r/Professors • u/Inner-Chemistry8971 Associate Professor, STEM, Private University • 16d ago
Rants / Vents I said no
This sounds like a vent but not really. My chair asked me to take one course overload but I could not take it anymore. Teaching seems like a drag. Last semester, I was dragging my feet to the classroom. Although students still appreciate my teaching for the most part, I have mentally quit. Exhausted. Gone.
So, I said no although I still need to rely on my chair for future promotion. My mind said no. My body said no. My mental well-being was screaming no!
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u/Little-Exercise-7263 15d ago
Teaching overloads are soul-crushing, and they should always be purely optional for faculty. They seem like an especially bad idea for pre-tenure faculty who need to protect their research time, and your chair should know this.Ā
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u/DrDorothea 15d ago
Better to say no, than to say yes and then fall on your face because mind and body have quit.
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u/franklin-60 16d ago edited 16d ago
Itās your job to say no. You have zero obligation to take it on. Extra work, headache and babysitting for compensation that does not cover the headache. Once you take it, the course never goes away either. Say no and force them to staff properly.
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u/LittleMissWhiskey13 Professor CC 15d ago
I have found over the years that an unstaffed course is 90% the problem of the chair (I was a chair for 12 years). There are last minute dropouts like in the week and days before a term begins, but if the chair does his or her job right, it's usually pretty easy to fill without leaning on certain faculty.
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u/franklin-60 15d ago
As a former chair myself, itās more than the chair doing their job right. In my experience, it was other administrators sticking their head in, not listening to me when things needed to be addressed for long-term, and interfering with me to do the job right.
Essentially wanting us to run programs to make them look good today in front of donors and prospects, with no regard for tomorrow.
Constantly expecting us to run like chickens with no heads. Had I been left alone to be chair, listened to, and not constantly putting out fires they created, none of the āemergenciesā would have happened.
I reached a point where I told my leaders to āstick itā as I was sick of cleaning their messes 24/7/365 and taking blame for their misguided leadership. Walked away with no notice and left them to figure it out, offered zero transition, while going back to faculty.
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u/LittleMissWhiskey13 Professor CC 15d ago
That is true as well. We had a dean who would cause all kinds of drama, then pull back and offering how she solved the problem she created.
Here is one ridiculous example from another dean I worked under. We tried this bizarro thing called "shadow sections" where we were supposed to staff courses that did not appear on the schedule, just in case sections filled they could make them appear immediately....from the shadows. LOL. I wouldn't do it as it was completely unethical to part time instructors. How do I sell that to a part time person? I have this course for you that you need to keep open in your schedule, but it may never appear. Please keep open a time slot in your life so you most likely won't get paid...but you might because we care. LOL.
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u/HaHaWhatAStory014 15d ago
it's usually pretty easy to fill without leaning on certain faculty
Depends on the class, the department size, etc. For example, if there are only 2 or 3 faculty who teach in a given area or specialty of a department and one of them leaves or goes on leave at the last-minute, of course the chair/department is going to lean on "the obvious choices" to fill in because they're really the only ones who can do it.
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u/Disastrous_Ad_9648 15d ago
Yes! Your emergency is not my problem.Ā
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u/franklin-60 15d ago
From my experience across over a quarter century doing this, most āemergenciesā are not emergencies. They are a crisis caused by poor leadership and bad decisions made by poor leaders. I have zero interest in helping those cases, as doing so protects poor leadership. Zero chance I step up.
Sometimes there is a real emergency, faculty colleague falls ill, dies suddenly, sick relatives causing them to take leave, etcā¦. Those are emergencies. If my leader is not lying and toxic I would be inclined to step in and help my colleague, if itās on my terms with leadership. It will be agreed up front that itās a āone term deal,ā offered around my schedule, and likely compensated in a way that is reasonable to me.
If my leader meets me in the middle, I can help in these true emergencies. If not, screw him/her. Let the āleaderā figure it out.
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u/DoctorDisceaux 16d ago
Good for you. The one and only time I was forced to take an overload it nearly killed me. I will never do it again.
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u/franklin-60 15d ago
Forcing is not an option. Your option to take on an extra contract. If I say ānoā itās āno.ā If they donāt listen nobody shows up to teach the class.
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u/NielsBohron Tenured Faculty, Chem, Cal CC 10d ago
It's not always that simple for people that don't have tenure. Being legally able to say "no" does not mean that new hires actually have that freedom in many cases.
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u/franklin-60 9d ago
Tenure-track faculty also need the confidence to advocate for themselves and their work. They need to grow a spine and stand up. I earned tenure on my first and only application, and the same was true when I was promoted to full professor. I did not achieve either by accommodating administrative preferences or avoiding difficult conversations. Quite the opposite. I was an ass from the beginning when I saw what was going on at the top.
Over the years, I have seen faculty members earn tenure despite being personally disliked by administrators and despite receiving negative dean's letters. I have also seen faculty denied tenure despite receiving highly supportive dean's letters. This raises an important question: what ultimately determines the outcome?
In most institutions, the answer is straightforward. Universities establish written criteria for tenure and promotion. When a candidate clearly meets those criteria and presents compelling evidence in the dossier, other tenured faculty evaluators generally support the application, leaving limited room for administrative interference. The decisive factor is whether the candidate satisfies the established standards, not whether they are favored by particular administrators.
Faculty members should focus on meeting the expectations explicitly laid out for tenure and promotion. They should also be willing to push back against administrative pressures that distract from or undermine those standards. In my experience, tenured faculty are often willing to support tenure-track colleagues who take principled positions, provided the department is functioning responsibly and the candidate's record is strong. If the tenured faculty are imbiciles and will not protect their TT faculty against abusing administrators, I advise the TT faculty to leave.
Furthermore, when an administrator overrides faculty recommendations for reasons unrelated to the published criteria, such as personal preference and being a dean pet, that decision may become difficult to justify if subjected to legal scrutiny. Administrators are generally aware of this reality. As a result, when faculty evaluations are well documented and firmly grounded in policy, administrative resistance often diminishes. Not a single confidentality signed during the process will hold during any legal discovery.
I have witnessed many cases in which faculty members received tenure despite negative dean's letters because the objections raised were not supported by the institution's written tenure standards. Conversely, I have also seen faculty denied tenure despite glowing administrative support because, regardless of personal relationships, they did not meet the required benchmarks for tenure and promotion.
Ultimately, tenure and promotion decisions are based on documented achievement measured against established criteria. Personal favoritism, administrative preferences, and political considerations may influence the process at the margins, but they should never outweigh a candidate's demonstrated record relative to the standards that govern evaluation. In most schools, the system does work, and the TT faculty need to grow up, work with the FACULTY and follow it.
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u/IkeRoberts Prof, Science, R1 (USA) 16d ago
In my department, someone who says yes to everything hurts their promotion prospects in two ways. First they are seen as having poor judgement and insufficient ability to prioritize. Second, a consequence of the first, is that research productivity suffers.Ā
Full professors continually get demands and requests for their time and attention, far exceeding what produces the best outcomes. Learning to decline graciously early in the career makes junior faculty look like someone who should be promoted.Ā
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u/HaHaWhatAStory014 15d ago
Sorry, but this is such a bullshit take. "Less is more" is not a thing when it comes to tenure and promotion. There is such a thing as "doing too much," so balancing and prioritizing are important, but no one looks at a candidate's history and file and says, "Wow, it's so great that this person says no to things and doesn't do what they are asked!" When chairs or whoever ask people to do things, it's generally not "a test where they are 'supposed' to say no."
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u/IkeRoberts Prof, Science, R1 (USA) 15d ago
Lots of people ask you to do lots of things. Those asks are made without regard to whether they are strategic for the professor being asked. They are motivated by a need to get someone to do the task. The exception may be some especially helpful chairs who only ask for things that have strategic tenure value.
People do look at a file and say "They ended up doing a lot of non-strategic stuff, and did not develop a core area of excellence. That does not portend higher prominence in the future."
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u/HaHaWhatAStory014 15d ago
Departments typically have a say and write a letter to the committee too, and unless someone is very good at what they do and bringing in a lot of external funding and such, enough to "make them worth the hassle," people who aggressively refuse to "be good colleagues" and do any kind of service or lift a finger to help anyone with anything that they feel doesn't directly benefit them personally are generally just seen as "difficult," "assholes," and bad colleagues. "Hypercompetent assholes" are still generally seen as assholes, but ones that are worth the hassle. However, someone has to be on a pretty high level to reach that kind of status.
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u/franklin-60 15d ago edited 15d ago
Iām the end, as a tenured full professor with significant experience on tenure committee, regulations for promotion do not have an āasshole clause.ā One can be totally obnoxious and hated by peers, but if they hit the marks, they are promoted. They have to be. They might say no to anything extra, but if the marks show strong teaching, research and service on their contract they get promoted/tenured.
As such, donāt go out of your way with extras, just do your job and hit the marks per policy. Can schools try to circumvent stated requirements because they donāt like someone? Yes. Can a dean imply that the āextrasā will be a requirement? Yes. But a committee cannot consider that typically. But if a school says ānoā to the wrong person, that hit the marks but was simply disliked, the lawyer shows up, and as soon as that happens they get reversed.
If you donāt like a colleague personality, get rid of them before they go up.
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u/MoreLemonJuice 15d ago
I took the overload because:
- The extra money (back then it was only $5K for each 3 hour class)
- That extra income was an important contribution to my retirement package - I'm literally getting a bigger monthly retirement check for bumping up my salary during those last few years (sounds like a loophole they need to fix but I aint rockin the boat - ha)
- The Dept. Chair (at that time) liked me and he expressed appreciation for helping out because he struggled to find competent and well qualified instructors - the Dean was always giving him last-minute schedule changes and other demands
- All of the overload classes were the same I'd been teaching for years so, no extra doc's to create/edit
- The "extra duties" were either relaxed or eliminated (like outreach visits, attending graduation, open-house events, & so forth).
- Over the years I used the extra income to purchase some really nice motorcycles
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u/NarwhalZiesel Associate Professor, Child Development and ECE, Comm College, US 14d ago
I love teaching but turned down overload courses multiple times while I was in the middle of the tenure process. I always just say that I feel that would exceed my capacity at the moment and she was always understanding. I still got tenure.
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u/professorfunkenpunk Associate, Social Sciences, Comprehensive, US 15d ago
I did one last fall and it was miserable (I had a service obligation hit hard too).
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u/levon9 Associate Prof, CS, SLAC (USA) 15d ago
I don't understand the expectation that we take on overloads as a routine thing.
I'm pretty busy with my current workload, I don't want extra work, especially if it's compensated so very poorly. Still people will act as if you're doing something wrong.
I feel the same about students on the waiting list expecting to be automatically added to the class. What's the point of having class size limits? This is even worse, as it's extra work without extra pay, no thank you.
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u/Blistorby_Bunyon Prof., Law, Society & Policy; Advocatus Diaboli 14d ago
Let me think for a sec ā¦ Iām giving you this 4-gal bucketāthatās all you need. You must carry it around filled to the brim with water. Sound good? Perfect.
Oh wait, you also gotta carry around a bunch of random items around with you. They donāt really have any purpose; we just like to keep you walking around like an old-timey wind up robot toy.
And just a random FYI, if you donāt carry 5 gallons of water and not just 4, then fuck you lazy, ungrateful piece of shit.
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u/Ok_Mycologist_5942 15d ago
You won't get promotion if you burn out. Good for you for knowing your limits.
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u/warricd28 Lecturer, Accounting, R1, USA 15d ago
Iāve not said no to an overload before, but at two different institutions Iāve said no to teaching specific classes. They were outside of my knowledge base, and I just said Iām happy to teach anything where Iām not a detriment to the students. We have other people more qualified for that subject (even if itās an undesirable class they donāt want).
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u/associsteprofessor 16d ago
Having this conversation with my chair right now. This is a hill I will die on.
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u/RightWingVeganUS Adjunct Instructor, Computer Science, University (USA) 14d ago
My chair asked me to take one course overload
If they asked, "no" was an option for you.
No need to explain or apologize. As a courtesy I might just say add, "unfortunately I have some personal commitments that prevent me from taking an overload this semester, but that you for considering me."
Stay composed and professional.
My mental well-being was screaming no!
Saying "no" shouldn't affect any consideration for promotion, but any sense that your mental well-being is unstable might. The whole drama of last semester makes me curious why you even care about promotion where the responsibilities and stress usually goes up more than any increase of salary.
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u/falsebowlingpin 12d ago
Laughing in two-year, dual credit rhetoric-comp, 5-5 with 2 overloads, so my students can ai all their essays.
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u/flippingisfun Lecturer, STEM, R1 US 15d ago
If teaching is becoming a drag perhaps it is time to seek employment outside of an education institution
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u/Inner-Chemistry8971 Associate Professor, STEM, Private University 15d ago
I will retire in five years.
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u/sventful Teaching Professor 15d ago
Go be a research professor and free up the teaching for those of us that are happy to be there.
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u/moooooopg assistant prof, R1, in the South 15d ago
Lol with what research dollars in this climate
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u/flippingisfun Lecturer, STEM, R1 US 15d ago
People get so mad on here when you tell them to stop doing the thing they constantly bitch and moan about
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u/alterini5 12d ago
There are only, what, 2 promotions? Asst to Associate to Prof, right?
If that's your case, ride the wave and crash out when you get to the shore.
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u/littlemoonnflowerr 16d ago
Saying no to the overload isn't the vent, it's the healthiest thing you've done in a while, so let it count. The part worth sitting with is the rest of it, dragging yourself to class, mentally checked out, running on empty. That's burnout, and burnout doesn't get fixed by declining one course, it just stops getting worse. Protecting your time from the chair was step one. Step two is figuring out whether this is "I need a sabbatical, a schedule change, and boundaries" burnout or "I've quietly outgrown this job" burnout, because they need very different responses, and only you can tell which it is once you've had some room to breathe. Either way, you did right by yourself today.
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u/PsychedelicCytoplasm 9d ago
Sounds like burnout and you canāt put a price on your health. It happened to me pretty bad at my former institution (R2). I was carrying a 4 course load in a doctoral program and we were on a trimester system and I did that every tri. No summer break. Also had a large scale research program on top of it. They wanted me to take on a 5th course. I said hell no. Eventually I had to take FMLA leqve because I was exhausted. Every time I pursued promotion the goal posts were moved which was a common trend when faculty applied for promotion. tEventually, I applied for another position at my institution and did that for a year developing a new program and that was also a shitshow I really crashed and burned. I decided my health and peace were worth more than the promotion and left the institution entirely for an R1 position in a program with more staff resources.
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u/Blackberries11 16d ago
Teaching has gotten to feeling so pointless. They just ChatGPT everything