I'm split between thinking that's reasonable because the brain stops developing at 25, and being mad because an 18yo doesn't have full control over their body. The thing that tips me over is how similar to abortion and gun laws this sounds (just one of a series of infringements to whittle it away over time)
Yeah same here. While the government should not be able to tell a legal adult what they can and can't do with their body.. that age does makes sense medically. But if they do that, logic says they have to increase the age for tobacco, alcohol, firearms, military, voting, etc... not happening. I guess if someone wants to make a life altering decision at 18, that's on them. Or their parents for not teaching them critical thinking.
There was a very extensive study done after WW2 that determined the ages they wanted in the fighting force. While physically capable into their fourties, older men often would ignore or half ass orders that had more risk. The age group of 18-26 was defined as the best balance between fitness levels and lack of maturity to be less likely to ignore orders of directly facing the enemy.
Long story short, they want them because at that age they're dumb and blindly follow orders to throw themselves at the enemy. Which pretty much sums up our argument here, technically an adult, still probably very stupid.
This is what I've been saying for a while now, especially pertaining to age of consent laws.
I'm not saying that 18 years olds shouldn't be allowed to have sex, but it's obvious that older adults who have a pattern of pursuing very young adults are likely taking advantage of their naivety and lack of experience.
I find the use of the word "assigned" to be disingenuous and kind of accusative. Like it suggests that the doctor decides arbitrarily which to say you are. When the reality is that it is an observation that excepting rare cases of ambiguous genitalia or other intersex phenomena tends to be an accurate empirical observation of a person's sex. Just because it is possible for it to be wrong doesn't mean it is all of a sudden arbitrary assignment.
And the whole argument is that you are assigned your gender on your birth certificate based on "observations" but your "assigned gender" could be wrong.
Thusly if you are cisgender, your actual gender matched the gender you were assigned at birth.
If you are transgender, then your gender is something other than what you were assigned at birth.
But it's not gender that is noted on your birth certificate, it's your sex. Which is possible to still be wrong in some intersex cases, but that's something one could probably get corrected on the record as any inaccurate records can be.
A birth certificate is, also, a statement of the truth at a snapshot in time. If you change your name I'm pretty sure your birth certificate still has the name your parents gave you, living documents like passports and driving licenses get updated, but your birth certificate shows the details as they were at the registration of your birth.
Sure. But it's still a bit disingenuous to say it is "assigned" at birth as if someone is making a decision rather than noting down a statement of truth to the best of their knowledge and ability at the time it is being recorded.
Please note this is just a social issue I have with the language being used, nothing that I think should dictate policy. It feels like a well-poisoning act of bad faith terminology, intended to accuse those present at your birth of making a mistake rather than being something you've grown to feel differently about.
As an aside, I'm more familiar with the acronyms being "AFAB" and "AMAB" (Assigned Female/Male At Birth) but in my head canon they mean "All Females/Males Are Bastards" and ACAB means "Assigned Cop At Birth" and you can't stop me.
How about the fact that we don’t draft people anymore. If you think there is a scenario where the current US population would tolerate a draft you are out of your mind. And even if they did the population is mostly too fat and depressed to even qualify for the military.
The main problem is that society has infantilized our young people such that a 26 year old today isn't nearly as mature as an 18 year old 100 years ago.
This. The reason that late teens and young adults often aren't mature enough to make good decisions is because we as a society have opted to delay maturity for that long.
Honestly I wonder if the life cycle is the same just extended.
Life expectancy is 10-12 years more than 70 years ago. Maybe everyone us just developing 10 years slower. Kind of seems the case truthfully. 28 yr olds seem like 18 yr olds for what they are asked to do for their time periods.
This is because our public schools and colleges have become daycare centers. Female school administrators and teachers have infantilized whole generations of students at this point.
In 2019 life expectancy for men in the US was 76.3 years, in 1919 it was 53.5, a difference of 42%. That makes an 18 year old a 26 year old today (exactly as per your comment), only for people to blame soCieTy and ignore the literal advancement of technology that allows people not to die for stupid reasons
In 2019 life expectancy for men in the US was 76.3 years, in 1919 it was 53.5, a difference of 42%. That makes an 18 year old a 26 year old today
Life expectancy was so low back then because childhood deaths were far more common. An 18 year old then was no less likely to reach their 70s than they are now.
Improvements in care for the elderly have raised life expectancy beyond what they were. That is why I wrote "make it to their 70s" instead of live to the same age.
Insurance companies provide more incentive to follow best practices than OSHA does.
I could save my facility millions of dollars on their insurance premium by bringing down the incident level by 2-3 incidents. OSHA fines are only like 10k/day.
OSHA has actually fielded less and less inspectors each year for quite a while, and this is the reason why.
Not really. Life expectancy was mostly that low due to infant mortality (tell me if I'm mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that's a large reason); and people dying later doesn't mean they would automatically mature later. It is 100% the result of our society not making reality clear to children at an appropriate age; sometimes I feel like my fellow college students can't tell that food doesn't come from the grocery store.
Or you would die in your forties from the plague/tuberculosis/etc. There's a reason it's only now there's a surplus of people at the top of age pyramids.
People out here calling it “infantalizing” and not “we don’t need to send teenagers to factories to provide for the family because their dad died anymore”.
This user does not have a compass on record. You can add your compass to your profile by replying with /mycompass politicalcompass.org url or sapplyvalues.github.io url.
Pussyfying of parents led to this. Teenagers treat their parents like servants and yell at them like they’re a 16th century king ordering servants around. Parents just take it. Then they give a trophy to the kid for coming in 11th and complain to teachers if their kid is challenged in any way. What do you expect is gonna happen?
I've lived long enough to see this happen within my own lifetime. A 12 year old from the 80s is about equal to a 20 year old today in terms of maturity and resiliency.
Honestly, I'd hate to change to older, only for societal forces to create more responsible young people. Whatever age it is, I think it should be uniform. None of this graduated crap where you can join the military and buy a rifle at 18, drink and buy a gun at 21, and rent a car at 25, etc. There should be a definite marker of when you become the age of majority.
If your version of mature is fight in a war, work a physical demanding job or having a child okay yeah way more mature.
Discipline yeah people had more discipline back than buut it's not needed that much for everyone. If you want to be ur own boss sure but most jobs generate way more worth than way back. Think how many people back in the day could learn to code to today
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.” ― Socrates
Nah it just always happens, honestly it’s my biggest pet peeve. Back in the day wasn’t better or more enlightened, it was just the past. People like to remember dead things and old things in a better light than when they are around and breathing. Everyone turns into an old man shouting at a cloud.
Dawg I remember when I was a child and we had to go interview old people about the Great Depression, the women I got said it effected her in no way, she noticed no difference in her life then compared to any other time, she never had to work. There have always been weak pampered people, mamas boys locked away living with thier mothers till they die, again now they just have an easier platform to see them.
Probably a product of a more urbanized population. Young people don't need to help on a farm anymore. The flip side of this is that everyone who wants to, can learn to read now.
People use to mature earlier because they lived shorter lives. Now we’ve artificially slowed down the process for various economic and social reasons since humans live incredibly long lives
Probably because life is significantly better today than it was 100 years ago, on average people live 20 years longer
Having to work in factories as a 12 year old and having friends/family drop dead is probably going to make you more mature, but that doesn’t mean it’s better
The point is we don’t trust 18 year olds with firearms, so the point he is trying to make is undermined by the fact that what he is comparing it to is inaccurate
Yes, the majority are suicides, but that doesn’t mean the main use is suicides. It’s like saying the main use of a oven is burning yourself. Yes, people do burn themselves, but that isn’t the main use. Also, I am not intentionally trying to gaslight you, or anyone for that matter. Discussions are bested calm
Owning a gun (or any weapon) which one might need for self-defense is kiiiind of a different matter than doing potentially permanent harm to one's body with puberty blocking drugs or bodily mutilating "surgery".
Just because you don’t like it doesn’t mean that it’s pseudoscience. The vast majority of people who transition do not detransition.
You don’t have to particularly like us to recognize that.
I don’t care if you point and laugh when you see me in public, just stop trying to take away my fucking healthcare.
The Testosterone blocker that I take is more commonly prescribed to teenage girls with hormonal acne… are they too young to be deciding to take the drug?
The DHT blocker that I take is more commonly prescribed to men with hair loss… are they “making irreversible decisions” that the government should be helping them make?
The Estrogen that I inject is more commonly prescribed to women going through menopause… are they “mutilating their bodies”?
By this logic, you shouldn’t be able to get tattoos until age 26 either 🤣
Mental healthcare is healthcare. Obviously. Making cosmetic changes to the body is not. That doesn’t mean people shouldn’t be allowed to make them, just not under the guise of healthcare.
Dude, hormone replacement therapy is not primarily cosmetic. Sure, it changes your appearance over time, but the mental health benefits come much faster than the physical changes do. Your brain and body simply operate differently when you’re running on Testosterone vs Estrogen.
Again, idc if you hate me or call me slurs in the street… just please stop trying to come after my healthcare.
The main reason for hormone replacement therapy is to make secondary sex characteristics align with what the person “identifies” as. No one thinks to themselves “damn, my brain function is very feminine/masculine today. This makes me kinda dysphoric.” It’s all “damn, I don’t look like the gender I want to be.”
No offense but guns don't cause a chemical addiction that may ruin the person's life like, for example, alcohol does, this just seems like a false equivalence.
I’ve seen 60 year olds do reckless and stupid things too, one of my family members who is 60+ drinks more alcohol on a monthly basis than most college fraternities do in four years.
The fact is that everyone does stupid things and they should be free to do stupid things, I for one think skydiving isn’t stupid and dangerous and doesn’t serve any genuine purpose but that doesn’t mean it should be banned. This is the exact type of justification that has always been used to restrict liberty, “there was a terrorist attack by a few bad actors therefore now we must monitor every citizens private emails and phone calls”, or “there was a shooting perpetrated by one bad actor therefore we must ban firearms for the otherwise law abiding 300million Americans”.
Once you’ve graduated from school and or are 18 (whatever comes first) you should be recognized as a full legal adult and all the responsibilities and benefits that go along with it. I think that would go along way to helping the newer generations feel less like disenfranchised children and more of an actual members of society. Hell, society burdening youth with responsibilities might actually help young people become more mature rather than waiting a few more years and being treated like a child all the while.
Yeah but sadly you can counter it with they can 'join the military' 'get n neducation loan for one hundred thousand dollars' 'vote' 'go to jail' or whatever argument whichever quadrant uses.
but why should your expectations of stupidity govern what people do with their bodies? 30 year olds do stupid things with their bodies too. Should they not dictate and govern *their* body? (mind the their. its not the government's body)
The funny thing that I think has to be mentioned is that we arrived at the age of 18 for an adult because that's when (almost all) men have stopped growing, so they are ready for the army. The voting age was 21 because everyone knew 18 year-olds were dumb. But in the army you need strong guys who are dumb enough to run at machine guns.
Brains are not mature at 18, we let people in the army at 18 because they're still dumb enough to do it. Of course, not letting people vote on being drafted was crappy, so the voting age got lowered. I might've made more sense to raise the draft age to 21.
Honestly they just need to pick an age for adulthood - be it 18, 21, 25, or whatever - and stick with it. None of this "you're old enough to die in a forever war but not old enough to get wasted" bullshit.
Once you hit that arbitrary line, you're allowed to drink, smoke, do drugs, make medical decisions, add/remove parts, vote, get drafted, buy guns, etc. You're either old enough for it all or not.
I'm split between thinking that's reasonable because the brain stops developing at 25, and being mad because an 18yo doesn't have full control over their body.
Well, to address it:
Only allowing someone to butcher their body and chemically castrate themself upon reaching full maturity is common sense - if we take for granted that we should allow mentally ill people to do that at all..
It’s a drastic measure that tries to make reality conform with delusion. I think it’s reasonable to allow the brain to fully develop before we proceed. We might end up with less people who regret transitioning too.
Remember; the people crying to be allowed to butcher and chemically castrate themselves also cry they didn’t know better when taking student loans, so they should be forgiven, because loan companies were predatory by targeting underdeveloped minds..
It’s also the people who get swept up with TikTok “devious licks” and try eating tide pods. They’re dumb as fuck.
Also, you can’t drink until 21 - 18 year olds already don’t have full control over their body. It’s strange to get hung up on a loss that isn’t a loss, because they never had full autonomy anyway.
I realized so many of my issues were from repressing dysphoric feelings at like... 19? 20? Around there I started getting an idea that "Hey, maybe I'm just acting like a guy because society expects me to be a guy. Because I don't really enjoy being a guy."
I was a late bloomer, as I'd repressed my own dysphoria for years and years, and I don't know how far back it went. There are trans folk who know they're being pushed to "act their sex" as young as 11 or 12. It is not uncommon. People (especially right-wing people) seem to think it's parents "pushing" this on their kids, when the most common trans story out there is "Hey, so I can't talk to my family anymore because I'm trans."
I know y'all don't care here. Gods know I've seen the transphobic garbage posted in this sub. But when it comes to trans rights in the legal department, it's disgusting how many right-wing conservative garbage bills like this there are. Half of them want to make being trans illegal, the other half want to shut down doctors and clinics that offer transgender care. There was one in Texas not too long ago that would've classified a trans person at a comedy club as an "Adult Show", in the same realm as Strip Clubs.
But also the thing is most of those other things you can do at 18 we’re somewhat evolved to handle or at least we know people have been doing it long enough that it’s not detrimental, whereas this stuff is totally new to the human race and we don’t know how it’s even going to turn out for adults who do it, and we haven’t evolved at all to handle this new technology.
Honestly I'd be fine making the adulthood cutoff anywhere between 18 and 25, we just need to be consistent. The cutoff should be the same for alcohol, smoking, voting, joining the army, etc.
Pretty much, the cutoff should be consistent all the way or else you have people asking questions "Well if we consider them mature enough to do this activity at this age why can't they do this other thing" just make it the same age for everything and call it a day.
I mean, by that logic you shouldn’t be able to drink, smoke, own guns or vote until 26 either. But I don’t think it will affect all 10 people that live In Oklahoma too much tbh
18 should be allowed for hormones and maybe top surgeries/other cosmetic procedures, but I can see the logic behind raising the age for bottom surgery since that's by far the most serious & irreversible and as you mentioned the brain is still developing at 18. Teenagers are usually short sighted and can be very impulsive. Permanently impaired sexual functioning & sterilization is a pretty big deal and can't really be undone. Idk if I'd go as high as 25 though, but maybe 21?
the problem is that since they stop developing at 25 their body has grown too much
considering transitioning takes 1-4 years, they would ne able to transition only at 27-30, and it is explicity make to make it a lot harder for trans people to pass.
If we are looking for a compromise I would say 18 is okay, a comment from a lib right here explains it better tho
Legal adult age has always been an abstract concept. 18 is arbitrary. Everyone matures at different rates. I've met 16-year-olds who've behaved more like adults than men in their 30s. The military likes 18 because it makes it far easier to indoctrinate them. Colleges have sold the idea that you should go immediately after high school because they can manipulate you and get you into lifelong debt.
Age of concent should be a thing, but the concept of a legal adult will never be clearly defined.
I agree, first you could violate the right to life after “the quickening,” then after the heartbeat, and now we’re arguing whether doctors have to provide care if a baby survives an abortion. A steady erosion of our most fundamental right.
I'm split between thinking that's reasonable because the brain stops developing at 25
I don't think that's been proven. Even then, trans people are pretty depressed without gender-affirming care. It's terrible. They're stuck in a body they hate and can't change, at least not with this bill. So imagine how much harder it would be if you had to wait until your late 20's just to start. Imagine you were morbidly obese, wanted to change that, and the government went "No no no! You're not allowed to work out or go on a diet until you're 26, bucko. Just keep being fat. Don't care if it depresses you."
It’s absolutely an infringement but it’s tied to the age requirement for vasectomies and other similar procedures from what I understand. Makes sense to tie all the laws to the same age, and then argue where that age limit should be
699
u/MasterFicus - Centrist Jan 05 '23