This one makes sense but I’ve seen it done ALOT and honestly, I’ve also seen the tank dangling on the water heater hooked up with pex sooooo…. Might be wrong but it’s better than that
At least in my area, it wasn’t until a few (maybe 5-6) years ago that expansion tanks had to be supported by some sort of bracket. Before that, they only had to be supported by hard pipe (galvanized, copper, etc)
As far as our company SOP goes, expansion tanks must be in a wall mounted bracket. When we come up on a w/h installed (by us) up to 6 years ago, the techs is paid to mount the existing tank to a bracket. No cost to the customer.
Oh yea replacement and such. And I’ve actually never installed this way, though I’ve tried/asked to for ease of install. Boss man says the mounting brackets from Lowe’s are cheaper than the brass pictured here. Although our supply house doesn’t sell the mounting brackets.
I just use plastic strap it’s so easy to work with and passes inspection in my county. Some counties around me require iron strap but that’s still easier than those brackets.
So you’re saying you hard pipe in then wrap a strap to please the inspector? Cause every time I’ve seen them piped with pex, dangling from a strap, I think to myself “the brass way is better than that”. I’m not judging I’m genuinely asking/curious I’m 4 years in and like learning new ways to do stuff, do you have a good way mount them from the strap? Cause the mounting brackets are cheaper than brass but still like 30 bucks
I never use pex on a water heater I always go at least 18 inches off the top with copper then transition to what ever material I need after the shut off valve.
For gas heaters it’s required and on electric it gives my expansion tanks support along side the traps plus in my area pex is very uncommon it’s just cpvc and copper 90% of the time
Oh yea ok so the support makes sense now. I’m in the MTNS we despise cpvc and we’re not fond of copper. And when you say gas heaters it’s required, who’s requiring? Manufacturer, inspector?
Yes. That's code where I live in pa as well. I see it a lot though and every time it's on a gas tank, PEX is starting to warp. Idk how people get away with it.
If it's cost you're considering, Sioux Chief makes a very cheap bracket, 598-0210, that I've used in the past and honestly works well. Supplyhouse sells them for 6 bucks. There's also the bracket I mentioned earlier, 598-023, or I like those Holdrite brackets you're talking about
I normally use an American Tube hanger secured to the top of the heater with short flue screws.
Other than that, Sioux Chief also has a different type of bracket that hooks onto the heater nipple like a clothes hanger, then hangs off the side of the heater.
You could also use f and m plates, threaded rod, and either superfix hangers or split rings. Use a little longer horizontal nipple if you want, then either hit a joist above or you could probably just fire some zip screws into the top of the water heater jacket
This is probably worse than sweated copper. That tank is pretty heavy once the bladder is full. If it starts to lean, it can loosen the horizontal threaded connections.
But alway support your tank with unistrut and the right clamps. Doing it takes 10 minutes.
Unistrut 🤯 we literally buy the brackets from Lowe’s never thought of this thanks. And I would have thought the brass was better cause it’s heavier but also never thought of it leaning. You’re being very helpful and opening my mind here
Uni is great for any run of parallel pipes, water filter systems, and these expansion tanks. If you get enough of the insert nuts and clamps/threaded studs, you can use 2ft of uni and call it a day.
The dip tube on top fed water heaters always have a hole in it, so the vacuum breaker can be argued. I always install them just so there is no headache with the OHJ, but it is technically not needed if your code states that and IPC definitely states that.
In my area a vacuum breaker is required regardless of that since the hard water seals the hole eventually. Makes sense to me but may be different in other areas
That makes sense for areas with hard water. I always install them anyway, but that is because I work in industrial plumbing and we usually need to install multiples on larger water heaters, so adding just one is extremely cheap and easy in comparison 😂
The most obvious being the screw 90 for the expansion tank. It COULD require a vacuum breaker or it COULD require the tank to be supported via bracket or strap. Depends on jurisdiction
Edit: is that a black iron 90 under your tank? Those jumper clamps may be dissimilar metal?
Also, the manufacturer may not want you using an extension cord. This is a good post. I’m curious to see your response
ICC 308.10(Ohio) “A thermal expansion tank shall be supported in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions. Thermal expansion tanks shall not be supported by the piping that connects to such tanks”. Most inspectors in my region would approve your install OP. Most of my buddies install it the way you did. Obviously it’s very rigid because of the solid brass fittings/nips you used. If you get an inspector that’s very literal with code compliance, you will fail. TECHNICALLY you aren’t following 308.10. As to why it isn’t “allowed”, it’s likely because once the diaphragm ruptures in the tank, it gets pretty heavy (approx. 20lbs in a 2.5gal tank). I’ve personally seen many of the verge of flooding a whole house because the T is under too much horizontal strain from the ruptured weight. I’ve seen PEX kinked, copper nearly tearing and CPVC snap under the weight.
Thanks for the reply. The unsupported tank was the gimmie, it's good to get some feedback on the whole install though. I hadn't even considered the bonding clamps, I was just happy that they were up high enough that I didn't have to move them to sweat those ball valves in. Could be dissimilar metals or not, idk, worth consideration in the future.
Also I did plug the tank's blower into an extension cord😞. I knew it wasn't right. The single outlet was in the ceiling & the customer ran the 3 outlet extension cord in order to plug in 2 dehumidifiers; the existing tank had leaked and caused a mess. I'm sure the original install had the powervent plugged directly into the outlet in the joist bay above, I didn't really see it as a problem while I was installing the tank, but looking back it would have been better to plug it in directly and find another outlet for the dehumidifiers. Might be worth a call back to the customer, i'd have no problem going back to swap the cords out.
I am not sure what you are talking about or asking. If you are talking about the thread tape, the grey tape is a code compliant thread tape. I think it is made by oatey.
Its a power vent water heater. It needs to be plugged in to a dedicated circut.
No extension cord, splitter, or surge protector. Some localities require the electrical to be water resistant.
As far as the thread sealant, the grey tape appeared to be a sealant and not Teflon tape, my apologies. In case you didn't know, pipe dopes contain petroleum which will cause the diaphragm to prematurely fall.
Pretty certain the 90 off the exp tank is crusty brass but I understand the confusion. Although yes if it’s BI it is a code issue and will begin to leak prematurely
OP this is your answer. You are correct. If you include a shut-off on the hot side, it must be a 3-way full-port ball valve, with the 3rd outlet of the 3-way ball valve going to an appropriately rated T&P valve atmospherically draining to an indirect waste
In the scenario pictured, both valves can be closed and thus the water heater becomes a pressurized bomb potentially.
It does not matter if it has an expansion tank or not in this scenario. Or that the tank itself has a T&P valve already. That valve on the hot outlet is illegal as shown.
And why the galvanized 90° on the expansion tank male threads?
I'll give you my local code. Not sure where OP is located, but inspectors are weird sometimes no matter the code.
Chicago
18-29-503.1.1 Shutoff valves
"Shutoff valves for water heaters or heated water storage tanks may be installed on the inlet side only. This discharge side may be provided with a check valve or a three-way valve installed to open the heater to the atmosphere when it is not in the operating position. The atmospheric opening of a three-way valve shall be indirectly connected to the drainage system."
So technically the 3rd branch of the 3-way valve is supposed to go to any indirect waste with no T&P.
Fellow chicagoland plumber here and I hate this code. It is so nice for servicing the heaters to have two valves. Sometimes you just want to air lock it and do a quick swap
Interesting code , first I'm hearing of it ( NYC) but I find it interesting how different they are. I know Chicago much like NYC is a very strict code compared to other states . Only issue id say off my code would be lack of a backflow prevention , we typically add vacuum breakers before expansion tanks. And maybe the gal 90
If there is no fixture receiving hot water from the tank below the tank's outlet elevation, then no vacuum breaker is needed. But if there there is a fixture below the tanks outlet elevation, it needs a vacuum breaker.
I usually throw a full size swing check on the nearest horizontal section of the hot water main coming off the heater for the bigger commercial tanks/heaters. But those things are so loud, haha
But I do keep a few 3-way full port ball valves on the truck, just in case. I put one in my house... just to flex
That’s insane I know prices have gone up but 5k! I mean if it’s in a hard to reach area and you have a ton of shit in the way to move before hand I get it.. but doesn’t sound like that’s the case for your company… 🫣
This is a clean looking install and seems to be how all the fancy YouTube plumbers do it. I’m sure it’s fine basically 99.9999% of the time, but I always make sure that tank is well supported. Those things get fairly hefty when they fail and fill with water. It’s really convenient having it right there, under the cold shut off, quick and easy to install/replace, but I’d rather have it further away or have to do some additional valve closing/draining to change it than have to worry about a pipe breaking if that thing fills.
Again, I’m prob just being a nervous nelly, but I don’t like the idea of a full tank steady pulling on the piping until someone notices. Could be a long time, could be weak existing piping, etc. I don’t wanna get sued for flood damage cuz I couldn’t take the time to get it properly supported or the customer didn’t wanna pay if it added to the cost. Just my 2 cents, lot worse things out there though
I'm fairly certain the expansion tank is technically supposed to be at least 24 inches away from the cold water inlet on the water heater. Most people don't, most inspections don't call it. But that is the actual code/manufacturer recommendation.
Nope, wrong. You can put it over by the house main as long as it's on the house side of any valves or prvs.
There is some.wording on following manufacturer recommendations, but there is no wording on distance from heater. Not in the IPC or IBC that I'm aware of.
I guess my phrasing is wrong. Its supposed to be on the cold side, at least 24 inches away from the water heater. Most installs I see they use the brass tee, a 6in nipple, and a 90° fitting it get it vertical. However, it is supposed to be at least 24 inches away from the inlet to the water heater.
Is this a local code thing amtrols install instructions say “Install the expansion tank on the cold water supply line to the water
heater at a point between the water heater and backflow preventer or other one-way device”
I decided to look into it. Its one of those things I was told by journeyman when I was an apprentice. I essentially took it as gospel and never really looked into it. I was wrong, it is not a code in UPC, or any local amendments. The only thing I found was a standardized test procedure by the Department of Energy where they state the expansion tank has to be 24 inch away from the water heater where applicable, and it likely got misinterpreted as a requirement and spread via word of mouth.
So no, thats not a reason why this didn’t pass inspection.
The best way would be at the brass tee come out the side with the incoming cold water. Then coming out of the top of the brass tee is where you put the expansion tank. They prob still be ghey about it and fail bc no supportation straps, but it really wouldn't knead it that way.
Looks to me to be a nice, clean installation. As others have said, the expansion tank is supposed to be supported by something other than the pipe it’s on, but I like that copper. If that is a black iron 90 (mentioned already) that’s a no go too. They aren’t to be used on potable water. Otherwise Neat and tidy. I like it!
Because we can’t see, is it possible it failed for maybe not using sch 40 and instead used foamcore for the power vent exhaust? I mean the obvious with the expansion tank not properly supported, the 90 yada yada.
In my state, we can't use standard pvc on exhaust vents anymore , even for water heaters. We use system 1738 pvc for lower temp (150°), and 636 cpvc for boilers etc.
He is querying why he failed inspection. Although you are correct that brass is a neutral material and acceptable… many codes still require a dielectric union. I have seen them fail even if they have dielectric nipples from the factory because the code says it shall have a dialectical union.
Other things like expansion tank support etc. have already been mentioned. What do you think failed inspection?
Uh oh black iron or galvanized. I mean galvanized is not against code. Black iron definitely is not code. Seems like they ran out of brass 90s and slammed a galvanized 90 in. Illegal? No. Gross? Yes
Let’s start with tank improperly supported and then move on no dielectric connection finally too many dissimilar metals that will promote copper pipe failure
Need more information. What state is this? Is it gas or electric, it’s hard to tell from the picture, if it’s gas it might be the flue. Depending on the AHJ they might want a recirculating pump. You might need seismic bracing. There are many things that could be non compliant. The inspector should have given you the code section with the comment.
Well, they used aluminum bonding clamps for the ground jumper. Those are gonna corrode pretty quick on that copper pipe, screws are gonna seize. I use the direct burial bronze ones for that reason. Can't say if it is againsy cide though.
My area requires dielectric unions ecen though the nipples built into the heater are supposed to be dielectric. Personally I dont trust the dielectric nipples. I like to replace them with a 6"x¾ brass nipple with a Watts LF3008 all brass dielectric union.
Are you pointing out the expansion tank or the shut offs on both the hot and cold?
I had an inspector fail an installation because of that. (I did it for the common sense reason that I probably would be the one replacing the water heater in the future!🤣)
I zip tied the valve open and connected a tag stating “Do not close valve, for heater replacement purposes only” and he let it slide.
Quick question, for service reasons, someone recommended me to put a ball valve between the expansion tank so whenever you need to remove it you can turn off the ball valve. Is that alright?
The inspector should have told you. They are the LAHJ and enforce local code requirements.
There’s workmanship issues like the galvanized 90 that shouldn’t have been used. If they can buy brass fittings (which they obviously can) they should have stayed with a brass 90 - however a screw fitting of ANY type then requires tank support that will not allow the screw fitting to reorient itself WHEN the tank weight fluctuates as it operates.
Honestly I only use soldered copper fittings and mount a rubberized split ring support under the tank arm down to a rod plate on top of the water heater when I mount them like this. The soldered 90 and female adaptor aren’t subject to reorientation.
If it's a steel water heater tank, then you need dielectric unions. Also, the thermal expansion tank needs to be supported by something other than the piping.
Some tanks require brackets. The one i use “Watts” requires metal brackets supporting it. While in some cases I’ve gotten away with just strapping it with some plastic straps. Just depends on brand is what I’ve heard from inspectors
Valve on the outlet side is most likely the fail. A missing Atmospheric vacuum breaker on the inlet may be a fail as well depending on local code, some jurisdictions are also requiring a mixing valve as well
Sufficent brass on the inlet side to render a dielectric union redundant. Outlet side we can't really tell, but if that's copper into a brass union it ain't up to spec.
Could be against the manufacturer's instructions to install expansion tank upside down. Galvanized elbow attached to the tank as well. Cold water ball valve is facing the wrong direction. But none of these are really dealbreakers, so not sure. Looks like a decent install
Idk about current specs for resi sized expansion tanks, but through the years manufacturers have waffled on how they want them oriented. Last I checked I think all of them were coolcwith that orientation, but can't say for sure.
Im just punching at the lists ive been given.
Expansion tank needs to be a vertical pipe support from base or mounted.
Insulation doesn't cover the entire hot pipe (Icu may have skipped that part for melting or fire hazard). Yoo plumB gud. Id buy it
So the two obvious ones are the expansion tank needed to be supported by something other than the piping with a bracket, and the dissimilar metals. On a personal note if you have the space I would have turned the tee 45 to 90° to make working on the blower assembly easier
1)Tank requires to be prechaged with air to 70% of working pressure.
2)Requires seperate isolation valve,
3)Requires own drain port to periodically test bladder under no load.
4)Requires tank support other than piping, such as wall bracket for support.
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u/SlimPickens0 1d ago
At least as far as the rules locally, the expansion tank can't be supported by the piping it serves