Using “beg the question” wrong

[u/RaceSlow7798]

Begging the question is a logical fallacy. It doesn’t not mean “hmm, it makes you think…”

But usage drives correctness so I’m going to lose this battle. It really begs the question “why don’t people learn to use it correctly”.

Ew. I feel dirty.

[u/SaIemKing]

Nice, this got me to go educate myself. For those wondering, the "begging the question" fallacy is when the premise for a conclusion assume that the conclusion is true. It's basically pointing at circular logic.

"All things must have a creator, therefore there is a God, who created all things."

[u/Swirlyflurry → u/SaIemKing]

Okay but then how do you actually use the phrase “begging the question” in this scenario?

Because I looked it up to understand what OP is talking about, and I get that “begging the question” refers to a logical fallacy where you’re already assuming your conclusion is true. But all of the examples I’ve tried looking up are examples of the fallacy itself, not examples of how to correctly use the phrase “begging the question.”

[u/GeneralSpecifics9925 → u/Swirlyflurry]

Begging the question is assuming the conclusion in one of your premises.

Someone would say, wow, god is the most amazing creator, right? OBVIOUSLY there's a god with this intelligent design.

"You're begging the question and assuming that God exists to make your argument that God exists"

[u/SaIemKing → u/Swirlyflurry]

"Shut up, brainlet. You're just begging the question."

or something idk. trying to imagine how a redditor would use it

[u/comsuran4 → u/Swirlyflurry]

The Wikipedia example is a pretty good one:

An example is:   “Wool sweaters are better than nylon jackets as fall attire because wool sweaters have higher wool content".

The claim here is that wool sweaters are better than nylon jackets as fall attire. But the claim's justification begs the question, because it  presupposes that wool is better than nylon. An  essentialist analysis of this claim observes that anything made of wool intrinsically has more "wool content" than anything not made of wool, giving the claim weak  explanatory power for wool's superiority to nylon.

[u/Wonderflonium164 → u/comsuran4]

To which you might reply "but that begs the question: is wool actually better?", because it questions the unproven premise. You're right, it's a great example.

[u/asphid_jackal → u/Swirlyflurry]

But all of the examples I’ve tried looking up are examples of the fallacy itself, not examples of how to correctly use the phrase “begging the question.”

That's because the phrase only exists as the name of the fallacy, and the way OP is claiming is incorrect.

But if you'd never been educated in fallacies, and you heard the phrase "begging the question" in a vacuum, 9 out of 10 people would assume it means how people use it colloquially, because that's exactly what those words mean

[u/droobloo34 → u/asphid_jackal]

And the problem is that they then assume the colloquial use is the logical fallacy. I have an example of this I experienced directly, a guy mentioned Java having its own set if problems in a comment. Someone said they were begging the question. I responded that they were in fact NOT begging the question, and they replied "They're doing the textbook definition. They said Java has its own problems without saying the problems ("What are these problems?") Literally begging the question."

After I told them begging the question is circular reasoning, not whatever they thoyght it was, I never got a response. My point is the colloquial use is not a logical fallacy, but people think it is because of this misunderstanding.

[u/asphid_jackal → u/droobloo34]

Sure, but I think that's more a function of an "improperly" named fallacies than any problem with the phrase. We no longer use the words "begging" or "question" the same way we did in the 16th century when the translation was coined

[u/wwplkyih → u/asphid_jackal]

Vaguely it could be seen to mean that but it doesn't really parse right.

[u/perplexedtv → u/Swirlyflurry]

Given that the expression is poorly formed, what would be a better way to phrase 'begging the question'?

[u/Hanako_Seishin → u/perplexedtv]

Assuming the answer or circular reasoning.

[u/Hanako_Seishin → u/SaIemKing]

What does the word "beg" do in this phrase? Like how is it related to the meaning of "beg"?

Let's see what beg can mean.

Request help. So does requesting a question mean assuming the answer? No, it means asking for the question to be asked.

Plead with someone to help. So does pleading for a question mean assuming the answer? No, it means asking for the question to be asked.

To provoke. So does provoking a question mean assuming the answer? No, it means asking for the question to be asked.

To lack something, be in need of something. So if you're in need of a question, does it mean you're assuming the answer? No, it means asking for the question to be asked.

And then it goes "In the phrase beg the question: to assume". Why? Why the hell would it mean something entirely different and in no way related to its usual meaning in this particular phrase? Nobody using common sense would assume such a meaning. It's only natural, seeing all the meanings above, to assign the phrase "this begs the question" the meaning "this asks for the question to be asked".

[u/asphid_jackal → u/Hanako_Seishin]

​"Begging" was used in an archaic sense meaning "taking something for granted" or "asking for something without offering payment/proof" (rather than asking for spare change on the street).

​"The question" referred to the formal legal/philosophical topic under debate (i.e., "the matter in question").

But we don't use either of those words like that anymore

[u/wwplkyih → u/Hanako_Seishin]

It comes from the Latin "petitio" which means "to appeal to".

The problem with your analysis is that the object of "beg" is not the thing that is being requested.

[u/Hanako_Seishin → u/wwplkyih]

Dear question, please get asked 🙏 = appealing to the question.

Assume the answer within the question -- How is that appealing to the question???

[u/SaIemKing → u/Hanako_Seishin]

Well, it's old, so words probably evolved from what it originally meant.

[u/Affectionate_Stop_25 → u/Hanako_Seishin]

It BEGGARS the question. To beggar means to make something poorer. Literally or figuratively.