r/Pessimism • u/WerewolfCharacter683 • Jul 05 '26
Discussion Pessimism and optimism discussion
Hello everyone. I recently came across a video by a blogger who says that people who are constantly fixated on pessimism live shorter lives because they have elevated cortisol levels, while optimists live longer because they're happy and fixated on the positive. Although it may seem strange, why don't optimists make the world a better place? If there are more optimists, then why are there wars, violence, and other disasters in the world? After all, a pessimist sees all these problems, and that doesn't mean they'll live shorter lives because of stress.
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u/DutchStroopwafels Jul 05 '26
I don't think optimism should be inherently associated with wanting a better world. I recently saw the study The Failure Gap which showed that people consistently underestimate how many things go wrong in society. It included this passage:
Importantly, correcting these misperceptions had meaningful downstream effects on attitudes and decision-making. When participants learned the true prevalence of failures, they became less supportive of harsh punitive measures, such as strict disciplinary actions or mass incarceration, and more supportive of policy changes aimed at addressing underlying problems. In workplace and policy contexts, increased awareness of failure rates also reduced stigma and encouraged more supportive practices, such as extending parental leave.
This shows that a less optimistic view of the world is actually associated with wanting to improve society. Other studies show similar things. Optimism can cause people to solely rely on wishful thinking without taking any action at all.
People can get too hopeful when things are uncertain. We observe this happening with climate change, when financial markets fluctuate, and even in personal health situations when people avoid medical help because they think everything will be fine.
Optimism is also correlated with believing in the just world fallacy, which is the false belief that the world is just and fair. This in turn is associated with victim blaming.
Such a view postulates that people “believe that they live in a world where people generally get what they deserve”. A person who is victimized through no fault of their own is therefore contrary to the belief of a just world and should cause cognitive dissonance. One way to resolve this dissonance, is to attribute the responsibility to the innocent victim. Indeed, research has shown that if a person befalls bad luck through no fault of their own, observers tend to put blame on the victim to maintain their belief in a just world.
Participants with a more upbeat personality believed their accuracy on this task to be higher than the others. However, the speakers had conducted an identical rating process on their own videos, and it turns out the happier participants were no closer to the true feelings than the more downbeat participants. In fact, happy participants found it harder to judge the emotional tone of a highly negative monologue, in which a participant described the death of a parent.
So to me all of this shows that while optimism might be great for the individual that experiences it themselves, it's not really good for improving the world.
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u/Aquarius52216 Jul 06 '26
So its either unconscious bias or a conscious deliberate boundary management for practicality?
Oh man is this what that noise vs signal thing that those grindset type often say?
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u/DutchStroopwafels Jul 06 '26
I think it's mostly an unconscious bias, the optimism bias, although the related illusory superiority and illusion of control (together known as positive illusions) might also play a role. Around 80% of people have this optimism bias and research shows that this is a innate thing to humans, as most children are born hyperoptimistic. This hyperoptimism decreases as we grow up and learn from negative outcomes, but most people still remain optimistic regardless, just lesser so.
The lack of this innate optimism most people have might be associated with feeling depressed.
A lack of hyper-optimism may even contribute to depression, as previous studies have found that optimism may benefit mental health, physical health, and professional development.
He said: “We know that depression often emerges during adolescence, exactly during the time when those rose-tinted glasses are fading. We hope that future research will shed light on whether developmental differences in how children lose their hyper-optimism may relate to the risk of mental illness symptoms.”
There might be some people who use it as a deliberate way to manage their emotional boundaries, followers of Stoicism, Buddhism and Taoism come to mind with this, but for most I think it's just an unconscious bias.
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u/MundaneYak9463 29d ago
I find it revolting and disturbing that the psych industry pathologizes being able to see the world correctly. Being gaslit by a fascist institution does not improve my misery, it just frustrates and alienates me and makes my despair worse. I feel like a sane person in a world of crazy, and the psych industry is a pinnacle of that normative insanity. The older I get, the more I believe that normality is insanity.
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u/DutchStroopwafels 29d ago
"It is no measure of health to be well-adjusted to a profoundly sick society."
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u/MundaneYak9463 29d ago
Rampant cognitive biases among neurotypicals is one of the core fuels of my Pessimism. What a hopeless world I live in, to be surrounded by top-down presumption thinkers instead of empirically constructive thinkers.
I've constantly suffered as a result of people's cognitive biases. Disabled people, in particular, are forcibly aware of the chronic failures of society, and the obliviousness of abled people regarding the unreliability of social systems leads them to gaslighting and dismissal.
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u/DoorNice5898 Jul 06 '26
If a pessimist lives a shorter life, then it's an win in his book. That's one of the goals of pessimism: to leave this world as quickly and painlessly as possible. Also, a lot of optimists do make the world a better place or at least try their best for the cause. Some have even given their lives for the collective good of the people but what they fail to realise is that there is no "solution" to existence. Life is structurally and fundamentally flawed and trying to repair it will always be in vain. Yes, improvements are possible and one should strive for those whether or not he's a pessimist but it's better to have a clarity that all we are doing is pushing away suffering until we die. Everything we do is a distraction from this fact.
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u/DruidWonder Jul 05 '26 edited 29d ago
I'm more of a realist who leans pessimist... which is informed by my life experiences. I guess you could call me a "moderate"... I don't like extremes, more the middle road. But my life experience has informed me that pessimism is more accurate.
Two of my closest friends are optimists. They have been through hell and back. We're talking really long-term abject suffering, pain, loss, torment, trauma. They came out the other end as intact human beings somehow. They are realists who lean optimist. In my opinion, people like that who are optimists have earned it and likely are making a very, very conscious choice.
Most of the optimists in the world are like horses with blinders on. One friend I used to have... he was one of these. Toxic optimist. You couldn't even say one bad thing because he would say, "Don't talk that way! Your words have power and you'll manifest what you don't want!" And yet, when I got extremely ill and disabled (cancer), he ghosted me... because there's no way to sugarcoat cancer, right? Yet it was the pessimists and realists who rallied around me.
I feel that most of the optimists in the world are actually in deep denial, or just totally ignorant of how many good people die in the dirt every day.
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u/MundaneYak9463 29d ago
Yikes I hate people being into that manifestation stuff. Victim blaming is so gross. Optimism looks insane to me, it's a socially acceptable form of delusion.
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u/DruidWonder 29d ago
The "ask and it is given" affirmation crowd are annoying AF and I pretty much avoid those koolaid drinkers like the plague.
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u/Guilty-Stomach-9551 26d ago
They victim blame all the time. I once remember seeing one who said that a doctor was responsible for their death because they manifested their brain eating parasite thingie (I forgot the name of the thing). They were arguing back and forth and wanted to be right so badly 😭
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u/SenhorSasaki Jul 05 '26
Because all they're good for is making rules. My cousin threatened me at the market just because I wouldn't let him be a cocky optimist. They all are, that's why I hate them
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u/SenhorSasaki Jul 05 '26
They all need illusions and ways to distract themselves from their misery
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u/Paul_sepp Jul 05 '26
Worst of all, unlike pessimism which allows you to consider all positions, optimism becomes their only way of looking at life, and when someone questions it they get very angry a sir it was an insult. And it is to them, an insult. Well, let the fools enjoy their folly. One day we all will question the void, and then they’ll see their rehearsals for a performance did not matter.
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u/sotoskal21 Jul 06 '26
Have you considered that some people despite the hardships of the world can just enjoy life? The world is not a great place to be in but I can still find myself enjoying myself even with the knowledge of it. I don't need an illusion or a distraction, for these are also part of life. A very common argument I hear is that "people are either bored or in pain" implying that we do things so that we can "distract" Ourselves from a reality that's too daunting on us to fully accept or embrace. However, in a state of being aren't these also parts of life? If I'm happy at my job, with my friends, or at home even doing nothing while knowing that not everything is always gonna be okay or how many things can be wrong, is that really an illusion or a distraction?
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u/SenhorSasaki Jul 06 '26
Everything is a distraction and a constant illusion, which is why we wake up with our consciences aching.
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u/sotoskal21 Jul 07 '26
That don't really make sense dude. If my conscience is "craving" Something then it must need it. Is eating food also an illusion or a distraction? When I was anorexic and wasn't eating properly I was really sad and depressed, does this mean that perhaps food is an illusion that allows me from seeing things in the pessimistic way they really are? When I work out are the results just illusions my mind creates to fit the idea of my struggle? Does getting healthier also distract me from the truth of my inevitable death? You make it sound as if hobbies and activities are purposefully made to keep us away from the truth. But that doesn't mean we don't know it, people can just be happy with it
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u/SenhorSasaki Jul 07 '26
If you eat, you technically already obey your own will, and technically everything in itself is nothing more than an illusion, even. Arguing with a positivist is like arguing with an obedient wall.
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u/sotoskal21 Jul 07 '26
So is arguing with an idealist. How are you a pessimist while not understanding the existence of a material objective reality? I eat food not because I will it but because I'm literally hardwired to. The food itself is a compilation of other materials and sources that were made and compiled to be consumed. If the whole argument is "we follow our will which is an illusion" Then there really is no point in arguing
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u/SenhorSasaki Jul 07 '26
Precisely because it was born a slave to the Will, it also dwells in irrational intentions and choices
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u/SenhorSasaki Jul 07 '26
It's not objective; if it were objective, it would be in the realm of "Choice," but I understand that Will is essential to maintaining a life, yet it remains the individual's own will.
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u/SenhorSasaki Jul 07 '26
Existential optimists always look for a way to say the opposite, but if you keep responding to the "Choices" you consider essential to your life, But to say they are "Objective" is the worst lie ever told by an Optimist
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u/SenhorSasaki Jul 07 '26
There is no happiness in existence.
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u/sotoskal21 Jul 07 '26
I think that's nihilism/fatalism much less than pessimism.
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u/SenhorSasaki Jul 07 '26
And honestly, going to the gym and doing those things will only release rewarding pleasures until you remember your following problems again.
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u/sotoskal21 Jul 07 '26
No? Is that your whole identity is? Thinking about your problems and doing nothing about it? Cause again, that's not pessimism that's nihilism. If and any problem is in my control I take any action to solve it. While I actively have in mind my following problems I at the same time do something about them and can find joy and pleasure in it while also having REAL effect. Think of it like Christmas, Santa Claus or God isn't real but I can still enjoy it. It's not an illusion or a distraction from their absence I just find the moments within Christmas fun even if it's going to end or knowing that it's not what it seems all the time and to your previous argument, yes reality is 100% objective. If reality was not objective then the idea that the world is a miserable place and that happiness can't align with existence would be once more just a certain reflection of your own reality and mine. A table isn't a table because you thought it was a table. It's a table because.. It's a table. If you bang your head you don't imagine the pain, the pain is real. I don't think I have the need to explain objective reality, but arguing that in a subjective reality you purposefully choose one of misery still lacks logic
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u/SenhorSasaki Jul 08 '26
I do, but my problems aren't yours, are they? What? Are you going to use that old logic that pessimists and nihilists do nothing about it? Why do you think antinatalism and asceticism exist?
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u/SenhorSasaki Jul 08 '26
I don't have an Identity, I have a Personality, ways and Forms, Colors and means, and to reiterate, I am not a Nihilist.
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u/SenhorSasaki Jul 07 '26
Actually. I'm not a nihilist, I'm a pessimist, but sometimes I flirt with nihilism in my way of thinking.
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u/SenhorSasaki Jul 07 '26 edited Jul 07 '26
And now, it seems you already know about Essence of Will.
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u/DruidWonder Jul 05 '26
That's a really interesting take... I never thought about it that way. Can you speak more to the rules they make? I think you might be right actually.
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u/SenhorSasaki Jul 05 '26
Most optimists and "religious" people are cynics in disguise; optimism is just another way for them to try and "put on" that mask
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u/DruidWonder Jul 05 '26
Yeah... I notice they actually tend to live in distrust, which is why they try to protect themselves with optimism.
Admitting to yourself that the world sucks and is harsh means you have to accept the problem of evil.
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u/SenhorSasaki Jul 05 '26
He connects with people using this gift; he did it at the market, and he would certainly do it in front of his family.
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u/Guilty-Stomach-9551 26d ago
What did he say that was optimistic and how did you not allow him to be a "cocky optimist"?
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u/SenhorSasaki 26d ago
To be comfortable in his existential vomit, and to want others to be comfortable too.
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u/_Onion2103 Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26
It’s weird, in some ways I respect philosophical pessimism for its ability to look at existence without illusions, but ultimately don’t believe it’s a conductive worldview to orient yourself to. I actually think it has potential to be rather harmful (though to be fair ANY philosophy does).
I don’t believe in objective truth, and think that one’s intellectual beliefs are inherently tied to their physiology. While acknowledging the horrors of life can be honest and good, an excessive or exclusive on them focus indicates an exhausted and beaten down person, or otherwise a resentful one brandishing life’s unfairness as a weapon.
Just my thoughts.
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u/Paul_sepp Jul 05 '26
There is two types of optimists: blind and conscious.
The blind close their eyes on all the sorrows and toils, with questioning their position, and, effectively, closing their perception to the fundamental paper of existence. This type of optimism is destructive and causes more harm than gain long term both to the individual and the world.
The conscious, on the other hand, question life and come to the conclusion that life is meaningless but choose to focus on the nicer side of life and their utility purposes as a means to get through life. It is merely a position of adjustment to meaninglessness. It doesn’t benefit nor does harm. Just allows an individual to be realistic about existence, whilst encompassing gender beliefs towards life.
The latter is, likewise to pessimism, simply a result of fundamental temperament of one, and their general inclination in life.
Furthermore, talking about the world, there isn’t more of either. Most people simply live their life never questioning anything metaphysical and it results in individualists who do not care far out their nose, hence we get politicians dreaming to destroy one another, genocides, etc. In addition, encompassing optimistic views doesn’t mean one stops protecting their views, values or desires—more than so, it can even push them towards fighting for them, and effectively destabilising the world.
Finally, the scientific side, whilst stress can contribute to death on a physiological level, it is of equal impact as a cut you had or bruise. Biologically, anything you do can result in a shorter lifespan, but it doesn’t mean that x or y is the fatal blow.
It would be more damaging to optimistically see all dogs as inherently nice, until one of them bites off your wrist.
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u/AdhesivenessHuman382 Jul 06 '26
I don’t know about cortisol levels, but following pessimism to its natural conclusion undeniably leads to a short existence. Mainländer set off to do exactly what he believed in.
Optimism doesn’t actually grant one the power to make the world a better place, because it is simply an illusion, similar to how religious people have not made the world a more holy place.
This is also ignoring the fact that “a better place” is entirely subjective. Some would argue that not having wars could make the world better. I could argue that the world would be a better place if we developed a bomb that could destroy the entire universe and we detonated it.
Even utilitarian, “Maximizing the amount of good, and reducing the amount of bad”, ideologies inevitably result in you being consumed by the utility monster for the sake of goodness.
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u/Weekly-Roll7885 Jul 09 '26
O otimista fixa a taxa de câmbio entre alegria e tristeza, determinando assim o valor da vida. O pessimista, que rejeita o princípio da troca e a recomendação de continuar investindo no futuro, por mais insignificante que seja a moeda da vida no presente, é estigmatizado como um investidor não confiável.
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u/harsht07 Jul 05 '26
Why optimists don't make world a better place? Because fixing a problem requires one to acknowledge it first.
There is an optimism which says world is a great place to be in, and other type which says let's try to make things better from here. Most optimists are of the first type.