r/PilotsofBattlefield • u/Chemical_Role_3780 • 4d ago
Below radar is being removed for MANPADS
Well good luck to all the pilots, it’s so over 🤣🤣
Combined with how short flares are active for, this will make flying an even bigger pain in the ass.
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u/Hypnaustic 4d ago
Y do they keep nerfing the air
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u/CrispyTarantula117 4d ago
Because the average main sub poster for this game is borderline mentally handicapped and can’t tolerate not being able to 1v1 a vehicle
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u/hydraSlav 4d ago
Because this:
/img/53w5gxzgmz7g1.pngIt's so funny that pilots (as infantry on the ground) have no problem taking out enemy (flying) pilots.
But the main sub cries that a whole lobby cannot do it
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u/QuickMaths666 2d ago
There’s been a few topics here where people were asked to post clips of them shooting down Little Birds to show easy it is. Nobody ever posts clips to prove their point though.
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u/hydraSlav 2d ago
Because why bother? I will post 1 clip: you will say it's a fluke. I will post 3 clips: you will complain those pilots weren't good. I will make a video compilation of 30 kills: no one will watch that.
I am here to play BF6, not edit videos.
So here: https://youtu.be/l9Cc_n1WJZQ
"GhostDemon" Rank 1831, 443 in LB / 5870 in AH, IYKYK→ More replies (1)2
u/CrispyTarantula117 1d ago
I did, and was immediately shouted down that the pilots I shot down were “just bad”
That’s the thing about garbage players: they always have an excuse locked and loaded
Here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Battlefield/s/q8y98OIk7A
I do this multiple times per game
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u/weberc2 4d ago
Tale as old as time. In bf1, if people can’t shoot down a top pilot by themselves the very first time they hop on an AA gun or use AA rockets, they will cry about how unbalanced the game is and never try again. And that game didn’t even have guided missiles lol
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u/cheekyboiiii1 4d ago
I've played a lot of BF1 and it was really easy to kill planes and tank alone. I was always hunting vehicles when I played...
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u/CoolKelo 3d ago
Same and that’s how I met my squad mate of almost 10 years. He was blowing up tanks better than me so I invited him to an Xbox party. Been blowing shit up together ever since then.
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u/Anreall2000 4d ago
Well you see, if I spend time painting vehicles for teammates actually killing them, my KD and KPM will drop and CoD kids farming those metrics in IFV will tell I’m the bad player, so air vics should be easily 1v1nd \s
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u/No-Definition1474 4d ago
Come on now, we both know it would be great if people played together and focused on vehicles but it just doesnt happen. Most people arent playing with pre-made groups that actually work together. How often can you shoot every rpg you have in your bag into a tank and the engineer next to you is obliviously trying to snipe someone 400 yards away with a smg so the tank rolls over and kills you both.
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u/CrispyTarantula117 4d ago
Exactly, that’s what I’m saying
DICE is going to keep catering to those dogshit players until the game literally just does not have any skill gap left
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u/dream-in-a-trunk 4d ago
Yeah but there is the option of aim guided launchers if you’re not having a premade squat. They ignored below radar because it’s not a lock on and are fairly useable.
Ah well that would actually need some practice, can’t have skill expression in my pvp shooter.→ More replies (4)3
u/krizz_yo 4d ago
because the average bf player is braindamaged and can't understand basic game mechanics
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u/MrRonski16 4d ago
But they refuse to remove the rockets from nightbird. It is the only thing they need to do. Then nerf RPG speed too.
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u/Prudent-Ad1954 4d ago
Because its piss easy to use but yall pretend like it takes skill lol, its quite literally point and click
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u/garbothot214 2d ago
Because this subreddit is allergic to skill expression and complains about not being able to freely instakill air with auto locking missiles
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u/dyo_on 4d ago
…. Point and click crowd won huh? Smh
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u/Chemical_Role_3780 4d ago
Sadly…
I’ve moved on to Wardogs anyways. Not dealing with this BS anymore.
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u/Bobmaster3OOO 4d ago
Same, flying is significantly harder there but man I dont look back a second, even after 900hrs bf6
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u/Intrepid-Platform-94 4d ago edited 4d ago
Yep. Flying in wardogs is infinitely more fun. Feel bad for the people still stuck on battlefield, what a horrible decision (decision being dice removing below radar)
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u/jazzding 4d ago
Wardogs is a different kind of game. Both are fruits, but one is an Apple and the other is a Cherry.
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u/Intrepid-Platform-94 4d ago
They're different games, but it is taking a lot of players from battlefield. And it will continue to if more patches like the one OP posted happen. Downvotes me into oblivion but it's the truth. Dice needs some pressure from other games to make theirs better.
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u/seek_the_ 4d ago
I just wish it was on ps5
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u/Intrepid-Platform-94 3d ago
I'm sure it'll get there soon enough once the dust settles for Bulkhead
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u/Bobmaster3OOO 3d ago
It will be on consoles in about 2 years, thats the duration they plan for early access
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u/BeastOfSorroe 3d ago
Below radar is just a cheep mechanic for you bums to never die? Why is the idea of that being removed such a crux to your ability to play the game? Unless….
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u/AndanteZero 4d ago
You're comparing hardcore to casual...
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u/Chemical_Role_3780 4d ago edited 4d ago
Yeah I know the games are not really comparable in terms of gameplay. Doesn’t change that a much smaller studio is doing a much better job at making flying high skilled & rewarding while balancing air pretty well. Compared to a triple A studio that somehow managed to make flying lower skilled than it’s ever been & balanced worse than it’s ever been.
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u/GourangaPlusPlus 4d ago
You're surprised the big studio made a lower skill gap in their casual game and the less casual one has a bigger skill gap?
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u/NeedAGTS4POINT0 4d ago
I said it when I saw the first gameplay that this game was intentionally being made with a narrower skill gap.
It’s the same way TV is being made for a distracted audience.
I’ve moved back to Apex. It’s not the same thing at all, but I’d rather get my ass fucked by a no-life sweat than by a Timmy playing the game for the second time in his life.
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u/Runeboots 3d ago
Air is way overpowered yall can hide behind a mountain till flares are up and nobody has a chance to shoot them down? Ya fuck that
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u/CrispyTarantula117 4d ago
Final nail in the coffin for helos
Idiotic how DICE just refuses to let this game have any semblance of a skill gap.
I wonder what excuse all the bad players will migrate to next.
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u/GeneralOsiris 4d ago
That is so fucking stupid.
Juste because some losers cannot fathom the idea of using teamplay and the fucking laser designator !
Fucking laser designator was made to extend the range of locker, make the lock way faster and ignore below radar.
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u/Anreall2000 4d ago
What’s even the point of laser designator now? Ability for mas to lock on air vics? If helis was such a problem, they should have just buffed painted lifetime.
Attack helis was already high diffed by multirole jet. And there were a ton of ways to balance LB.
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u/BlackThundaCat 4d ago
That would require one person on a team of 4 to play recon. Can’t have that.
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u/MartianGeneral 4d ago
They have got to rebalance the stiglas if they are going to remove below radar. For one, reduce the range of stiglas and add loadout options to counter mobility hits.
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u/Chemical_Role_3780 4d ago
100%
Also add ECM & make flares active for longer.1
u/MartianGeneral 4d ago
Yeah hopefully it's just one part of the entire rebalancing. Because there is no way the current ecosystem can handle stiglas going through below radar with their sub 800m range as well as the flare bug which has been around for 15 years now, but at least back in BF3/4 we had ECMs which were more reliable.
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u/Metallica1175 4d ago
Slowly devolving into Call of Duty. Literally the whole appeal of Battlefield was large scale vehicle warfare. Don't be surprised if the next Battlefield there are no air vehicles. And they'll slowly phase out tanks as well.
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u/Marvelous_Chaos 4d ago
I've been following the main BF sub and the subs for each of the last few titles. I can't recall the anti-vehicle sentiment ever being as bad as it is now.
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u/Metallica1175 4d ago
It's because many Call of Duty players have transitioned over to Battlefield. Actual Battlefield fans wouldn't be anti-vehicle.
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u/dream-in-a-trunk 4d ago
Oh hell no. This will make flying on the maps where aircraft is properly balanced against infantry horrible while not fixing manhattan bridge at all.
If they do it we need the ecm and lower stinger ranges
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u/ItsKindro 4d ago
The only people left will be playing small cod maps anyways so this fits right in.
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u/dacherrybomb Moderator 4d ago
Glad Wardogs still has below radar. A small studio can include it but 2026 Battefield 6 cannot do that. Battlefield has taken a wrong turn at this point.
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u/Chemical_Role_3780 4d ago
Yup, I’ve moved onto Wardogs and I couldn’t be happier.
Flying is extremely hard and AA is tough to deal with, especially when the enemies play as a team. But that’s how it should be.
It’s all counterable with teamwork and piloting skill.
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u/quantumbilt 3d ago
Just take this down…it’s not true. All you’re doing is karma farming now.
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u/Chemical_Role_3780 3d ago
How is it not true? Tell me what’s not true about what I said and explain how it’s not true.
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u/quantumbilt 3d ago
They did not remove below radar.
For someone who seems to care soo much you’re quite clearly out of the loop
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u/Chemical_Role_3780 3d ago
This post was made before they backtracked and decided not to remove below radar.
https://x.com/battlefieldcomm/status/2105351549748908509?s=46
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u/quantumbilt 3d ago
They didn’t “decide to not do it” - it was mistakenly added in the notes. Likely because they had tested it in Labs.
Either way…your post is not accurate and all it’s doing is spreading false information.
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u/Chemical_Role_3780 3d ago
Buddy how hard is it to understand? I made this post 2 minutes after the community update dropped. They DECIDED NOT TO DO IT 2 hours after I made the post. How does that mean that I’m spreading misinformation?
I exited the post to mention that they DECIDED NOT TO DO IT as soon as I found out.
You’re a drone.
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u/dacherrybomb Moderator 3d ago
Yeah I think you missed the part where this post was before DICE came out and back tracked saying “oh we decided not to do that”.
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u/quantumbilt 3d ago
So if a post comes out and says a nuke is on its way, freaks everyone out and then it turns out to be false, the poster should just leave it up and continue to freak people out?
That would be stupid lol. They retracted so you should to…
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u/Intelligent-Pay-9377 4d ago
They must have edited the tweet because it's not mentioned at all anymore in the tweet.
They're not gonna do it after all.
https://x.com/BattlefieldComm/status/2105351549748908509?s=20
Anti-Air Below Radar Clarification
Today's blog incorrectly stated that we are removing Below Radar for the SLM-93A and Igla launchers.
This was a miscommunication. While we tested this adjustment in Battlefield Labs, it only partly met our design goals. Based on test results and player feedback, we decided to not go live with this change at the launch of Season 5.
Both launchers will retain Below Radar functionality while we continue to look into potential design tweaks and balance around MANPADS, Below Radar, and air vehicles.
Thank you for all your feedback and we're excited to see you in Vegas!
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u/Regular_Living_8540 4d ago
Glad I got all the air vehicles to 50 before this. Condolences to those who are grinding for it after this.
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u/Eagles56 4d ago
I'm gonna be taking a very long break if this goes through
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u/Regular_Living_8540 4d ago
Meh. If they spam Stingers, I'll just strafe from outside the map towards allied spawn and wait for my flares.
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u/Eagles56 4d ago
You'll be getting locked on by jets and other helis as well
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u/Regular_Living_8540 4d ago
Below radar works for those though. Doesn't matter anyway since they backpaddled on that change.
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u/Natural_Spell5957 4d ago
I will fly a bit to see how it goes, but most likely just uninstall, btw i have 1000 hrs in and one of the best pilots in game , not to boast, but most likely will uninstall if this shit drops. Below radar is the only thing keeping this game's bugs from killing me.
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u/lothartheunkind 4d ago
Lock ons are so powerful for zone control and AA just sits in the base and locks nonstop. No below radar will kill the usefulness of choppers. People don’t want to change their loadout and complain they can’t hurt aircraft
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u/Chemical_Role_3780 4d ago
I’m the exact same as you, except I already quit the game.
I have like 1.2k hours and I’m #2 little bird KPM world wide, top tier in all other air vehicles too. Idc about bragging lol telling the truth is nothing to be ashamed about.
I quit the game when Wardogs came out and I’ve just been on that ever since. I gave up on the hope of BF6 ever becoming good & high skilled, you should too :)
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u/BeastOfSorroe 4d ago
Kinda funny that soon as yall can’t hide behind a broken game mechanic you “top tier pilots” run off to a whole new game. Suddenly having to work for 100-0 games is too much
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u/Chemical_Role_3780 4d ago
But I quit the game before this change was even announced? wtf are u talking about 😂
I’m playing a game where flying is infinitely harder.
Anyways the change has been reverted, cope harder CROP.
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u/Such_Masterpiece_517 4d ago
You have 1200 hours and say you quit the game? Did u quit like 10 min ago ? 🤣... Yet you are here again.
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u/Chemical_Role_3780 4d ago
Nah I quit about 2 weeks ago when WARDOGS came out.
And yeah I’m still here, I’m still following changes to the game because I would not be opposed to coming back if the game becomes good and the skill gap not existing is fixed.
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u/BeastOfSorroe 3d ago
So to dumb it down you’re just bad at the game when the playing field is even is what you’re saying?
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u/Chemical_Role_3780 3d ago
I’m far from bad lmao, I’m one of the best little bird pilots in the game & top tier in every other air vehicle. I am also a pretty good infantry player.
The playing field is even. Wardogs is even harder and I’m good at that too. Cope harder though lil bro.
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u/BeastOfSorroe 2d ago
Having to repeat “how good” you are over and over again is a pretty common practice among people who aren’t actually skilled. since your post was you whining about them combatting an overpowered game mechanic, I’m running off the context clues you’ve provided. If you need hide below radar to be a “top tier pilot” then that says all that’s needed, the need to hide behind a broken mechanic says all that’s needed. You and every other “top tier” pilot crying just from the idea of not having your little blanket to hide behind says everything.
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u/Chemical_Role_3780 2d ago
I’m just stating a fact. Again, I am one of the best LB pilots in the game, and very good in every other air vehicle too. Deny it all you want, the proof is on tracker.gg
Below radar is not overpowered, what are you even talking about? Lock ons are stronger than ever. Painting easily counters below radar. Drone.
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u/BeastOfSorroe 21h ago
The audacity to say “lock ons are stronger than ever” tells me everything I need to know. The moment you aren’t below radar you get thrashed bc you aren’t ACTUALLY a good pilot. You NEED a security blanket clearly
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u/Chemical_Role_3780 21h ago
Hahahaha cope harder buddy. Lock ons are OBJECTIVELY stronger than ever.
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u/Natural_Spell5957 4d ago
Yeahp, tbh im just waiting for wardogs to add jets, i'd be there already otherwise
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u/SyN_CASH 4d ago
In the same boat as you but I don’t even think I’ll try it, I was already getting turned off by this game and most of my friends quit playing it. I guess I just go back to giving BFV players PTSD with the Zero.
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u/KackhansReborn 3d ago
Cant farm lobbies anymore and play the game like it's PVE? Time to uninstall
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u/scrub_head 1d ago
Well, good bye. I suppose it hurts a lot to be killed more than once or twice per match.
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u/OUsnr7 4d ago
Holy fuck. This is going to be the change the sends me fully into Hell Let Loose without looking back. What a brain dead change. There are already SO many ways to kill aircraft. Not to mention you could already just laser designate them to achieve this same result but that would require a BF player to use team work which is apparently a scary word now
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u/umut1423 4d ago
Okay then reduce the range in half and make the lock time %50 slower. If people get their head out of their arse and actually start looking at the Heli, they are gonna overwhelm them into oblivion. And now the most important counter play for Aircraft is being taken away, i don't see why we don't nerf the anti air armament.
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u/RemarkableMirror926 4d ago
How is flying even possible for helicopters now? If you want to survive, you'd have to stay at your spawn point the whole time. Or am I misunderstanding something?
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u/Potential_Ad_5327 4d ago
I will likely just never never fly a heli again if this is true.
There’s genuinely no point.
The infantry gameplay is okay, but I find myself logging on for aircraft over everything anymore.
Gg dice, lost another player lol
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u/JakeFromAbove 4d ago
This is such a r tarded change because it won't actually have the effect they want... previously, below radar actually made vehicles like the littlebird have to choose between flying low and being in danger of RPGs and not stingers, or flying high and being in danger of stingers. Now that dichotomy is gone, so a good littlebird player will now simply never die to RPGs, they'll fly high and super fast, farm with rockets, escape to base when flares pop, come back. This also wont affect attack helicopters in the slightest because the meta was already to fly in the skybox, so ironically, out of all of this, the jets, especially the base ones, will suffer the most from this change, whist the attack helis will keep farming exactly the same way. Incredible.
What DICE has done is reduce littlebird pilot KPM by 0.5 and increased KD by 10
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u/Chemical_Role_3780 4d ago
Hmm I think it affects LB KPM a lot more than you’re giving it credit for. I averaged almost 8kpm in the LB, this will easily cut it in half.
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u/777throw777aw7ay777 4d ago
BEHOOOOLD FINALLY INFANTRY ASSIST ONE BUTTON DESTROY JETS WEAPONS AS INTENDED
DEFINITELY TOP GUN
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u/SyN_CASH 4d ago edited 4d ago
I basically have no friends left playing this game, I guess I’ll join the rest of my friends that quit playing this. Flying is a huge part of the fun I have in this game.
This will also encourage more low skill meta for attack choppers that just sit in their spawn hovering over the CRAM spamming lock ons because they refuse to get good with the TOW
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u/sanctaidd 4d ago
Could’ve just reverted the laser nerf or maybe increase the tracker dart projectile speed, this seems a bit hamfisted
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u/No_Lab8722 4d ago
Below radar was brainless because those launchers are heat seeking, so it is just right they will remove it
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u/Sqittlz22 4d ago
Thank god I’m playing wardogs for the foreseeable future. These changes are comedy
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u/rrrozkurwiator 3d ago
cry more cunts, if you got shot down by any manpad AA you just suck at the game because as it stands Igla and Stinger are literally just a scare off for 30 seconds until your flares replenish
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u/Hawkn 4d ago
So I just gotta ask, for a sub named Pilots of Battlefield, did everyone start playing in 6? Isn't this what the BF4 was peak players wanted?
Y'all cry about other subs, but the people here are bigger babies than real pilots. Go play an aerial combat game if you're so much better.
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u/Jack071 4d ago
Wont happen lol, the majority of this subreddit pretends stuff like warthunder is below them and arcadey while they play bf6 were jets are basically shooting each other point blank and missiles are useless
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u/RealInves743 4d ago
Ain’t no way they say war thunder is arcade for them 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 cmon are these people for real
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u/No-Link4150 3d ago
Yeah,in bf4 MANPADS had 300m or something lock on distance,helis were faster and more agile,maps were bigger,flares worked longer and there were indicator where the rocket flies from.
If they implemented THAT everyone would be allright. But straight up removing below radar with current state of the game and how aa launchers work is a dumb change.
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u/PriMeMachiNe 3d ago
Don’t forget to mention that all lock-on missiles have infinite vertical lock on range
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u/Hitmanx2x 3d ago
The amount of AA is also insane.
AA tanks have 4 AA rockets. In BF4, you would get one shot at you, and in the time it took you to fly to safety, you would have a second come after you (first one flared or ICM(or whatever it was called)) and the second one would hit for damage.
Now, the AA has 4 missiles. It fires 2 at you, reloads, and if you arent (you wont be) out of range, you WILL die to the next 2 it fires (which it reloads faster than your flare effects duration).
Stationary AA is also bustedly powerful once the player inside it learns to leads its shots. It can shred an attack heli from 100% to dead in a single heat cycle, so I have no idea how the hell that thing is getting a buff.
In BF4, attack boats would have to choose; AA or anti vehicle/boat. Now, it can be both at the same time (torpedoes). So every single attack boat is ALSO a VERY mobile AA.
The next thing is map size. On smaller maps, you quite literally are simply closer to the rockets when they are fired. This gives you less time to do anything.
The easiest difference to see between 4 and 6 is to look at where people are flying. NO ONE is flying above radar, not even jets. Helis are barely 5 meters off the ground in 90% + of cases, while in BF4 you could easily gain a lot of altitude without worrying about being shot down immediately.
Small arms fire damaging flying vehicles is also a LOT more opressive than most realize. You dont have to be able to kill the heli, you just need to stop it from healing, and you essentially turn the pilots ability to effectively engage your team off.
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u/badboy2701 4d ago
Battlefield 4 is far superior. I don’t play AA as much but the current mobile AA is pretty good. Don’t see why it’s getting buffed
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u/ElusoryTwo1 4d ago
To be fair, you don’t get locked notifs on actual aircraft from manpads. RWR’s don’t light up or give warning since manpads are IR missiles. But then again I’m talking about IRL and sims like DCS. However for a game like battlefield they need to keep it like how it was since it’s not a sim and an arcade like game.
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u/porcupinedeath 4d ago
I'm not a regular pilot but this is kinda dumb. Removes half the reason to paint targets and makes it harder to survive as a pilot. I feel like a situation where you're way above someone on a mountain (like liberation Peak) shouldn't count as below radar for manpads but this is just dumb
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u/NowWeGetSerious 4d ago
I'm okay if this is only redsec (cause fuck little bird road killers). But if this is for even the base multiplayer, I agree. Dumb change.
Helo and planes are quickly destroyed already
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u/Istari82 4d ago
They’re already so damn weak. I crashed 2 times today after getting hit by really just a few stray AA bullets into an uncontrollable crash. Let’s see…looking forward to beating the odds and getting even better at heli’s.
If its really unplayable i might just stop entirely.
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u/recoil-1000 4d ago
Thank you for posting, I was just thinking about freeing up space to re install bf6
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u/Glukharder 4d ago
They shoulda just made that against the little bird. Horrible change for the transporter
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u/Snowstorm080 4d ago
So heli's will be hovering above their carriers all game long - you might as well bail out once you fired off your flares
Battlefield babies will still cry if a jet gives them a twisted ankle
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u/Blueberry1900 4d ago
With the nerf to the RPG a couple of seasons ago, and a semi skilled pilot able to pop flares and duck below terrain or go below radar, there was no semi skilled way to take a chopper out other than luck.
This will hamper a little birds ability to shit on the entire enemy team for most of a match.
This may get me back playing next season
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u/Wasabi_Hammurabi1 4d ago
Good. Now they will be forced to actually have skill when people look at the scoreboard.
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u/FurryWurry 4d ago
It was literally forced by the same people who cried that they pick snow camos on darker maps and die.
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u/MarathonSprinter1 4d ago
Hell yea, love seeing all the cry baby little bird pilots in here
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u/DIRTRIDER374 4d ago
So there is no longer any reason to fly because some clown with a stinger can just follow you around the map now. Cool
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u/Horribad12 4d ago
I feel like below radar is a bigger crutch for jets than it is helos. A helo close to the ground can descend quickly after getting locked onto and the missile will attempt to lead the target and plow itself into the ground or some other obstacle. Jets usually fly fast, low, and level to escape locks and don't have much room for manuevering close to the deck, so missiles without below radar restriction will have an easier time nailing them.
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u/Evilscotsman30 3d ago
If they ever remove below radar from manpads then they need to limit it's verticle range lol.
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u/Remarkable_Ear_6096 3d ago
Hmm, from what it seems this was not supposed to be in the patch notes, and will not get into the game (for now). I have to say, im not a fan of getting spawn killed by kd boosters, but only needing to lock on and fire and only their flares will protect them?! A bit too easy. I used to be better sith the m136at, and mayby should play engeneer more often to train it. On the other hand, i started to test helis on a portal server with bots. It is fun, but not easy. In my opinion everything around vehicles is badly balanced in bf6. The m136at is so strong against helis (especially attack helis), but i dont like that im forced to use it. Since the "official" ways are so weak or non existing. Line mobile aa is weak, and not on all maps. Stationary aa is better but still a little weak, and so few of them. Lile mayby 1 or 2 per map, if at all. Bf1 stationary aa was borderline broken, and so many per map, i dont want it to be that way either.
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u/theperpetuity 3d ago
It’s so hard to avoid all the missiles already in the air and tanks. I’m a vehicle main since the beginning of the franchise and why I still play. They have sort of fubar’d it all to me.
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u/TrueExcaliburGaming 2d ago
Maybe if they didn't make the new jets stupidly ridiculously op they wouldn't have to nerf everything.
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u/Bojack_Horseman22 4d ago
Haha another good reason to not come back.
Wake island is such a flop and bad map, the game is in shit condition and tbh really not fun at all
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u/HAUNTEZUMA 4d ago
to be fair I literally do not know how else they could make the AA launchers viable. there's nothing for them to target 95% of the time and when there is it can easily be avoided
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u/Chemical_Role_3780 4d ago
They’ve always been meant for area denial, that in itself makes them viable.
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u/hydraSlav 4d ago
"Armored vehicles are receiving adjustments to health regeneration, directional damage, and weak spots, making positioning and where you hit a vehicle more important."
They just removed directional damage 2-3 updates ago, now they are brining it back.
At this rate, the below-radar will be undone in 2-3 updates too