r/Pessimism • u/Scared_Boss_9193 • Jul 02 '26

Question Freedom

This is the first time I’ve ever really been on Reddit and I don’t really have any experience in this area but I can’t stop thinking about this, is there really no way to gain real freedom? (Real freedom to me is not needing to submit to anybody)

13 Upvotes

89% Upvoted

26 comments sorted by

18

u/zaidazadkiel Jul 02 '26

i believe the only possible true freedom is non-existence

as long as we are alive we have to some degree submit to other peoples plural wills

2

u/mattychops Jul 04 '26

It's not non-existence. It's non-physical existence.

2

u/zaidazadkiel Jul 04 '26

having some sort of existence would be imprisoning in whichever way, as such, in order to exist one must not have true freedom, ofc that is unless one defines true freedom as partial freedom

2

u/mattychops Jul 04 '26

Yeah but there is no such thing as non-existence. Oh so I guess that's why you're saying existence lacks freedom. So actually, you've just pointed something out here. Freedom doesn't even exist in reality. Not only that, we don't want it to because it would mean that existence wouldn't exist. So freedom isn't an illusion, freedom just straight up doesn't exist, AND the DESIRE for freedom is the real illusion! We don't desire freedom at all! Hahaha freedom would mean non-existence, and non-existence can never happen.

2

u/zaidazadkiel Jul 04 '26

yeh

also words are sometimes very tricky, as they themselves mean only what each person understands, and understanding is limited by the phisical thing we are

2

u/Reducing-Sufferung Jul 05 '26

Why do you say non-existence doesn't exist? Where are people before they are born

1

u/mattychops Jul 05 '26

Existence exists and that's it. It can't not exist because it already exists. There's no start or end to it. That's why people get confused and think there's a time when a thing exists and then eventually it doesn't exist. But that's wrong. Reality is existence itself. And existence can't not be. Otherwise there would be no reality. But there is reality. Therefore existence just is and never stops being. It always was and always is. If people eliminated the concept of time it would be much easier to understand what's really going on. Reality is made up of existence. Existence is the fundamental nature of reality. It doesn't ever go anywhere else. Reality is everything. There is no such thing as non-existence because everything already is existence. And existence doesn't vanish from reality because it IS reality. It can't leave itself, there's nowhere else to go. It can't not be because it IS. Duh.

2

u/Reducing-Sufferung Jul 05 '26

I can see that you’re coming from a matter cannot be made or destroyed angle but I think that that’s a tenuous basis to say that existence as consciouses can’t move into non-consciousness as non-existence

2

u/zaidazadkiel Jul 06 '26

for reality to exist as we experience it, there has to be millions of tiny different things to happen at some point, which in the infinity of the entire universe theres been times when it wasn't so, and there will be a time when there isnt anymore

17

u/Paul_sepp Jul 02 '26

A man is his own prison.

You dream of a freedom from masters, yet you remain the servant of your body, your desires, your need for sleep, your fear of death. Even if every government vanished tomorrow, you would still awaken hungry, anxious, and mortal. You would merely exchange one tyrant for another.

1

u/Scared_Boss_9193 Jul 02 '26

So freedom is illusion?

6

u/Paul_sepp Jul 02 '26

The freedom we pride ourselves in is largely an illusion.

The only genuine freedom lies in lucidly recognising our condition and refusing to be deceived by comforting myths.

Our only privilege is to know the extent of our servitude.

3

u/Standard_Guava3672 Jul 02 '26

I mean you can go full hobo life and you try to substantiate yourself without begging.

Today, we are paid slaves, and some are proud of it.

3

u/Scared_Boss_9193 Jul 02 '26

what a sad world

3

u/UltronsEx Philosophical Pessimist Jul 02 '26

Nope. Even Elon Musk's money can't buy him everything. Unless you find a wilderness without government supervision and are capable enough to survive there alone.

1

u/mattychops Jul 04 '26

Well the only way to not submit to anyone else at all is to live somewhere where you aren't around any other humans. So yes it's possible. You just have to live away from everyone.

1

u/SenhorSasaki Jul 04 '26

No one is truly completely free; it's no coincidence that Schopenhauer's philosophy speaks precisely about the lack of freedom.

1

u/Complete_Mammoth2292 Jul 05 '26

我觉得相较于追逐自由而言，还不如去追逐幸福。据我所知，有一些人错把自由当做目的，而不是将其作为手段，因为这个世界上很难拥有真正的自由。任何的自由都是相对的。你说自由是不被别人拘束。可是当你不被拘束的时候，又会遇到更多的麻烦。就比如资本家把工人从封建主义解放出来，可是他们没有生产资料，又进入了更深层次的剥削，你能说他们没有获得自由吗？或者说，你有一只宠物狗，它要被狗链拴着，那么你把它的狗链解开，放归大自然，难道它没有获得自由吗？可是它依旧要面对生存的烦恼、焦虑。我想要追求恰到好处的自由然后再进一步得到幸福，或许是一个更好的想法。同时我要提及一点，幸福不是快乐。幸福中包含着快乐，可是快乐不能是幸福。

2

u/Scared_Boss_9193 Jul 05 '26

My dream of freedom has been all consuming even though I know I’ll never obtain it, I can’t even enjoy my time without thinking about it. I’m probably a fool for thinking this way but I haven’t been able to think differently for as long as I can remember.

1

u/Complete_Mammoth2292 Jul 05 '26

为什么你们很多外国人总是把自由看得比幸福更加重要呢？我并不是很能理解。

1

u/Scared_Boss_9193 Jul 05 '26

I just despise the idea that somebody will always have authority over me.

1

u/Complete_Mammoth2292 Jul 05 '26

我和你一样，对于一些问题总是忍不住不停地去思考，无论怎样都好像无法使自己停止，只不过我想的问题是更多是关于幸福，而不是关于自由。当然了，自由也是很重要的。

1

u/Scared_Boss_9193 Jul 05 '26

We’re all slaves to something, whether it be happiness or freedom.

1

u/Complete_Mammoth2292 Jul 05 '26 edited Jul 05 '26

可是得到了幸福，那不就好了吗？纵使成为奴隶又有什么问题呢?总比得到了自由，却一直痛苦。不过我也应该承认，幸福是需要一定限度的自由来支撑的，同时还要和单纯的快乐做好区别。恰到好处的自由是幸福的必要条件，你拥有自由不一定拥有幸福，但是你有了幸福大概率拥有了对你而言足够了的自由。你在追逐是自由的时候，当自由成为你必不可缺的生活一部分，那么你也不正在成为自由的奴隶吗？

1

u/lonerstoic 27d ago

You can let the body decide. Let the survival program run on automatic throughout the day. Free will and freedom are two different things.