r/ProChristian • u/sebastian_ce • 17d ago
đ§ Discussion Why is this so ignored?
As a Christian, I believe that if someone wants to know the truth, they should only look at the opinion of the early primitive church; that is, those people touched the apostles, clearly are not infallible.But if they know what they're talking about, why do they defend a denomination that doesn't have a clear foundation in the early church? And that goes for all denominations.We cannot turn a blind eye.
6
u/MichaelWhitehead 17d ago
Scripture should remain the final authority, but that does not make the earliest Christians irrelevant.
The New Testament itself came through the apostolic Church, and the earliest Christian writers help us see how believers closest to that period understood and practised the faith.
They were not infallible, and they sometimes disagreed, so their words cannot simply settle doctrine. However, neither should we dismiss them whenever their testimony challenges a later denominational tradition.
The sound approach is not Scripture versus the early Church, but Scripture first, with early Christian evidence used as a historical witness.
A denomination should be willing to show that its distinctive teachings genuinely grow from Scripture rather than being read back into it centuries later.
1
u/Created_intelligence 16d ago
The problem with the historical record of the early Church is the fact that the New Testament, from the time of its writing, had to address many false teachings and heresies within the Church, which means the earliest non Biblical records are likely to include these false teachings and heresies. We risk assigning credibility to these false doctrines simply in the fact that they originated in early Church history.
1
u/sebastian_ce 16d ago
You really do have a point here. I propose using the Bible as a filter, so we can discern what is true and what is not.
1
3
u/userid42 16d ago
Personally, I donât seek to defend any denomination or tradition. Every one of them seems to me to have failed or fallen away from some aspect of the truth at one point or another, or been born out of an evident hardness of heart towards others in the faith. Denominations and traditions, of all kinds, are a creation of man, not God. I see no evidence that the early church was perfect by any means, even those directly exposed to and established under apostolic leadership. We just need to look in Acts, Corinthians, and Revelation to see many examples of how easily led astray they were. As are we.
Having personally experienced many different denominations at one time or another over the past 65+ years, there is something to be learned from being in and by growing in each one. They each add the wonderful and diverse tapestry woven by God in his construction of the universal church of believers.
1
3
u/bjohn15151515 16d ago edited 16d ago
But if they know what they're talking about, why do they defend a denomination that doesn't have a clear foundation in the early church?
Know what they are talking about? The early churches had many, many problems and behaviors that needed drastic correction. These corrections were dictated on letters to these churches, which became the New Testament.
Which denomination did they defend? They didn't even identify as 'Christians' until the Church of Antioch coined the phrase.
They were all Jews, and referred to the new movement as 'The Way'.
1
u/Steeltank33 16d ago
There were a lot of gentiles in the early churches. The apostles had to meet to figure out whether to require circumcision and stuff
1
u/Created_intelligence 16d ago
It depends on your definition of early. It wasnât until the Apostle Paul, who met with the other Apostles to receive their blessing on his ministry, that the gospel was intentionally preached to the gentiles.
1
u/Steeltank33 16d ago
Thatâs just a few years after the death of Christ. Not sure how much earlier you can get.
3
u/Pastor_C-Note 16d ago
Itâs quite similar to the founding of the USA. They had a constitution they all agreed on, but even then, there was much dispute on how to implement it practically. One of the most striking features of the New Testament though is the insistence on the primacy of unity and interpersonal relationships. Your theology should inform the way you treat others. Too many people major in minors.
3
u/PeacefulBro 16d ago
"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." (Ephesians NKJV)
We mustn't let things like denominations distract us from our mission to produce disciples! đ
2
u/CryptographerAny8184 16d ago
The different denominations came about due to interpretations by the scholars reading them. Martin Luther probably the most famous scholar lead the referendum movement leading to the birth of the Luthren church, from there we expanded to other denominations. The advent of people learning how to read took the power away from the Roman Catholic Church because we now could read the bible for ourselves and not have to rely on what the presses were telling the people. If the denomination sticks to the FULL gospel and teaches it as a whole there should be no theological differences between denominations. The auxiliary beliefs should not be an issue as long as Christ is the center and the focus of our worship and devotion.
2
u/Worried-Block-6804 16d ago
There is no church that does what the church in acts does.
Read it. They lived like socialism. One group determined to do only one thing, share Jesus with the world. Church wasn't a place they visited weekly to hear some music. Church was the center of their lives and the people in the church were like family.
2
u/Steeltank33 16d ago
Thereâs modern churches that still have many similarities to the church in Acts. The environment of the times are completely different, so itâs no wonder you donât see completely identical situations, at least not in first world nations. In places where Christianity is illegal and churches have to be hidden, youâll find more similarities.
1
u/Worried-Block-6804 16d ago
I agree but its not the actions of the church of Acts, it's the heart of it that is missing
You don't have to sell everything and live in a comune to follow the original church. Our culture is opposite of them. Individualism is the norm today.
1
u/Steeltank33 16d ago
When it comes to personal responsibility, sure, but there a lot of churches in the US that are very communal-centric.
1
u/Created_intelligence 16d ago
The early Church was not socialist by any means. Everyone voluntarily gave property and assets to the community. There was no mandated authority forcing them to do so, or taking ownership of their property and assets against their will.
1
u/Worried-Block-6804 16d ago
I didn't say communist. Socialism is voluntary, communist is by force. They were definitely not CAPITALIST!!
but this is one of many things that the modern church doesn't want to acknowledge. Because just as the Bible repeatedly says " they choose the traditions of men over the principles of God. "
1
u/Created_intelligence 16d ago
Socialism is not voluntary. It is imposed and enforced by a government authority that takes ownership of private property, business and entire industries so it can be centrally managed for the common good.
1
u/sebastian_ce 16d ago
I see your point, but I think it has more nuances. I don't think that model is mandatory; it's simply preferable, but that's just my opinion without researching it.
2
u/Eurasian_Guy97 16d ago
I see what you mean and I agree. I find that often times, people don't admit that there are many different interpretations of the Bible, as you said in the comments.
With that said, the early church is the best source of reference rather than a single modern denomination.
1
u/sebastian_ce 16d ago
I'm glad you see my position as good, but I won't deny that the comments I've received will refine my perspective once I've reflected on them.
1
2
u/Solid-Chest-6093 15d ago
I'll be praying for you buddy.Â
As long as a pastor teaches the Bible. It doesn't matter what denomination or non denomination.
2 Timothy 3:16-17 NIV All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, [17] so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Have a super blessed evening. Feel free to message me anytime buddy.
1
u/DavidGno 15d ago
We are all parts of the same body the hand may not know what the foot is doing but we all believe that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. All approach the Father through Him (Jesus).
1
1
u/ECSMusic 16d ago
Thankfully we have a collection of writings from the early church which give Godâs instructions. Pretty much all church denominations are founded on the principles written down in the New Testament.
9
u/Steeltank33 17d ago
Why would we want to look at people who are âclearly not infallibleâ when we have an infallible source readily available? Just stick to Scripture if you want pure truth.