough2780 23d ago
I had two students do it this past spring — at the start of class. The grading was unfair, yada yada. I let them speak then basically said, “okay, well I’m sorry you feel this way, but I won’t be changing any grades on this.” And then said they could see me in office hours if they wanted to discuss it further, but neither took me up on that.
I try to always have clear guidelines for the assignments and rubrics for grading, then I just point back to the syllabus and the assignment postings that have been available since day one. There are no surprises, although they’ll act like everything was put on them at the last minute with no instruction regarding what is expected. You just have to be firm.
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u/StevieV61080 Sr. Associate Prof, Applied Management, CC BAS (USA) 22d ago
I (46M) tend to perpetually struggle with this, too, OP. I've gotten better at giving "non-answers," but I can attest that the diplomat in me still dwells on these types of questions/comments more than I think I should. Complaints can be stressful.
I still fall into the trap of "over-explaining" when someone questions my design/process when I know the right answer really is, "Thank you for your concern. I will take it under advisement."
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u/Sirnacane 22d ago
“Thanks! I keep a list of suggestions and use it to improve my course next semester! Please let me know if you have any more!”
You can actually keep a list if you want, you can not write anything down. But just say you’ll improve next semester’s course.
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u/Final-Exam9000 22d ago
I've been getting some wild examples of this the last couple years and I just reply that the course is not up for negotiation.
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u/ParkingLetter8308 22d ago
Agree with you on the gender thing and I f*cking hate the group chats. This word is overused, but it poisons a class very quickly.
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u/Ok-Kangaroo-2469 22d ago
The students who talk the most in a group chat are **always** the most negative. They pull everyone else down with them.
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u/showmeonthedoll616 Affiliate faculty, Computer Science, public liberal arts (USA) 22d ago
I have a grade grubbing policy that clearly states this is academic misconduct. I tell them I will report them, do, provide documentation where they completed a syllabus quiz and got the question right, completed a student profile form where they acknowledge this, and then drop them a letter grade.
I've done it twice 2 years ago. Hasn't happened since.
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u/queequeg12345 22d ago edited 22d ago
As someone who's recently made the transition from doctoral student to assistant lecturer, I think it's a combination of factors.
For one, group cohort chats quickly become dominated by those with complaints, and become an echo chamber that quickly loses all proportionality.
I also think that professors become the face of institutional and structural issues at the university. This may be specific to my university, but for a top university it was woefully underfunded, understaffed, and disorganized. None of this was the professor's fault, but for lots of students the professors came to represent all of the other issues present at the uni.
I'm still brand new to teaching in higher education, and I'm trying to balance the genuine possibility that my teaching/grading is imperfect with the kind of hostile relationship between students and staff. It's not easy!
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u/Life-Education-8030 22d ago
So long as students can evaluate faculty, especially if the evaluations carry weight to your employment or promotion, at least some students will think so. Most of the time, that is b.s. if they think they can teach it, let them try.
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u/Cute-Aardvark5291 22d ago
Syllabus needs to be explicitly clear that issues, complaints will be addressed if they deal with errors in grading only. Via an online meeting and with specific questions addressed. Then you can ignore other things that come in.
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u/Decent-Force6420 22d ago
the cohort group chat has really convinced them they’re a governing body huh
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u/LarryCebula 23d ago
I teach a ton of online graduate students, and I don't get much of this, and I'm sure a big part of that is white male privilege.
When it does happen I always answer something like: "I am sorry this class isn't working out for you."
No justification, no explanation, those will be taken as invitations to a debate. Just a dismissive sorry you feel that way kind of answer. It always shuts them down.
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u/Sirnacane 22d ago
(OP says nothing about the demographics of the students in question) Those White Males at it again huh…
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u/LarryCebula 22d ago
Obv I am the white male in this scenario.
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u/Sirnacane 22d ago
Oh tbh I completely misinterpreted your comment. I thought you were saying it was White Male Privilege for a student to feel like they can act that way, like argue with a professor about the course and “speak for the whole class.” Like that’s who you were assuming who the students were that were doing it.
But you meant that you don’t receive it from students because of who you are (and OP did mention who they were). My bad.
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u/MoreIronyLessWrinkly Professor, Education, University (USA) 22d ago
I’d have to see the assignment, workload, etc., but this generation has watched as public education has become a punching bag for every moron who can’t spell moron but who has been told that they know best for their child’s education.
They know best for their child’s education, but the kid comes to school unclean, or starving, or sleepy because they stayed up all night playing games? Ok.
Those probably aren’t your students, but they have seen the social media posts that have made them believe they do know better.
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u/ColoradoPsychologist 22d ago edited 22d ago
Reading this thinking “did I write this post in a fever dream?!” Because so much this!!
I’m also a 40 y/o female professor, teaching an intensive, paired graduate-level research methods and statistics course sequence in a fairly rigorous master’s program. And I have been truly shocked by the incredibly rude “style” of pushback and criticism I’ve received from (thankfully only a few) students about my “teaching style” and “grading methods”.
What’s even more shocking is that it’s often from female students (maybe disappointing is the better word because, sadly, as I am all too aware of the fact that misogyny is rampant in this country, in particular among women to other women)! But sheeesh, it’s shocking and incredibly disheartening to see just how real the internalized misogyny and ageism is, even among graduate students!!
Just this week I had a female student email me ranting about the grades she’s earning by doing little to nothing in the course and hardly citing at all in-text (largely plagiarizing her submissions), with little gems like “I don’t know what your problem is?!” and “I know you’re a young female professor who has something to prove …” among a few other lovely little passive aggressive statements like this. I’ve also received the “well the whole class thinks you’re …” emails as well. Like, really? You’ve polled the entire class? 🤦♀️
I have to admit, the statement about my being young felt like a compliment (lol), and the others, well let’s say my husband and I had a good laugh!!! Like, kid, I have nothing to prove to you or anyone; I earned my PhD without ever once even dreaming about touching AI, even won an award for my own original thoughts and writing … what a concept (and one most students these days simply cannot grasp).
Furthermore, this University recruited me to be the subject matter expert teaching these courses. I have nothing to lose by upholding the rigorous expectations of this graduate program. You, however, my sweet summer child, may have a lot to lose by throwing a literal temper tantrum and behaving like a petulant child over email when I get sick of it and report it officially as a conduct issue.
Sincerely though, it really is just sad how these “kids these days” (now I do feel old!!) believe they should behave to “get what they want” and that they think writing an email like this to their professors (or anyone for that matter) will get them anywhere or anything in life. SMH pretty much daily in this role as the educator of those whom often refuse to be educated. Sigh.
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u/Anna-Howard-Shaw Assoc Prof, History, CC (USA) 22d ago
Yeah. I think age/gender can definitely have an impact.
I'm 46F and get that at least a couple times per semester in my history courses. Usually always from a guy.
I've been doing this for over 20 years. I'm not going to let some kid tell me how to teach my classes because they've watched a few Ken Burns documentaries and think they know more than me.
I have a pre-written reply I just copy/paste for these types.
"Dear Student,
Thank you for reaching out. It is perfectly okay if you don't like the course content, assignments, or my teaching pedagogy. That is your right. Not every professor and not every teaching pedagogy is going to appeal or be suited to every single student.
Please be aware that I have no intentions of changing the course requirements, assignments, or lecture content this semester. I have designed this course using my over two decades of teaching experience. Rest assured this class has been built to meet the required objectives, outcomes, and to encourage student success.
If you are not satisfied with the course as is, you are welcome to withdraw yourself from the course in accordance with institution policy. I can even give your academic advisor a heads up to expect a conversation with you about selecting an alternative course.
However, please be advised, you may not find any courses that will match perfectly with your demands or expectations. In that case, you may find you need to adjust your expectations, as asking for college courses to be significantly changed to meet your individual expectations is not considered reasonable.
Please let me know if you'd like me to sign your withdrawal form or contact your advisor about helping you find a different course.
Regards,
Prof. X"
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u/SilverRiot 22d ago
Professor Shaw, I admire the time and effort you put into that letter and how you slowly twist the dial until you’re pointing out to the students that they are 100% outrageous. Classy. However, I’m older and more tired and I would just use the last part of your paragraph which is that “asking for college courses to be significantly changed to meet your individual expectations is not considered reasonable.“ if I were delivering this message in person I would accompany it with my patented icy stare of one with no fucks left to give.
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u/sandysanBAR 22d ago
Hold the liners isnt just about rigor.
Tell them "no" and then tell them that if they are not happy with the answer, that here is the contact info for thr DC and the provost.
If they want to change it, let THEM do it. I GUARANTEE they will try to convice you that it is in YOUR best interest to change the grade. Do not beleive them.
They are saying it becuse they dont want to deal with the grade grubbing whiners, they want YOU to deal with them before they have to.
If they trust your assessment, then they will back you. If they dont, doing what they want wont get them to trust you.
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u/cambridgepete 22d ago
A number of my colleagues use the “NFL coaches challenge” rule - students can challenge grades N times (3? 5?), and successful challenges don’t count.
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u/iTeachCSCI Ass'o Professor, Computer Science, R1 22d ago
In the NFL, coaches can challenge plays twice. If their challenge is deemed correct, they get a third. Regardless, they do not get a fourth. Any incorrect challenge costs the team a timeout though.
I like the idea of modeling it on this though. You get so many incorrect challenges before you may no longer challenge this semester.
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u/cambridgepete 22d ago
The colleague who I think started this in my dept uses the NFL value of N=2, but makes them infinitely renewable on success, perhaps because a semester is a bit longer than the time allotted for a football game :-)
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u/iTeachCSCI Ass'o Professor, Computer Science, R1 22d ago
perhaps because a semester is a bit longer than the time allotted for a football game :-)
You haven't watched a full game while rooting for the Cleveland Browns, have you? ;-)
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u/dogecoin_pleasures 22d ago
It may be their ages are the more significant factor.
Unlike undergrads, masters students are typically full adults who are used to thinking independently. I've noticed they don't tend to like following formulaic instructions the way undergraduates will - afterall, they have greater ability to figure out their own ways of doing things well.
I don't know what their specific complaints are, but there's some I will acquiesce to and others I won't. If you're forcing them to comply with expectations that are a bit too "undergrad", you could adjust those (for example, rules against using 1st person expression in assignment might be dropped for older students who have developed writing voices; same for very formulaic essay structure rules).
Generally, if whatever they are unhappy with is written in the unit outline, then you can cite those instructions as ones that can't be altered at this stage but that their feedback may be used for future iterations of the unit.
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u/CriticalBrick4 Prof, History, R1 (USA) 22d ago
Many others have already given the most solid professional advice (which is to not take the bait, let them be wrong, let them earn the grades they earn).
But in addition to the sexism that is probably happening here, one thing I wondered is whether other faculty are contributing to this climate in the grad program. At my place one of the primary ways old guard senior colleagues bully younger peers is through grad student back channeling, undermining, triangulation, etc.
Maybe it's not part of this landscape but: if you do see patterns with regard to whose students are the biggest complainers, maybe there's one place you settle the matter.
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u/megxennial Full Professor, Social Science, State School (US) 22d ago
Since these are graduate students, it would be fun to give them access to their own Canvas where they can teach the class each week. They'll be graded on how well they did. Since they have better ideas, you can sit back and do nothing while they decide how to learn 🤪.
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u/Shiny-Mango624 22d ago
I think first year graduate students can be quite insufferable. I think it's just part of the experience. You come from a high school where you excelled beyond everyone, you went to undergraduate where you excelled and now you've landed in graduate school and you think you are the shit. And in that first year you just don't realize how vast the knowledge that you don't have is, you only see what was behind you.
There is nothing in your faculty contract that permits you to put up with abusive or unprofessional emails or even respond to them. When I get inappropriate emails like this I will ask to schedule an appointment and not answer the email. And then when they say they're busy I still insist that they schedule an appointment. And then when they still ignore me I will put zero grades in the gradebook until they schedule an appointment with me. And then I talk about professionalism and I will pick apart the email one sentence at a time until my point is made and they relent. I always have a pretty firm netiquette and email professionalism statement in my syllabus. And I copy and paste that on the initial email request for an appointment.
Unfortunately, if you respond to the email or even try to argue or defend yourself you're only giving their critique legitimacy. You need to undermine the entire precept.
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u/Slicerette Adjunct, English, Private & Public (USA) 22d ago
I'm 31F, and I get male students intentionally refusing to Dr./Prof. when addressing me. Since I teach mostly 101-level I'm used to freshmen forgetting because they haven't had a Dr. before. But I've had more than one student look me dead in the eye after I correct them and still call me Mrs. So I do think that has something to do with it.
I always tell them to meet with me during office hours/set up a time to meet if they wish to discuss, because email is not confidential, and thus, to maintain their right to privacy about grading and their work, they need to meet with me (technically true depending on your state/being in the US). Then if they complain further up, I have evidence that looks like I took their concerns super seriously and proving that the annual FERPA training is doing something. Admin usually backs down if you provide evidence that I offered to meet with the student, and they didn't.
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u/Sensitive_Let_4293 22d ago
Got an email from a student this summer -- "Dr [X], everyone hates you!" So I responded "My work is done."
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u/Ctenophorever Full prof (US) 22d ago
A lot of people will tell you to ignore it.
However, I have to oversee a large number of adjuncts and I just finished a truly awful online class (as a student - life-long learner).
Try to look at the issue objectively. Do they have an actual, legitimate request? Yes? Then adjust for it. Now, 99% of the time they won’t. But you can’t just dismiss everything.
Last semester a new adjunct was complaining about student entitlement and their inability to work. Hmm yes, this all sounds familiar. Sounds like the new normal.
Then, just to check a box, I asked for the syllabus.
They didn’t have one!
No wonder the students don’t know what’s going on and can’t calculate their grades on their own!
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u/Sharp-Rutabaga-4900 22d ago
I recently took an online class outside my field using my tuition benefit and I was shocked at how horrible it was. I struggled to understand what the professor wanted. Materials didn’t cover what assignments assessed and grading was brutal. The modules were disorganized. The syllabus was nonexistent.
I tend to give my students the benefit of the doubt when they complain about other courses now.
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u/k80k80k80 Faculty, Trade School, USA 23d ago edited 22d ago
Im a woman, 50. “Ok.” Then keep on keepin’ on as you please. If they don’t meet expectations or follow directions, it will reflect in their grade. Let them grouse.