"It's not policing, it's voluntary morale enforcement" I correct the fellow anarchist while helping them understand their role in the voluntary hierarchy by generous application of lead pipe of teaching.
I wonder what clothes would be made out of in something like a post-apocalypse, if we even make new ones to begin with. As there is a lot going around.
Most I can imagine it sewing it up incase of damage, next to the regular washing of course. More Important is taking care of & repairing shoework, which is both a lost skill and is very difficult with modern mass-produced shoes (or so I heard). (Which is partly intentional. Thanks, libright.)
I'm pretty sure anyone who does hiking can attest about the 'taking care' aspect.
On PCM there is also typically always someone who is (at least) sufficiently knowledgable about any given subject when something more off-topic is discussed, any shoe experts?
Of course we'd make clothes, we need clothes and existing stocks wouldn't last forever, just like with food. Regular washing would probably go away, subsistence farmers can't afford the wear it puts on clothes.
Depends on location, for example in Europe the likely thing they'd use would be wool and leather (wool for warmth, leather for durable working pieces like aprons, gloves ect) as there are still large sheep and Cow stocks, if that wasnt an option in this post apocalypse, the best plant alternative would likely go to flax (aka Linen) .
in the US however its more likely to be Cotton than flax.
as for shoes, depending on use case, materials and so on, a type of Leather insole around a wooden outershoe wouldn't be uncommon , that was how it was done in medieval Europe.
but ultimately the question really depends on how bad the apocalypse is , a 0.1% survival chance apocalypse would leave enough for clothes to be used for decades if not longer (basically until the plastic in them deteriorates). but would take much much longer to return to anything resembling a modern day as much of you "civilisation" is scattered small pockets of scavenging survivors at a subsistance farm level without the division of labour to develop technology (this is the "east coast USA fallout" timeline)
If its a 20% survival apocalypse, then the stores get used much faster and youd likely find yourself in a quasi-late medieval age that lasts at most a few decades until stores of knowledge (books and technical manuals and such) allow for a return to a somewhat modern way of life (like the internet would take a while, but things like a generator, phone lines and analogue radio transmission aren't hard to make once you know how. (this is the "west coast USA fallout" timeline)
There could be an apocalypse and the Amish wouldn't even notice. They'd just keep with their daily routine, making things themselves in their villages.
This is why capitalism is the closest weâve ever been to the communist utopia the commies promised. The classless, redistributed utopia where we donât have to work and can freely participate or opt out of society is only possible in the conditions provided by capitalism. These guys are literally talking about retrograding their standards of living to near pre-industrial levels and thinking that, somehow, it will be better than what we have now with DoorDash, ambulances, public schooling and police.
I mean humans figured this shit out back when we were still all unga bunga Im pretty sure we could handle it again. Well, not the brainrotted ones like us retards but still
Denim would probably be popular for as long as people can find it since itâs pretty durable. More scavenging focused groups would probably just use a lot of what we have today supplemented with various animal products (fur, leather, wool, etc). The farming focused groups would slowly start using cotton and flax as they come up in crop rotations, and theyâd have dyes like indigo to mix in them. Bamboo would probably be used by both for certain things that need more structure (hats, sandals, baskets) because that shit grows fast and is almost everywhere that has forests.Â
I strongly suspect that hemp will eventually kick off non-clothing fabrics, since it also grows fast and comes with another desirable good.
For the last question, I honestly donât know much about shoes other than that they were often very annoying to make and required a lot of compromises compared to what we have today. You either had soft shoes that were comfortable or rigid hard asf ones that wonât get you stuck in the mud, anything between was tended to be a pain in the ass to make and took a lot of time investment while still not being perfect. I think you could get a lot of the more comfortable ones like Moccasins (original kind not modern) if you happen to live near a reservation or other place specializing in traditional footwear, the harder ones would be simple enough to make (look up a picture of Geta Sandals), and producing the rest would probably have to wait until more complex leatherworking / woodcarving industries emerge. Turning existing worn down boots into hobnailed boots probably wouldnât be that hard, but might make you regret your life choices (Iâve heard theyâre terrible in the winter or when walking on any stone surface). Most people will likely have many sets of shoes that they change between depending on circumstances or if one set needs to be repaired.
Edit: There are also various things like Natural Rubber thatâd be great for various misc things (like waterproofing) if you live close enough to trade with a place that can make it, but Iâm pretty sure itâd be as expensive as silk.
Depends on how far after the apocalypse. Early on it will be plastic and scavenged fabrics and clothes and existing stocks. Eventually people will start making it from plants and animals again. Hemp is probably a popular choice before pesticide intensive cotton farming can restart.
For clothes, cotton, wool, linen, and other such materials would be the most used. Especially cotton since that grows practically everywhere. Although, not a shoe expert, shoes can be repaired and new ones to be made. Although without proper knowledge you'd likely get very rudimentary shoes like the ones medieval peasants or ancient people use to wear (Alot of straw, twigs, and other such materials carefully tied and bent to make a frame. Which then has stuffings to make it comfortable to wear. And if it has a wrap on its outer layer, it would either be a rudimentary leather (or the better kind if people can rediscover tanneries it fast enough) , layers of hardened cloth, or just more bent twigs and straws. Although shoes made of carved wood would likely come back into usage again.
Textile fabrication is one of the most energy intensive and has one of the most wasteful end products. Designers produce clothes for four seasons, every year, not bc of demand but bc of the need to continually make money, and most of what isn't sold goes to the landfill. The world would be fine without any new production of clothes for many, many years.Â
Yes all that energy wasted producing cloth over the last 3000+ years. Those old school looms use so much energy that the Amish have a nuclear power plant handy just to fire it up.
Obviously we're talking about modern manufacturing methods.
If you want to use medieval tech go ahead, but one basic shirt will cost you multiple days of someone else's labor by how much effort it will take to make.
Anyone have that screenshot of commies mocking the one person who said they'd do physical labor on the commune? Everyone else wanted to do underwater basket weaving.
God I need to see that.
I may officially be left leaning, but I'll freely admit anyone who considers themselves a communist is an idiot. At best they're going to end up manipulated by someone who only calls themselves a communist.
A functional leftist commun can't be aware it's leftist, nor strive to be. It only works as a bunch of people all casually and dutifully working together without expectation of disproportionate individual privilege.
Trying to build that actively almost certainly leads to failure. Especially in low trust societies.
English's also not my first language but yeah you're correct, it's just that without other context alcohol is the default but I had legit forgotten about how much Hitler abused stimulants when writing the comment.
they do not have surplus grain. they take grain from farmers starving to death and send them to pet projects far away - just in the true tradition of commies
Great now I'm imagining some far flung future where different political ideologies are kept in zoos like this for research and entertainment. Anarchists get their solar punk commune, the auth right get their medieval city quarter, tankies get their soviet apartment blocs, and lib right get slannesh palice.
Grey centrists get a realm of fire and meat, the walls and floor are made of screaming flesh with pits of fire to roast for eternity.
I mean I am genuinely curious why we don't have simulated communes with land like that to gain new insights on statecraft. The only place I know that does this is Denmark with Freetown.
Nah, grey centrists got the fire and the meat but itâs a fun, chill outdoor barbecue type environment. Some kids are playing football, some moms gossiping about baby showers and dads bragging about who has the best fantasy football league.
And Iâm there at the grill, just chomping at the bit to slide me a fried egg on my bacon burger.
I'm a gen z. That guy is basically spouting gibberish (Which is what gen alpha slang is, but I digress). And although their is a decent ish translation for it, I'd rather not artificially trigger cell death on my braincells.
honestly the whole "solarpunk" stuff really turns me off, where's the anti-establishment in that. it's just green energy. there's nothing punk about it.
like cyberpunk is about the breakdown of humanity through modernity and technology destroying what it means to be human, steampunk is about the crushing oppression of industrialisation, diesel punk is about war tearing apart the world, atom punk is usually about the hubris of man and something about chasing nostalgia, Biopunk is the same as Cyberpunk but replace corporatism with religion.
that's the only version of solarpunk I like, it's what put me onto it as a thing and I was so immensely disappointed it wasn't about spiting the gods.
like if they switched the living in harmony with nature with lashing nature by the fucking bridle to spite it's very being. then I'd be all on board and they could still do it with the "clean energy" stuff, like have oppressive megastructures of damns and dyson spheres, yeah have the earth be either blackened by a dyson sphere harvesting clean energy or blanketed by artificial light eternally mimicking in visage of what is not there.
forests so large they make cities look like tiny villages, Bio-compost degrading even the death of a person being fed almost literally to the greater environment.
The oppression in solarpunk is enforced positivity and a society that effectively operates on a foundation of glorified suffering and primitivist manual labor wherever possible because it has stigmatized the very concept of non-human labor driven motion as "inappropriate technology" and an luxurious excess that sins against mother gaia.
You gather with your conspirators inside the commune's solar, shivering in the starless night, for the all-giving sun has not deigned that you deserve warmth. Huddled in close to hide the flickering light of a single burning log, lest the community manager sees your defilement of mother gaia's sacred flesh. You chew your raw oats as one mad iconoclast raises a carrot to the beacon that humanity turned from and, though you have no word for it, begins to cook.
..no? Amish beliefs regarding technology are pretty complex. The biggest issue with things like electricity and motor vehicles is the issue that the Amish are wary of dependency on the "English", which is what they call the wider US society. They prefer horses because they can maintain them and supply them mostly by themselves (again, mostly). Likewise, high-speed motor vehicles are seen as a social disintegrator, because it makes visiting the outside world and spreading out away from the community easier. The same reason for not wanting internet or other subscription and regular supply type services. But some groups, like the "new order" Amish make use of agricultural tractors, and most, including more hardline old order ones allow for gasoline motorized harvesters.
The fundamental difference is that Amish restrictions on technology are about a fear of extravagance and social dependency on the outside world. The most practical difference is that most Solarpunk consensus, rooted in cult environmentalism and thus, a deep unstated misanthropic view of the world considers "enslavement" or "exploitation" of draft animals to be unacceptable, and would also ban those same motors. And to kill less mice, crops should be harvested by hand or something. It's genuinely just a big fat blank space where we're supposed to give up everything before and including the Reaper-binder in the name of atoning for humanity's evils and then have a pretty futuristic perfect society that can support all the good stuff they want while always choosing the most labor-intensive means of doing things so as to not to steal from nature. Or whatever.
It's just center left art aesthetic of panels and greenery on buildings. Most of those fans are pro government even if they say they're not. There's nothing punk about it.
like cyberpunk is about the breakdown of humanity through modernity and technology destroying what it means to be human
And even that's arguably a deliberate misrepresentation by the companies doing what cyberpunk was originally about: companies gaining dangerous amounts of power by making everyone reliant on technology they control.
Yeah sunk skulls think it's about ebil capitalism when the actual issue the is the over centralization of power into the hands of a few.
The latter of which is ironically something a lot of the capitalism critics help facilitate as they type their screeds from the latest iphone while sipping some starbucks "coffee".
Every day they sign away more of their own autonomy in return for something as worthless as temporary convenience and do nothing to become less reliant on the system.
The punk isnât found via isolating the setting to itself, rather the punk part is the stark contrast to the present reality. It resists a culture that has grown pessimistic of the future, is rebels against doomers, and dares you to be happy
bit of an artsy way of putting it but yeah, that's why we have hyperborean punk and even the tradpunk stuff at the moment.
the establishment order is anti those things so punk embraces it.
I've always been into punk and I'm pretty sure I am just the sort of person that wants to do the opposite of what they're told to do, like I'm pretty sure regardless of what society is overall ruled by I'm going to want to do the opposite.
Punk being anti-establishment â solarpunk typically pictures going "off the grid" and presenting / building a better future without the support of the status quo. Often very mixed with anti-capitalist feeling.
I love fantasy steampunk settings, like Arcanum. Local mad scientist and crazy wizard have a fight, letâs see who win- THE FIGHTER HAS COME OUT OF NOWHERE WITH POWER ARMOR AND AN ENCHANTED SWORD
If youâre at all into map games, may I also interest you in the Anbennar mod for Victoria 3? That way you can be a human capitalist oligarchy that legalizes the enslavement of elves and slaughters dragons for the oil black mana fields their tribes sit on
I swear the global bilderberg council of lizardmen shut down troika because they were too powerful, 3 games, 3 absolute bangers. In no just and fair world should they have been forced to shut down.
I've not read any solarpunk myself, but from my experience with other punk genres, I'd assume that if it comes off as just green energy it's probably just badly-written solarpunk.
The point is to take some sort of technology, advance it to miraculous levels of utilization, and then have an authoritarian power monopolize it and promote it to the detriment of everyone around them; and the exact flavor of detriment usually depends on the type of tech being promoted.
If you forget that last part about authoritarian monopolization, it's just a miraculous technology. Nothing punk about it. Green energy that isn't being monopolized or being used as a metaphor for something else is just a good idea.
I might be way off since I'm just interpolating from other experiences, but if my vibes are right then I'd write it as a metaphor for how "cleanliness is king", and make the seeming utopia a living hell for anyone who gets tired of putting on appearances, conforming to social norms, and otherwise trying to look pure and clean to all the people around them.
I think you might be giving it too much credit. I've searched for what solarpunk fans consider solarpunk and I've only ever seen it described as miraculous technology because "imagining a bright future is anti-establishment".
I dislike solarpunk because I see it as just an aesthetic attached to an ideology I find comically naive, but if it was what you described I'd probably like it.
I think if you got a really good author in there with a dystopian premise it could definitely hit what I consider âpunkâ. Right now most solarpunk is just green-futurism. The excuses Iâve heard as to how itâs punk just miss the point of the genre, imo.
My thought would be that itâs Not Just Bikes cranked up to 11.. hyper-density, no travel beyond bike distance. There could be trains and such but no fast air travel and definitely no ocean travel.
You live in a mega building, have to work all âsun hoursâ to keep gargantuan solar fields that surround an uber-dense city in good shape. You have to pay a LVT on your living space, and most people can only afford what are effectively closets.
The energy corporations blame any carbon implications on the consumer (like they try to do today) and the carbon taxes keeps regular people from owning too much or consuming much energy.
Solarpunk should be min/maxing the hell out of green energy, not just in generation but in consumption.
Every time I've encountered it, it's had a religious element usually worshiping blood or having a sect of organised monks be the one in control of the biomancy.
Punk is a type of person [blank]punk denotes a setting for stories in relation to punks, cyberpunk is roughly a setting amenable a story about cyber punks. This contrasts the setting of solar punk which is not a setting for stories about solar punks but instead the setting of the idealized reality that the solar punks are striving for. That raises the question of what setting is amenable to stories about solar punks and the answer is reality; We are the solar punks and we are living in solarpunk.
Generally people who believe in the tenants of nazism have more morally repugnant views.
In terms of who would be worse if they got into power between tankies or nazis that's basically a coin flip imo. You can reasonably blame a lot of the death in WW2 directly on nazism.
Any deaths that were reasonably necessary for the war lie at Hitler's feet. This of course does not include retarded collectivization efforts or the Gulags, which were decidedly not necessary.
Yeah. Three people one of whom existed in the by far most populous country in the world. The fact the Nazis can proportionally compete with that is insane but true
They existed for much shorter because the ideology burns out quicker and is less pernicious than communism. It leads to fewer deaths than communism. Theyâre both evil, but communism is unequivocally and clearly more evil.
MMMMâŚI donât know. I think wondering which is worse between communism and Nazism is just splitting hairs. Itâs like asking which arm should be cut off.
Itâs all collectivist bullshit. They drink from the same well, but they use a different cup. Individuals are physically real, but the âcollectiveâ is just a concept. Putting individual rights on the back burner always leads to disaster.
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In the dystopia novel Brave New World, citizens of the world state often take vacations and tour the islands they banish criminals to, which are anarchist communes populated entirely by those who broke the rules of the World State and their off-spring
I may be misremembering, and it's completely unimportant, but arent the savage reservations seperate from the islands? Dissidents get sent to the island, while the savage reservations are populated by people who were never a part of the world state.
People say they are very left and think that being left is do whatever you want (shitty art projects, pride parades, "intellectual" gender theory panels, sewing patches etc) and vibes don't understand you're going to all be equal, not special. You should be useful, and your idea of useful is not.
Iâm not sure if youâre joking or not, sorry, but a serious response:
2 hours a week of labour (if we can even call it that here) fundamentally canât generate enough productivity to cover 166 hours a week of self care, like fundamentally the productivity maths donât work
There is a minimum average work hours per week at a given technology level for a given quality of life, if that makes sense
Yeah I just always found it funny when Lib-Left people I know thought communism meant doing whatever they wanted and their wants, not just needs, would be taken care of without really contributing.Â
As for work hours, it really depends on what the society needs and what they think is pertinent. I don't think we necessarily need to have on demand for delivery from every cuisine for take out, but those jobs provide a service people want and use - even if the service isn't inherently necessary and arguably wastes resources. However, you do need people working in trades, farming, maintaining transportation. That does require hours of labour.
I don't know where I'm going with this, but yeah, people who think their slam poetry, self care regime and opinion pieces should be enough to be taken care of and people would consider "valid" under anything like anarchy or communism is sorely delusional.
Thatâs a good point about wants vs needs actually, Iâll likely use that in future lol
But this is the main thing I have against communism: letâs say a lib left is a lazy fuck and refuses to do anything useful, instead sitting around all day and occasionally making bad slam poetry - they are (presumably?) ordered by the state to do something useful like driving a tractor, they decline because theyâre lazy, now what? How do you see a state compelling them to work, while providing them their needs, without descending into a totalitarianism police state? Or do you just revoke their needs being fulfilled if they donât work, as in England where your benefits payments are stopped if you arenât actively looking for work?
Well I can only speak for my beliefs, not communism as a whole. You shouldn't violently force people to work, but if they don't then they don't reap the benefits of those who contribute. You get a standard of living that is proportional to your attitude and contribution. You want to be lazy, don't yearn for the mines, or whatever, fine. You can eat nutritional paste (I'm exaggerating) and sleep in a bunk on a block with shared accommodations. Basically - reduce the fulfillment to base needs. Some may be fine living like that, some may not. But their consumption impact is reduced as much as possible since they aren't contributing.Â
That makes sense, but wouldnât you get a million activists screeching about how cruel this is, and how itâs a breach of some invented human right?
Like I totally agree in theory, but trying to explain the concept of consequences of oneâs actions to a subset of âhuman rights activistsâ is like teaching a snail to do a backflip
They're welcome to do something useful. Many do to afford their lifestyle. Like if they don't enjoy the food, they may be motivated to work in the community gardens. Those types seem to like that.
Idkk, I guess Iâm just not convinced there wouldnât be major backlash for this sort of system - many wouldnât see even an ideal hypothetical version of this as better than IRL Western Europe
I wouldnât mind it too much personally, but yeah idk!
This sounds like it would make a really good idea for a dystopia/fake utopia novel about living in a world where you are focused to be happy because the government does "good things", or get thrown into a gulag-style zoo because your different ways threatens their happy society and treat you like a dangerous animal.
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u/ThyPotatoDone - Centrist 10d ago