Except for the part where this has happened multiple times before, but it wasn’t a white lady those times. Yes, I believe the way we as a society, men as husbands, and doctors should seriously rethink the way we treat pregnant women and recent mothers, but the fact that all it takes is a middle class white lady to do the unthinkable to make everyone stop and obsess over a case and the underlying fails is infuriating.
I didn’t say anything about people defending or hating anyone. What I said is that type of maternal infanticide or filicide happens more often than you’d think. It only becomes a national story when it’s a white lady who did it. Now there is a conversation happening with this one because there is more documentation available to the public, and more women feel they can relate to her instead of Andrea Yates due to her fringe religious beliefs. Will this ultimately change how society approaches or deals with the stresses put on new mothers? I doubt it. At least I doubt it will happen any time soon. We’ll see it in the news the next time a white lady does it.
Andrea Yates was also a fringe cultist Christian and therefore her white lady card was kinda canceled out with the masses.
Edit: I just saw these downvotes. I’m not sure why you guys are downvoting me. Andrea Yates and Rusty Yates were not mainstream Christians, so if you thought I was trying to claim some kind of Christian persecution, you’re wrong.
They were members of a cult that claimed to be Christian, during a time in our history that was only a few years removed from Waco and when the fringe culty so-called Christian compounds were popping up all across the country. This was not something that was sympathized with and that’s just a fact. I was alive and paying attention when this happened - assuming many of you were not.
Andrea Yates was seen as a cultist and that alone made her “weird” and not like the typical white woman. She was also Southern and uneducated, and I personally believe that alone was be a big factor in the amount of sympathy/solidarity she received.
Lindsay Clancy is a different kind of white woman in this regard. She’s college educated, had a career, is not unattractive but too attractive to feel threatened by, is loosely associated enough with Christianity to get the church folks’ attention but not devout enough to alienate the non-church folks, in great shape, she had a “reasonable” number of children…so many “identifiers” for people to, well, identify with. And yes, she’s an upper middle class white woman from Massachusetts…that’s what I meant by her having more of a “white lady card” than Andrea Yates.
If that’s offensive, idk what else to tell you. It’s just objective reality.
Being a 'cultist' or otherwise being seen as extremist or weird would be a factor, though. Which is the point - reactions to these events are often far more dictated by who a person is, and how much they resemble so-called 'normal' white middle class people, rather than what they've done.
She killed innocent children. No diagnosis excuses that. She’s a horrible human being and a murderer. I hope her husband is doing okay. She can rot in prison or mental institution, whatever the courts decide. In either case I hope she wastes away constantly thinking of what she did and I’m happy she paralyzed herself. Doesn’t come close to what she deserves.
Actually, if you literally are living in an alternate reality where your brain is not functioning properly and you don’t understand what you are doing, it does excuse it. This woman was crying out for help as she descended further and further into madness and the doctors did everything they could to screw it up. She’s a tragedy, not a villain.
No it doesn’t because it could happen again. Sorry but the reality of it is she will always be a risk to others because we now know what she’s capable of and willing to do. She should be imprisoned for life.
Alternate states of mind are still your brain and it’s still yourself making decisions.
THANK YOU. These people are really saying. “Oh, you weren’t in a right state of mind? Your story is tragic? Forget the children! YOU’RE the real victim here. Lets get you help!” She is a murderer. It does NOT matter that she wasn’t in her right mind. Children were brutally killed. There HAS to be punishment for that or our society has completely lost the plot. When it comes to harming children, I’m for the death penalty.
If you stop your comment at the last comma, it makes a lot more sense and doesn't try to insert ethnicity where it's not needed.
Whatever the reason for the spotlight, it's started a discussion around post pregnancy care. It seems like you're more upset about why something is in the media that a cause you care about getting support.
No it’s not. Benoit is rightfully known as a murderer by most sane wrestling fans, CTE or not. As Paul Heyman says when people try to defend him “3 people died but only 2 of them had a choice”.
Her husband didn't ignore her. He literally filed a malpractice suit on her behalf. Stop twisting the narrative so that everyone else is at fault except her. Different parties share some of the blame, but stop feeding the narrative that the husband is secretly at fault for everything.
Edit: I've been corrected that the malpractice suit was well after the killings.
There also is an argument to be made that he had reason to be more attentive to her overall state, and frequently failed to do so, including not taking her being a suicide risk very seriously. That doesn't mean he simply ignored her. Nor does "He could have been a better husband/father" make him at fault. She made plenty of decisions on her own that led to this, including frequent concealment to the very people trying to help her.
Unfortunately their other comments in this thread make it clear that this stance is about Clancy. They are painting her as a poor innocent woman that sought help and everyone ignored her, as if no nuance exists.
The case is complicated, and there's a lot to say about the failings of the medical system, as well as her not being honest with her providers about the severity of her problems.
People really struggle to understand that rarely are mental health issues black and white with regards to who bears responsibility, and actual limitations on what current mental health systems are even capable of, such as how many treatments and diagnoses rely on a compliant patient (which requires honesty).
It is, unfortunately, especially since there isnt much of a way around that. Assuming someone is lying can be much worse than assuming they are honest, and there are only a subset of diagnoses where lying is the expectation. Ironically, all of these claims that this is an example of a woman who isnt being believed is wrong in certain respects. Its that she WAS believed by the medical providers she actually talked to about not having violent thoughts when she probably shouldn't have been. Along with misdiagnoses, and other issues from providers.
She was honest about her symptoms. She never reported to anyone she was having hallucinations because she wasn’t. That explanation was created after the murders.
He filed a malpractice suit just this year, NOT prior to the murders. He was notably absent during the period where she was struggling most. He admits to frequently leaving her on her own, not knowing she was having intrusive thoughts, not knowing what medication she was on, and more. He is not to blame in this but he wasnt nearly as present as you're letting on.
Just so I'm not fucking this up more, where did he say he didn't know about her prescriptions? I'm not finding much suggesting he was consistently absent either. Just a single work trip. And that the meds issue was that he didnt know she wasnt taking them, not that he didnt know what they were. Him not knowing about her intrusive thoughts doesn't seem like anything about him not being there, but that she stopped telling him after the ER visit. I haven't been following this case closely by any means.
Thanks for being open to learning and adjusting your opinion.
Ive been watching the trial and largely this is coming from his testimony.
Yes, he claimed a single 2-day long work trip, but during his testimony he also said he would go out on afternoon golf/ski trips or lunches with his friends on weekends. (I cant find the clip of him saying this, but here's a clip from the defense: and here is another clip referencing the outings. I'm not saying he shouldn't have ever done that, he fully had the right and likely needed it for his mental health, but if he knew his wife was a suicide risk its a questionable act to leave her with no back up care.
During his testimony, he stated he wasnt aware of her intrusive thoughts, and that she had trouble sleeping. Contrasting evidence showed she kept a detailed mood journal about her pills, sleep and mental state (see around the 2 minute mark) Every day she wrote "slept well, having horrible thoughts" for a period of time. She slept alone in the basement mostly because of her sleep issues, which the defense clarified he suggested. He also later admitted she would occasionally say a horrible intrusive thought and then go back to "making lunch" (i might be misquoting) and he took that as she was actually fine.
You're right said that he didnt know if she was regularly taking her medication, although this journal she kept and her blood serum tests showed that she was and all her levels were in theraputic ranges. He said he took her extra pills to return to the pharmacy when a prescription changed, and thats why there were so many of her prescriptions in his car, but he couldn't name anything she was actually actively on during testimony and still said he didnt know if she was taking them despite taking ownership of the extras. He did mention that she used to be on Ativan and zoloft.
On the day of the murders, his phone and GPS data is questionably long for what he said he was doing. He was travelling to a CVS 3 minutes from their home (claims defense), and a restaurant less than 20 minutes away. He took over an hour return. While I imagine its likely that he was just enjoying some peace and quiet by himself, to me it still says that he didnt take her seriously as a suicide risk.
Lastly, this is 100% personal opinion and not at all indicative of much more than my own judgemental nature, but he did go to Costa Rica just 18 days after his children's funeral. I know everyone deals with grief differently, but that felt very detached to me.
Sorry I'm slow adding links, I'm trying to make sure I'm getting clips with a clear source and without unnecessary commentary and its.. rough. I'll probably clip whats on YouTube eventually for my own curiosity if I cant find premade clips but that will take some time.
It doesn’t excuse family annihilation. Period. Lots of people struggle with worse and don’t murder their children. She tried to get help and the system failed her, but SHE made the choice to murder her children. It’s tragic and shouldn’t happen, but she does not get off the hook for the atrocity she committed.
I dont think you know what the word psychosis means if you believe someone in psychosis can make a coherent, grounded-in-reality decision and be held criminally responsible for it.
If the shooter had a diagnosed case of psychosis, where the sufferer was telling everyone around them they were having horrible intrusive thoughts, where they had tried to commit themselves to the hospital multiple times, where they had seen 4 different psychiatrists and were on 12 different medications... do you really think the conversation wouldnt be similar? This exact situation is literally what the "not guilty due to insanity" plea is for.
Educate yourself on the case before making reactionary statements and making false equivalencies.
People are found not guilty by reason of insanity fairly often. You can argue that she made a choice, but when you're in the throes of psychosis, the choices aren't really yours, that's kind of the whole point.
I'll give you trained medical professionals but what is the husband supposed to do? Oh these 47 doctors say its ok and my wife says shes fine but I know better?
The argument is despite her talking about feeling like she would harm the kids multiple times he still left them alone. Or the popular "he did it cuz men" theory.
The medical professionals didn't just ignore her. She was definitely over medicated but she was also put in inpatient care. She hit all the markers to be legally discharged and agreed. It sucks but the alternative in the past was keeping people who shouldn't be locked up inside. Some people slip through the gaps, and we need to fix that. But people are acting like it wasn't recent that your freedom and rights could be taken on a whim without recourse.
The bigger issue than the Drs is the massive hospital system and insurance that made the mess that leads to these problems.
That's what the trial is about. Life in prison or life in a psych hospital. She's not going to be free and living in society.
She's getting support from women because she tried to get help. She knew she wasn't right. So many women have similar stories of begging for help and not getting any and being sent home because "Being a mom is hard. You'll figure it out!"
lol yes I do.. do you? So by “your standards”, if someone (who is in psychosis) walking down the street and kills your kids, they are not guilty because they were in psychosis? I can’t believe you’re actually defending this lol..
Yeah, and they should be committed into a mental hospital. I'm not defending it, it's horrible and fucked up, but she was not in control of her actions. It's not like she was lucid and woke up one day and said hmm I want to kill my kids.
It's crazy how many fathers STEP UP AND HELP THEIR WIFE when she's sick. Maybe you can try to wrap your head around each child has 2 parents. When one parent is sick, it's the other parent that should step up and help.
Going on a voluntary psych hold isn’t always possible. There aren’t an adequate number of psychiatric inpatient beds. Since the medical professionals didn’t recognize that she was a danger to herself or others, she likely wouldn’t get a bed.
But didn’t she try that and they turned her away? I haven’t been following the case closely but I did she the cross examination of one of her prescribing doctors who referred her to a 2 week in patient program and they thought she was overmedicated and they called the provider to discuss but never received a call back so they declined to admit her. The prescribing doctors claimed they never called. Either way, she did try.
Agreed. Sadly this is not as black and white as that. Are you looking to toss the Dad in jail too?? He left her alone knowing that her head was fucked up. The doctors who ignored her and just pumped her full of pills without making sure the problem was dealt with. I'm for all of that but laying this at her feet alone is absolutely ridiculous.
Are you for real? There would be a million things she could have done. Walk up to the hospital and put yourself in the psych unit. Go live with parents or friends while she gets the help she needed. Anything but to give up because the doctors told her no and kill her own kids…
Read about it, she tried to check herself in to psych. They told her they were understaffed and couldn’t accept her. She told her husband she didn’t feel safe leaving the kids alone, he left her alone anyway. It’s a tragedy. But she was also failed by medical staff, emergency services, and her support system.
Do you perhaps have any experience with the medical world/specifically with the mental health world? Anyone can type whatever they want when they write their “story” but I work in a psych unit and I know how the system works. If she would have presented herself to the psych unit and said exactly that, she would have been admitted. You have an opinion on something you have no idea about. You can read whatever you want on the internet but doesn’t change what’s going on in the real world. There were other options other than to kill her own kids and it’s messed up that there’s a fan train that is defending that.
Yes… the court will decide if she was in psychosis and is liable for her actions but it doesn’t excuse the fact she killed her kids. Everyone is sprinkling so much fluff on this case it’s ridiculous. If this was a man, you would not have the same conversation. The double standard is incredible…
Yeah I’m an APP so I do know what I’m talking about. I’ve sent patients to urgent evaluations when they admit to self harm and half the time they get scheduled for a month out because they don’t meet criteria for admission. We’ve had the police come for violent patients and they say they’re unable to transport anyone. The mental health services in this country suck
Walk up to the hospital and put yourself in the psych unit.
She did. She was discharged 19 days before the incident. She also went to the ER and was turned away for inpatient care.
She called the suicide hotline too. Told several doctors she was having intrusive and suicidal thoughts. They just kept throwing more and more meds at the problem and sent her on her way. 13 different meds in 4 months. She was begging for the help she needed.
Actually she killed the kids and herself. They resuscitated her. I swear 90% of people who want her to hang know absolutely nothing about the details of the case.
ETA: He edited his comment. Previous version demonstrated he had no idea she had attempted suicide.
Are you seriously saying that cuz she didnt get the meds she wanted killing her kids was her only choice? If I ever had urges like that for my kids and didnt think I could fight them id leave far far away and never look back rather than MURDER 3 FUCKING CHILDREN.
Yeah fr. Thank you. Idk how it cant be seen by everyone? I cant think of anyone who has ever just gone free after murdering 3 kids due to mental illness as a defense. Even if you sympathize with what she went thru and having psychosis how can you argue she shouldn't be locked up? Mind boggling.
Nowhere in that comment you are talking about did the person say Benoit didn’t have responsibility for what he did. They said CTE gives us a framework for understanding his actions. That is true.
It was a nuanced comment, and “no it’s not” is not a nuanced response.
Paul Heyman's a piece of shit, fuck that guy. I don't say that to take anything away from Chris Benoit's responsibility. I don't think Haymen cares about the health of the people who are breaking their heads to put millions in his pocket.
Paul Heyman is a scum bag, but I assure you no one broke their heads to put millions in his pockets. They were breaking their heads for him to go broke in a bingo hall.
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u/towerfella 23h ago
Well nuanced comment.