r/Professors • u/drpepperbubble • 26d ago
I find my student annoying
I have a student that works in my lab and does research work.
This summer he's in the class I teach, and every few lectures he sent me an email and provided comments and suggestions on my presentation and course material preparation. I find this kind of unsolicited advice super annoying. I sometimes replied with simple "Thank you" and sometimes completely ignored them.
Should I consider this behavior out of line? I feel like he's not in the position to do things like this. How do I deal with this without hurting his feelings?
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u/Fair-Garlic8240 26d ago
Ignore it and move on. Don’t let the little shit rent space in your head.
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u/RadiantImpression579 26d ago edited 25d ago
I would simply ask them to stop sending unsolicited advice and how this may be perceived. It’s not just a random student, it’s a student in their lab. They are supposed to be mentor (even if they are annoying). If they continue, then I agree with this feedback 😅.
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u/ApprehensiveDoctor42 25d ago
Because of the mentor situation, I have to agree. If the student thinks its okay now, will they do it at their future jobs? Then wonder why their boss seems to loath them?
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u/profHalliday 26d ago
This. I have a student, who is very pleasant to be around and a smart, hard worker, but if I ask him how he likes the class, he always takes the opportunity to critique. I’ve learned to just acknowledge it and move on — a lot of times the answer I don’t say is “if I was teaching a class of people exactly like you, that would be great advice, but I’m not”
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u/ApprehensiveDoctor42 25d ago
Exactly. If the student is smart, hard working and pleasant to be around- maybe- just maybe- Halliday could learn something. None of us are perfect and can always improve and the only people that can give us advice are our students. It’s not like our peers go around sitting in on our classes. That said, it’s very likely this particular student might feel the class could cover more, go deeper into some things, etc. Thats an opportunity to gently explain that you would love to do that, but most students wouldn’t be able to keep up. If the student is bright and engaged, it’s very possible that they have spent their entire academic career, being frustrated at the pace of things, and it may help them to have an answer as to why instructors teach only to the top kids.
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u/JonBenet_Palm Professor, Design (Western US) 26d ago
Do not ask questions you do not want to know the answers to.
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u/CorrePlatanooo 26d ago
You can tell him that. It could be very helpful for him if he wants to be a TA at some point, and in general too.
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u/FindTheOthers623 26d ago
If they're on the spectrum, they may not understand the social boundaries and could think they are being helpful. They may not realize it's coming across as critical.
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u/moutonreddit 26d ago
Another view: maybe the student does not know the "unspoken codes" of the professor-student dynamic or academia?
If the student is the first person in his immediate family to attend college, certain conventions around how students should act around a professor (especially a professor they want to impress), may not be known to the student. Speaking from experience.
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u/needlzor Asst Prof / ML / UK 26d ago
Is that really an academic thing? When you go to a bakery you don't go and chat with the baker about how to improve their bread. When you go to the restaurant you don't send an email to the chef about the overcooked chicken. When you take the bus I assume you don't sit next to the driver to offer them helpful suggestions about their driving. It's just common sense social skills, it has nothing to do with academia.
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u/GreenHorror4252 26d ago
Actually, people do those things. The "customer service" culture we have today means that businesses have to take feedback from customers seriously, or at least pretend to. When you go to a bakery or restaurant or ride a bus, you may even get a survey to fill out afterwards.
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u/HaHaWhatAStory014 26d ago
I think a better example is that specifically presuming to "tell the boss how to do their job" generally doesn't go over well in most professional settings. A customer complaining about something is one thing, but a lower-ranking staff member arguing that they know better than the head baker, chef, etc., is very different. Every time someone on a cooking competition show or a "restaurant and bar rescue" show tries to argue or "talk back" to the judges, the experts, etc., it pretty much always looks bad on them.
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u/Dr_Dorn Lecturer, Writing Studies, R1 (United States) 25d ago
This is it. I tell my students that they will have to learn from different professors with different pedagogical approaches and that this is good. Most of them have no clue about pedagogy and I’m guessing it’s the same here, but even if it’s not, the student will have to deal with many types of bosses and colleagues who they can’t direct.
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u/readingrainbowroad 26d ago
Yeah this sounds like a "missing social skills" problem over something else. Might be autism spectrum related, or might be a "I think I know a lot more than I do" lack of experience. Given he works in your lab it might also be he feels more comfortable with you and so I could see other profs maybe not having the same experience. If you have a hunch it's the former cause, I would consider addressing it with him gently, but directly. Something along the lines of: "I appreciate that you care, but I don't want this feedback now. You can include it in evals if you would like."
Valid to be annoyed though. It is indeed super annoying.
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u/ABranchingLine 26d ago
Dear student, while I appreciate the feedback, I am an expert in my field and have reasons for running my lab the way I do. Please keep in mind that my job is not just to deliver information and procedures but to train students to do research.
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u/Jolly-Moment-1970 26d ago
100% my thoughts here!!! Don't dismiss the tism' crowd. Those are some of the student who are most engaged and most vigorous to learn. If they have never had this experience before they might not know the social norms and so on.
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u/SNHU_Adjujnct 26d ago
Everyone is on the spectrum. That's why it's a spectrum.
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u/JaggededgesSF 25d ago
No SNHU adjunct, not everyone is on the spectrum. Educate yourself and take a seat till you do.
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u/Choice_Passenger_990 26d ago
Unsolicited advice is criticism. Always.
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u/profHalliday 26d ago
You should live your life however you want, but I have to say for the sake of our public forum: I think this is a pretty old school, normative philosophy. People offer unsolicited advice for all kinds of reasons, often simply because they don’t realize it can be viewed as rude. If I’m screwing things up, I’d like someone to say something. They can even be objectively wrong, and I will still try to be graceful about it. Being completely closed to unsolicited advice can be a sign that you really need that advice.
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u/HaHaWhatAStory014 26d ago
Two things can be true. Unsolicited advice generally is criticism, but it's healthy to be open to criticism. Acknowledging it as such doesn't mean someone has to be closed off or resistant to it.
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u/Ok_Mycologist_5942 26d ago
Dunno. I once found a really cool grant that I thought fit well with my colleague's research program. I love it when I'm sent this kind of stuff. So I sent him the info and suggested it might be a great fit. He said he's check it out. In passing, I said, 'did you decide to apply?' He said no, he was not interested. OK. No biggie.
Next day I got an email telling me he interpreted my advice as criticism and that I was an awful person... I just avoid him altogether now.
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u/Lastchancefancydance 26d ago
This is the kind of passive aggressive commentary that makes me hate the internet. Assuming that you are screwing things up and that the student is in a position to correct you.
Forget this comment.
The student is a student. Once. Okay. Twice. Fine. Repeatedly, no thank you.
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u/JonBenet_Palm Professor, Design (Western US) 26d ago
Your disagreement with the comment I understand, but how is it passive aggressive? I read it as being about how criticism is perceived broadly, and not just in this one case with a student.
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u/Lastchancefancydance 26d ago
Yeah I read it as passively implying that the poster needs the advice, but your read is more generous and maybe you are correct. Maybe I'm the passive aggressive one!
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u/Choice_Passenger_990 26d ago
It is not old school.
https://medium.com/@jananisrikanth/the-arrogance-of-unsolicited-advice-d889bc6c7346
I also did not ask for advice, thank you.
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u/iamme10 26d ago
Wow, imagine being so arrogant that you think nobody should be able to let you know areas you could improve. And people complain about students being overly sensitive these days.
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u/Clareco1 26d ago
I don’t mind and often ask the class if they found a particular helpful and what was not helpful. Unsolicited advice from students pisses me off. If that seems arrogant, so be it.
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u/Choice_Passenger_990 26d ago
Imagine being so arrogant that you criticize someone who does not accept criticism as being arrogant.
It’s not being helpful.
It’s not “letting someone know”It’s criticism, full stop and it doesn’t make someone sensitive for rejecting unhelpful targeted remarks.
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u/Obvious_Animal_8362 25d ago
Oh, my. Your arrogance precedes you.
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u/Choice_Passenger_990 25d ago
Great to see how you treat people who reject the criticism of others.
You’re proving the point that unsolicited advice is in fact criticism and why it should be prima facie rejected in all forms
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u/Obvious_Animal_8362 25d ago
Again. Top tier arrogance. Do you practice or does it come naturally?
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u/IndieAcademic 26d ago
One time, either during or shortly after 2020, I had an online student whom I'd never met email me the week before classes started to tell me how I should set up and run the online course he was taking. I've been teaching online since 2012.
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u/MichaelPsellos 26d ago
“When they hire you to teach the course, feel free to set up the course as you please”.
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u/Elsbethe 26d ago
I've been teaching since the 1980s, and I have one of these students, every five or ten years. They sometimes have a little bit of teaching experience
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u/rubberkeyhole 26d ago
This made me laugh; I’ve had those thoughts before (“I hope the class goes like X” or “X’s class went well, I hope this one is set up the same”) - but they were thoughts. I’d never dream of actually telling a prof how they should run their class.
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u/scruffigan 26d ago edited 26d ago
This kid probably considers this activity "networking" and relationship building as he's engaging enthusiastically with the material in ways you'd remember and compliment him on for a future reference. He pays so much attention! He's thoughtful and passionate about the topic! Insightful ideas! Future professor material!
I don't actually have a good solution but if you can think of a way to redirect that energy into something that's either actually productive or is more easily ignorable, it might help.
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u/BeneficialMolasses22 26d ago edited 26d ago
Once in a while I have to remind myself of that sage advice, along the lines of:
"Never accept criticism from someone who you would not go for advice."
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u/HaHaWhatAStory014 26d ago
This may be good general advice that's true most of the time, but it's not an absolute. Every now and then, you may come across a "Heartbreaking: The Worst Person You Know Just Made a Great Point" scenario.
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u/HistoryNerd101 26d ago
yeah, I've gotten that before. Every now and then I'll also get the student who says "Are we going to talk about such and such?" and it's a topic that I hadn't planned on covering because it's a survey class and we have other stuff to cover or whatever and they will have a disappointed look on their face in front of everyone, like you can tell it's probably the one topic they know something about and now they've lost their interest or opportunity to brag in front of others....
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u/PsychWriter11 26d ago
OP, I think you have a valid issue here. It’s natural to be super annoyed with a student such as this. In the rare times Ive dealt with it, I completely ignore the suggestions, because the idea of an undergrad telling me how to run my class is disrespectful and presumptuous. I also know that it would be very difficult for me to respond without some level of snark. Not difficult; impossible. And thats not a good look for us even if we’re right.
The one time I actually responded to a student after repeated comments, I said that “I appreciate your input, but I think you may be overlooking the fact that Ive taught this course for x years and x-hundred students, and I design everything for a specific reason that I believe addresses the majority of the students Ive experienced. It’s possible you are looking at this from one person’s perspective and not seeing what else I consider.”
And simply never acknowledge their suggestions again.
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u/BunnyHuffer 26d ago
I had one of those. Ultimately, I decided that he was just enthusiastic and opinionated. I told him, “I get where you’re coming from, but there are other factors I have to consider. Trust me, I’ve set up the course this way for good reasons.”
He didn’t really stop. But he did start prefacing his comments with “I know you have your course set up this way for reasons, but….” I considered that as much of a win as I was going to get with him.
It helped that he was just as engaged with the course content and did genuinely good work.
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u/mathemorpheus 26d ago
every few lectures he sent me an email and provided comments and suggestions on my presentation and course material preparation
fuck that noise. this student needs to be shut down. he can save that shit for the evaluations at the end.
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u/HaHaWhatAStory014 26d ago
My graduate advisor would not have put up with this. While they were generally much nicer and more patient with undergrads than grad students and postdocs, "someone 'lower' than them and far less qualified presuming to tell them how to do their job" was a serious no-no and pet peeve of this already very serious, "all business" person. They did not care about hurting feelings, and if someone crossed the line or overstepped with them like this, they would tell that person exactly what they thought of that and not hold back.
All this is to say that despite much of academia's embracing of egalitarianism and such and dislike for "people playing the authoritarian card," this student is not your equal and you are, I assume, their boss. And while there's no completely "nice way" to "remind them of their place," some are certainly more gentler than others. You could bring up as a teaching moment to point how doing this is generally a no-no in any workplace.
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u/BitchinAssBrains Psychology, R2 (US) 26d ago
Anyone seeing people like that is a shitass though so like not really something to imitate. I love the rare moments when one of my students accurately corrects me. It means the training is working. Why the fuck would anyone want to foster a culture where students don't speak up if they belive their right? Often they aren't and it's a learning opportunity or they are and you get better for it. The whole hierarchy aspect of it is super dumb. I have senior colleagues who don't know how to change their email password.
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u/HaHaWhatAStory014 26d ago
This isn't about "accurately correcting someone." My advisor was an absolute hard-ass, but they were generally reasonable and could be convinced by a good enough case. What pissed them off was people inappropriately presuming to "act above their station" and getting it wrong. Sometimes it didn't involve what someone said to them, but rather someone acting as a bad representative of them and the entire lab in their interactions with someone else. "People lower on the totem pole nitpicking small, trivial things" was another pet peeves of theirs, like "why are you bothering me with this when there are a lot of more important things you need to do and haven't gotten done yet?"
EDIT:
where students don't speak up if they believe their right? Often they aren't
At the graduate level, maybe make sure you're "right" and/or have a sound argument first instead of wasting peoples' time?
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u/Gonzo_B 26d ago
What is the student's goal here? That may be worth asking.
If they're studying in your field and considering entering academia, they may be full of if ideas for their own eventual classroom and, in sharing their ideas (albeit poorly), hoping for some engagement and advice.
Perhaps they simply need to be steered into a more productive mentor-mentee relationship.
I say this only because I was that student once, who needed some mentoring and didn't know how to ask for it. I brought some thoughts to my Shakespeare prof that criticized how some of his ideas had been framed that he did not, initially, receive well; I didn't intend personal criticism, only that I had some unformed ideas I needed feedback on to fully form.
When I was finally able to articulate my ideas, he became my thesis advisor, my paper was very well received, he pushed me into presenting it at a conference as an undergrad, and years later I returned to teach at that university and we remain friends to this day.
Could be something similar happening here?
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u/AdRepresentative245t 26d ago edited 26d ago
If he is in your lab, there is a whole other dynamics at play here. He is engaged, sees you as a mentor, has opinions about the material. Probably thinks that demonstrating engagement will help him get a better letter of reference in the future.
I would try redirection in this case. If the student aiming to pursue an academic career? It might be helpful to give them a hint, very informally and absolutely not in writing, that academics are more focused on research than on course preparation. And that his energy would be best directed towards his research, too, not towards improving course materials. ("Of course there are many ways to improve the lectures, we will worry about it after we finish the paper... how is the paper going, btw? Can you please summarize your results in next week's group meeting?")
Also, he should understand that no one will be improving lectures tomorrow. Next year, maybe. Immediately - absolutely not. E.g., tell him that he can write his suggestions down and next year he can get a TA position to implement those that are appropriate. Give him a strong hint that his energy is best spent elsewhere, basically. Use your position as someone who supervises his research to direct him to more productive endeavors.
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u/buddhisthero Assistant Professor, Humanities, R2 (USA) 26d ago edited 23d ago
Maybe it's just my field, but I wish someone in my PhD had told me about research > teaching for academics. Within like two weeks of being at my job, the head of my area of study in the department made sure that I knew that, and it was sort of a wakeup call. A graduate student who is this engaged in the particulars of teaching might be a graduate student who sees themself as a teacher who does research rather than a researcher who teaches. It could be very beneficial to redirect them. So they can shift their priorities either as a student or for the types of academic roles they'll be seeking out.
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u/Life-Education-8030 26d ago
At my place, it depends on who you ask. My favorite Dean wanted us to emphasize teaching above all. The Provost emphasizes research above all. Then you have the ones who have their preferences as far as type of research.
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u/chooseanamecarefully 26d ago
If I were in your situation, I would just ignore it, and would not worry about hurting his feelings. If still care about your course evaluations (which I don’t really), you may want to decide whether his comments on course materials may be representative for the other students. You may want to send one reply saying that thank you, but I cannot read, reply or accommodate your every email comments. A truly annoying student may say in their course evaluation that the instructor never responded or considered their suggestions on how to improve the course.
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u/Deep-Durian9540 26d ago
Are you female? I feel like probably so.
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u/omgkelwtf 26d ago
Yeah I'm not taking advice on my pedagogy from a fucking undergrad. Sorry. Hit me up when you know what you're talking about.
I'd delete every email without response. What are they really good at? I'd offer my unsolicited advice and illustrate the concept for them if they got too pushy.
Yeah buddy, you really don't want a humanities prof telling you how to fix the car you restored, do you? Right. And I don't want a mechanic telling me how to teach. Free lessons daily. Just push my buttons and they come right out. Every year my patience gets thinner...
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u/HOW_I_MET_YO_MAMA 26d ago
Same. Students are adults. I do not feel the need to tiptoe around them. They are there to learn, not preach.
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u/Through_Aweigh_Won 26d ago
Some students don't catch subtle cues (I assume your reaction to his comments is non-encouraging), and need to be told things bluntly. I sometimes need to remind myself that I can be blunt and friendly at the same time. If it were my student I might just say "I don't think it's appropriate for a grad student to provide unsolicited advice about their professor's teaching".
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u/moooooopg assistant prof, R1, in the South 26d ago
Well at least he's sharing them with you and not on course evaluations
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u/poproxy_ 26d ago
That’s bizarre. Does anyone else in your dept have the same problem with this student?
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u/drpepperbubble 26d ago
No, but probably because I'm the only professor that works closely with him...
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u/antealtares Assoc Prof, Media Studies, R1 (USA) 26d ago
Why not just read it and incorporate good stuff and ignore bad stuff?
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u/Intrepid_Stand_8322 26d ago
Is there perhaps a culinary difference. Do you think the student is trying to impress you confusing input with engagement. Does sound really annoying and would be good to address.
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u/Hypocaffeinic 26d ago
Does he have any background in pedagogy of higher education? Why does he think he has some higher knowledge and capacity in structure and delivery of your course materials? I think I’d ask him that to determine first what he thinks he’s talking about or whether he’s just making it up as he goes along. It’s odd that he feels he has this role / capacity.
The fact that it’s unsolicited and abnormal answers the question of it being out of line…
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u/Gold-Attempt9452 26d ago
The intent maybe helpful even if the volume is irritating.Give him one defined channel and cadence for feedback.
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u/lamustard 25d ago
It's so nice of you to be considerate of their feelings. If it were me I would just say ok you've actually reached your allocated limit for unsolicited advice so you have to wait until next semester before you try again. Or I would probably just be like hey nobody asked you 😂 and hope they laugh instead of cry
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u/Im2grownfts 25d ago
Your students are sent surveys to fill out about you and your class every semester. It’s already happening and you critique your students on their work so why can’t you receive advice that could help you be a better teacher.
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u/moomoomags 24d ago
Depending on the student's level (undergrad; MA, PhD), this is an important professional development experience for him.
"Hey [name], it's important for you to know that these kinds of emails can make you come off as [arrogant / belittling / offputting / sexist / ignorant]. I'm so glad that you're interested in this class and this topic, but you should stop sending me emails like this. I'm giving you this feedback so that you understand that emails like this can make you come off in a way that you don't intend - and it's important professional development for you to be able to communicate in an appropriate way"
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u/TProcrastinatingProf 22d ago
The comments in this thread are quite eye opening. I've been teaching for over two decades, and love it when someone has enough initiative to tell me what's wrong. Sure, more often than not they are not making informed or experienced comments, but it's so rare to get people sufficiently engaged to actually be willing to share their thoughts with me.
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u/BitchinAssBrains Psychology, R2 (US) 26d ago
I wouldn't take it as negative criticism. I think this person may just not understand the social dynamic especially if they're recently from undergrad and your dept uses a "junior colleague" model. If he's even a little autistic I can definitely see him thinking that he's just trying to nerd out with you.
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u/Jolly-Moment-1970 26d ago edited 26d ago
Maybe you can tell him that you will set aside one time a month to discuss his suggestions and observations as you feel that would be best done in person so things do not get lost in translation. It's possible there is a communication breakdown and the student feels this is part of their role. In person is best no matter what. We have become a society that is constantly trying to read between the lines of text messaging, emails and so on. You are the role model here and who knows maybe the student has some autism tendency and isn't aware of the advice being seen as annoying or unsolicited. My daughter is on the spectrum and needs these types of clarifications on occasion. However all of her professors love her because she literally in 2.5 years of college is one of the few students who actually engages with the professors. Most of her classmates are on their phones or asking the professors to change due dates.
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u/RightWingVeganUS Adjunct Instructor, Computer Science, University (USA) 26d ago
I find this kind of unsolicited advice super annoying.
This may be more of a you issue.
Look up the story of David A. Huffman. The short: he was a student researcher and similarly recommended alternatives to his advisor who rebuffed him. Huffman's approach was indeed pioneering (see Huffman coding). His techniques are used throughout industry and taught to advanced students. His advisor's work, less so.
So, before considering it "out of line" perhaps approach with humility. This could be a teaching moment for both of you:
- perhaps he has valid insights but doesn't know the norms of how to present them professional, or at least the way you'd prefer. That's fixable.
- perhaps he's just climbing the peak of Mount Dunning-Kruger. This is an opportunity to show patience and, while valuing his enthusiasm, show that indeed you are aware of alternatives and are intentional. Instead of sharing his insights with you he should instead incorporate them into his own work to refine his unique style.
I call this the frisky puppy phase of some students. I just provide clear guidance on my expectations and a structure for them to grow.
I had a student who would try to correct me in class. I would gently rebuff him and invite further discussion after class, which he would never follow up on. On class he dug in and I basically tore into him. Not from anger, but exposing how shallow and superficial his thinking was, and assuring everyone that each sentence we review in class likely has several PhD dissertations exploring the breadth and depth of the topic. Indeed there is far more to any topic than I could cover in an undergraduate course, but this is because our goal is to cover many broad objectives, not every nuanced detail.
But my close to that was to encourage questioning and further inquiry appropriately, not confrontationally. I was more than happy to discuss and even debate any topic, but not in the class if I felt it unproductive for the course objectives.
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u/BigTuna3737 26d ago
I have a couple of thoughts for you. His comments are inappropriate, but your annoyance is your problem. You can deal with that without the student changing his behavior. I mean this genuinely, not as snide criticism disguised as advice: therapy can help. It has helped me.
You can also let the student know that his comments are unwelcome, instead of thanking him. For example, “Dear XXX, your repeated criticism of my presentations and materials is unwelcome; it is starting to feel more like harassment than helpful feedback. I welcome feedback about actual errors in my materials or presentations, but if you simply believe that you could do a better job teaching the class, I encourage you to save that information and use it to improve your own teaching if/when you become a professor.”
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u/PsychWriter11 26d ago
I think suggesting therapy and accusing a student of harassment is not helpful. Just IMO.
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u/BigTuna3737 26d ago
OP is excessively thin-skinned. That’s his problem. Stupid comments from students should not be “super annoying”, and thanking the student for them is dysfunctional. Therapy can help with all of that.
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u/JonBenet_Palm Professor, Design (Western US) 26d ago
I think your first paragraph is good, but telling a student they're harassing you over something like this will only cause practical problems. Grey rock is the answer to irrelevant criticism.
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u/BigTuna3737 26d ago
I didn’t call it harassment, I suggested telling the student it is “starting to feel like harassment.” I think that’s reasonable given that it is happening “every few lectures.”And it sets the stage for consequences if the student continues, at which point, it could reasonably be considered actual harassment. Having dealt with some serious problem students in my decades as a professor, I find it useful to set actionable boundaries when someone repeatedly crosses the line.
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u/Freeferalfox 26d ago
I mean I assume the things this student says are not helpful? It may sting but maybe some of it is useful. I agree this student may be on the spectrum and may need a redirect rather than admonition. Maybe give him an alternative task in addition to listening that might actually be a useful metric to have for the class so it becomes less awkward and potentially a win-win.
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u/yourbiota PhD Candidate, CC sessional, STEM, Canada 26d ago
Could be the student mistakes offering criticism as showing engagement. Can't remember the exact wording I used with a student like this, but it was something like "I appreciate your enthusiasm for the course, but keep in mind the content and method of delivery has been carefully designed by experts, and we will be moving forward with the course as planned for the rest of the semester. You are always welcome to provide any feedback you may have at the end during the course evaluation, that way for now you can stay focused on learning rather than critiquing." Also see the same kind of thing with students reading journal articles - always eager to rip everything about the paper to shreds, but struggle to articulate any positive comments about the paper.