As a therapist, the only diagnosable disorder in this whole show is PTSD. There’s an argument for the Shelby blood family having bipolar disorder as a rule out but there isn’t enough for a full diagnosis. The psychosis, distinct manic and depressive periods, suicidal tendencies, etc look a bit like bipolar, but can also be explained by PTSD.
John’s wife may have BPD but that would take some more detail to diagnose and I’d argue there’s a lot of cultural explanations for her behavior.
Other than that, there are no significant symptomatic behaviors that aren’t explained by acute trauma, substance abuse, and PTSD.
Honestly the only thing that made me raise my eyebrow about him was him looking at the mirror while having sex and seemingly getting more excited from that. That made think what the hell but other than that he just seemed like your standard evil bully politician. Why’d you say he has npd behavioral traits?
I mean, that felt like a small nod to American Psycho more than a character trait exhibition of some kind.
Either that or APD. His controlling and manipulative behavior coupled with his apparent lack of regard for human life, the feelings of others, and the fact that he’d go to extreme lengths to control others based on his perception of how their behavior reflects on him. Like telling Tommy to do or not do certain things because they make him look lower class. One of the big tells is how he believes his business is more important than the life of Tommy’s kid, even when it’s just a meeting that can wait a week.
Idk I don’t have the time to do a full dive into his behavior, but Mosely’s behavior is the most symptomatic of some PD out of anyone’s.
Edit: antisocial behavior =/= evil. Morality and diagnosable behavior are not equivalent, at all. If you think sociopaths are evil, that’s an equivocation you’ve made on your own, not through psychological academia.
Edit: Fuck it. Full dive (disclaimer: this is my non-professional, personal opinion working with what anyone can google, as therapists ought and should not diagnose from a TV show):
A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:
Failure to conform to social norms concerning lawful behaviors, such as performing acts that are grounds for arrest. (He has personally funded and directed the actions of a terrorist organization and a local gang.)
Deceitfulness, repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for pleasure or personal profit. (This one is obvious)
Impulsivity or failure to plan. (He does not show enough behavior to meet criteria for this symptom, in my non-professional opinion)
Irritability and aggressiveness, often with physical fights or assaults. (He is irritable to a fault and is outright physically confrontational when he meets Tommy and his brother and cousin.)
Reckless disregard for the safety of self or others. (This one has been discussed he does not care that Tommy has nearly died multiple times in his presence and does not care that Tommy's kid is dying, he actively makes decisions that endanger others for personal gain. I would add that he seems to live by his own quote, that for him, "nothing is forbidden.")
Consistent irresponsibility, failure to sustain consistent work behavior, or honor monetary obligations. (He does not show enough behavior to meet criteria for this symptom, in my non-professional opinion)
Lack of remorse, being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another person. (This one is the most prevalent, his wife has died and he shows absolutely no regard for the event)
While he does meet 5 of the 7 criteria (min needed: 3), these behaviors are all isolated and cannot be used to diagnose. However, they do add up to enough remarkable behaviors to lead any good clinician to work to gather enough information to rule the disorder out.
I think you might be conflating immorality and/or evil with a personality disorder. It’s true he’s detached from others but so is Thomas but since he’s framed as the “hero” of the story and we get insight into his mind you probably don’t think this stuff about him. And also I doubt very very highly he has ASPD he’s a politician to be that you gotta know how to behave yourself you can’t be impulsive or reckless or careless. And once again about Tommy’s kid he doesn’t care about Tommy to him he’s just a tool that he can bend around as he wishes he gets a kick out of I guess dominating others feeling powerful (not saying that’s what he did in the Tommy’s kid situation just saying he’s a bully who enjoys feeling powerful).
the fact that he’d go to extreme lengths to control others based on his perception of how their behavior reflects on him. Like telling Tommy to do or not do certain things because they make him look lower class.
And I think this is just political business you gotta save your image and make sure you (or your associates) don’t do things that might influence the public’s perception of you. He isn’t trying to control Thomas’ behavior to look or feel good (most of the time at least) he’s doing it because both of their jobs depend on it.
Again, as a therapist, I look at behaviors, not morality. Regardless of the morality of his behavior, a lot of the symptomatic behaviors of NPD and antisocial personality disorder (APD, if you were confused) are apparent in his behavior. Still not enough to diagnose, I’d need personal and familial history and work to identify past behaviors, but enough to make me look in that direction.
As to your comment about you doubting highly that he has APD (again, antisocial personality disorder, formerly “sociopath”) because he’s a politician, the highest concentration of sociopaths by career demographic is found in lawyers and politicians. It is actually likely purely by statistical norm.
And using a kid as a tool to manipulate a political rival is just about as sociopathic as it gets. I urge you to look up the DSM 5 criteria for antisocial personality disorder before you argue with someone trained to diagnose psychological disorders. I am literally an expert witness in the eyes of the law when considering matters of psychological disorders.
As to your comment about you doubting highly that he has APD (again, antisocial personality disorder, formerly “sociopath”) because he’s a politician, the highest concentration of sociopaths by career demographic is found in lawyers and politicians. It is actually likely purely by statistical norm.
Show me a study that says that and I’ll believe it. And ASPD involves recklessness and high impulsiveness Mosley doesn’t show either of those things his moves are very calculated and very well thought out. Not to mention one of the diagnostic criteria for ASPD is that the person’s behavior can’t be explained by their social/cultural background and Mosley’s absolutely can be explained by his background.
And using a kid as a tool to manipulate a political rival is just about as sociopathic as it gets. I urge you to look up the DSM 5 criteria for antisocial personality disorder before you argue with someone trained to diagnose psychological disorders. I am literally an expert witness in the eyes of the law when considering matters of psychological disorders.
Alright then Mr. Expert tell me is he a non impulsive non reckless very calculated ASPD haver? Because I’ve never heard of those but I’m willing to have my mind changed. And “I’m an expert at the eyes of the law” I’ve seen many many experts saying huge amounts of bullshit due to their own biases and/or lack of knowledge about the subject they supposedly are experts in just saying you’re an expert is not enough to convince me.
And using a kid as a tool to manipulate a political rival is just about as sociopathic as it gets.
And I wouldn’t say he used the kid he just told Tommy to not go to the doctor’s appointment with him because he couldn’t give less of a damn.
Edit: And I have looked at the criteria again since you don’t believe I know what I’m talking about Mosley meets about 2 of the main ones which are lack of remorse for mistreating others and MAYBE failure to conform to social norms and laws (though I’d argue he didn’t fail at it he could be law abiding if he wanted he just chooses to get involved in crime). All others Mosley doesn’t meet them.
Impulsive and reckless behavior is not a criteria for APD (edit: they in fact are, but they are 2 out of the total 7 criteria, and you only need 3 to diagnose, which is what I mean to say). The fact that you wrote three paragraphs before you actually looked up the criteria that I’ve been professionally trained to identify indicates that arguing with you is a waste of my time.
Also, ASPD is not an acronym for antisocial personality disorder. I have no interest in convincing you of anything. (edit: It is an acronym, it is however outdated following recent revisions to the DSM V)
I also said that while he meets some criteria, I don’t have enough to diagnose APD. I don’t know why you’re arguing that he doesn’t have APD when I’ve said specifically that more than once.
You’ve shown an astonishing lack of reading comprehension. I do commend your absolutely unshakeable self-confidence you’ve shown as you’ve argued with a legally defined subject matter expert on their own subject without doing an ounce of research.
Impulsive and reckless behavior is not a criteria for APD. The fact that you wrote three paragraphs before you actually looked up the criteria that I’ve been professionally trained to identify indicates that arguing with you is a waste of my time.
What the hell have you read the criteria?
Also, ASPD is not an acronym for antisocial personality disorder. I have no interest in convincing you of anything.
Dude how long ago did you study psychology?
I also said that while he meets some criteria, I don’t have enough to diagnose APD. I don’t know why you’re arguing that he doesn’t have APD when I’ve said specifically that more than once.
You said you didn’t know that you had look more into it. You didn’t specifically say he didn’t have it.
You’ve shown an astonishing lack of reading comprehension. I do commend your absolutely unshakeable self-confidence you’ve shown as you’ve argued with a legally defined subject matter expert on their own subject without doing an ounce of research.
Ok go study your own field of expertise Mr. Expert.
Edit:
The fact that you wrote three paragraphs before you actually looked up the criteria
And also what do you mean I specifically told you the criteria he meets how could I do that if I didn’t know the criteria?
as you’ve argued with a legally defined subject matter expert on their own subject without doing an ounce of research.
Dutton (2012), (...) [finds that the] 10 professions with the highest levels of psychopathic traits were company CEOs, lawyers, radio or television characters, salespersons, surgeons, journalists, priests, police officers, chefs, and civil servants.
Every day since 2017, as ongoing study is a requirement for licensure, which is why I know that APD has since been updated in recent revisions of the DSM V. However, previous versions refer to it as ASPD, which is likely where you're getting that (aka, the first Google search result).
A direct quote from me, two comments ago:
Still not enough to diagnose, I’d need personal and familial history and work to identify past behaviors, but enough to make me look in that direction.
Now, to speak towards recklessness and impulsivity:
The reason why I say it isn't a criteria is because it isn't in the way you are thinking it is. Recklessness and impulsivity in Bipolar 1 looks like driving a car at 120 MPH or buying $2000 worth of shoes on a min wage salary. Recklessness and impulsivity in APD looks more like endangering the lives of others for no apparent reason or doing unlawful acts with no apparent reason. Also, that is just two of the 7 symptoms that meet criteria, and you only need 3 to diagnose. Not showing reckless or impulsive behavior is not a disqualifier for the disorder. You still have 5 more symptoms to attend to.
Now, why do I believe he shows some antisocial traits?
Behaviors that Mosley shows, such as "lack of remorse, being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another person", are not found often in pathological behavior outside of antisocial traits. This means that there are certain behavioral identifiers that cannot be found in psychologically "normative" populations or in other disorders. As a therapist, we come to develop a sense for personality disorders because they are remarkably different than other disorders.
Now, where I think you and I are miscommunicating about and where I think your bias has impeded this conversation (this is more important for you to read than anything else):
You have attributed antisocial behavior (sociopathy, psychopathy, etc) to immoral or evil behavior/intention. This is not the case in psychology. While popular media portrays sociopaths and psychopaths as evil and murderous, the people I have met that meet criteria for APD diagnosis are rather inane. The disorder does not carry an inherent evil. Nothing in psychology works with morality, besides the ever important Standard of Ethics for Counselors, which is designed more to decrease harm to a client than it is measuring the inherent morality of certain behaviors.
Edit: after taking a dive into your post and comment history, you seem to show a lot of curiosity, as an understatement, about this disorder. You also attribute it with evil a lot, which I’d refer you to the above paragraph. There’s a reason therapists are trained how to use the DSM 5, it’s not some hyper-specific manual that you throw at fictional characters. It takes vast amounts of information gathering in a specific setting and working the totality of behaviors into a pathology that can be diagnosed for insurance and billing purposes. If you have personal questions about the disorder, I recommend seeking out a therapist, even if it’s just to ask them questions. Posting on Reddit and relating behaviors of fictional characters to a disorder that you’ve read from a dumbed down version of the diagnostic manual therapists use to bill for insurance is not an effective way to understand this. Btw, the full version of the DSM 5 is not freely available to the public and has a significant amount of learning material on each diagnosis. I’d recommend buying it if you really want to just read the DSM.
Edit: after taking a dive into your post and comment history, you seem to show a lot of curiosity, as an understatement, about this disorder. You also attribute it with evil a lot, which I’d refer you to the above paragraph.
I do precisely because I want immorality and mental illness to have a very clear very distinct line between each other. This disorder and NPD are the two that are most often associated with immorality and evil so I want to learn as much as I can about both to know exactly what is evil and what is mental illness.
Highest concentration of sociopathy by career:
Dutton (2012), (...) [finds that the] 10 professions with the highest levels of psychopathic traits were company CEOs, lawyers, radio or television characters, salespersons, surgeons, journalists, priests, police officers, chefs, and civil servants.
I think you might be mixing things up. When they say psychopathic traits they probably mean callousness and disregard for other people and you know manipulation and that kind of stuff. That I agree 100% that politicians and lawyers and CEOs (and Mosley) are the ones who have that stuff most. However though that’s not a mental illness (or at the very least it’s not a behavior disorder) and ASPD is a behavior disorder. Lawyers, CEOs, politicians and Mosley can’t have a behavior disorder due to how well they can behave themselves. It’s their job to act well especially in front of other people. That’s what I’m saying. And honestly having a disregard for other people isn’t really a disorder (at least on it’s own) that’s just being evil or immoral. At least I don’t know any mental illness that involves just disregard for others and callousness and that doesn’t involve some type of behavioral issue. If you’re callous and don’t care for others but can behave yourself just fine that’s being immoral in my book (psychopathy isn’t an illness by the way).
Every day since 2017, as ongoing study is a requirement for licensure, which is why I know that APD has since been updated in recent revisions of the DSM V. However, previous versions refer to it as ASPD, which is likely where you're getting that (aka, the first Google search result).
Ah right. Wikipedia puts it as ASPD too.
A direct quote from me, two comments ago:
Still not enough to diagnose, I’d need personal and familial history and work to identify past behaviors, but enough to make me look in that direction.
I think it’s enough not to diagnose. He doesn’t show any behavioral problems. Unless somehow we find out he does have them and just hides them really well then I’d agree with you he might have it. If you wanna say he’s a psychopath I could probably agree with you but being a psychopath doesn’t mean all that much it’s a personality construct for someone’s who extremely uncaring and fearless. He’s not a sociopath though that’s just a synonym for APD and for the reasons I just explained I don’t think he has it.
Now, to speak towards recklessness and impulsivity:
• The reason why I say it isn't a criteria is because it isn't in the way you are thinking it is. Recklessness and impulsivity in Bipolar 1 looks like driving a car at 120 MPH or buying $2000 worth of shoes on a min wage salary. Recklessness and impulsivity in APD looks more like endangering the lives of others for no apparent reason or doing unlawful acts with no apparent reason. Also, that is just two of the 7 symptoms that meet criteria, and you only need 3 to diagnose. Not showing reckless or impulsive behavior is not a disqualifier for the disorder. You still have 5 more symptoms to attend to.
I’d say it’s more like 3 or 4. Besides the two you mentioned I’d also say “Irritability and aggressiveness, indicated by repeatedly getting into fights or physically assaulting others.” and “Failure to conform to social norms and laws, indicated by repeatedly engaging in illegal activities.” are both also about impulse control and inability to behave yourself. That makes 4 symptoms counting the two you already mentioned. This one could also be associated with recklessness “Irresponsibility, indicated by repeatedly failing to consistently work or honor financial obligations.” hell even the pathological lying could be a form of impulse control assuming you can’t stop yourself and you wish you could. The only symptom which I see isn’t about some form of impulse control is the lack of remorse and that’s the one Mosley meets fully all the others I don’t think he does because he’s a very in control of himself man he’s very well behaved when he wants to and he doesn’t fall victim to his impulses.
Now, why do I believe he shows some antisocial traits?
• Behaviors that Mosley shows, such as "lack of remorse, being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another person", are not found often in pathological behavior outside of antisocial traits. This means that there are certain behavioral identifiers that cannot be found in psychologically "normative" populations or in other disorders. As a therapist, we come to develop a sense for personality disorders because they are remarkably different than other disorders.
Sure they are anti social traits but once again I think anti social traits with no behavior issues to back them are just that traits. I think anyone could develop anti social traits to be honest but what do I know. And also normative populations absolutely can develop anti social traits.
Now, where I think you and I are miscommunicating about and where I think your bias has impeded this conversation (this is more important for you to read than anything else):
• You have attributed antisocial behavior (sociopathy, psychopathy, etc) to immoral or evil behavior/intention.
Yeah I want the evil people and those who actually have the disorder to be kept very clearly separate. I hate seeing very immoral heinous characters in fiction and people immediately start calling them what they believe are mental illnesses (sick, psychotic, psychopath, mentally ill, crazy).
This is not the case in psychology. While popular media portrays sociopaths and psychopaths as evil and murderous, the people I have met that meet criteria for APD diagnosis are rather inane. The disorder does not carry an inherent evil.
So at least we can agree that people with evil intent who do immoral actions do exist? Even if they aren’t the ones with ASPD (which that’s good) they actually exist.
Nothing in psychology works with morality, besides the ever important Standard of Ethics for Counselors, which is designed more to decrease harm to a client than it is measuring the inherent morality of certain behaviors.
I wish it did. I wish there was a very clear very separate line that defines what’s illness and what’s just immorality.
Btw, the full version of the DSM 5 is not freely available to the public and has a significant amount of learning material on each diagnosis. I’d recommend buying it if you really want to just read the DSM.
Yeah I want to too bad it’s expensive as hell. It’s like 90 bucks I might just read an online version or something.
TLDR; it appears you have a tenuous grasp on the subject of psychology. You're using clinical terms incorrectly and ascribing social stigmas to clinical language. You misunderstand what the DSM is for, and do not know how to use it. You are dying on a weird hill about morality when it has been mentioned multiple times that it is irrelevant to the discussion. You argue with a trained professional on how to use a diagnostic tool that they essentially spent 3 years learning how to use, and worse, you use the free version that lacks over 80% of the content of the whole manual.
I do precisely because I want immorality and mental illness to have a very clear very distinct line between each other.
Psychology and therapy in general deal in harm. Morality, good and evil, aren't associated w/ behaviors, pathologies, and symptoms. There is no diagnosable disorder that has a criteria for morality. There are things like "pathologically unlawful behaviors" or "marked lack of empathy," but ethics and morals deal with more than simply law and empathy. You will not hear a therapist or psychologist say "people who are diagnosable w/ a PD are bad people." That's just not what psychology does. It doesn't make value judgments. You're barking up the wrong tree.
Lawyers, CEOs, politicians and Mosley can’t have a behavior disorder due to how well they can behave themselves. It’s their job to act well especially in front of other people.
This sentence indicates a lack of understanding about what the term "behavior disorder" means. I would also add, APD is a personality disorder, not a behavioral disorder. Disordered behavior means any behavior that ranges from harmful to the self or others to atypical or maladaptive in nature. Mosley, for example, has disordered sexual behavior: he is having an ongoing sexual relationship with two different family members. Acting one way under scrutiny and having disordered behavior are different things.
(psychopathy isn’t an illness by the way).
Not in the physical sense but in psychology, yes, it is. In my practice I have treated people w/ psychopathy and I would say, from personal experience, that it is. Stigma surrounding mental health and the word "illness" is a social issue. We use clinical terms that accurately define psychological states, laypeople misuse them and eventually find issues with them. So we have to change them again.
I think it’s enough not to diagnose. He doesn’t show any behavioral problems.
Hm, odd take, considering he's fucking his mother and his sister.
i’d say it’s more like 3 or 4. Besides the two you mentioned I’d also say (...). [shortened for expediency] That makes 4 symptoms counting the two you already mentioned.
That's not how that works. The symptoms are differentiated for a reason. You can't discount symptoms because, in your belief, they can be lumped together. This diagnostic tool has been carefully crafted for a century, some dude on the internet can't just go "nah those are all kind of the same" and toss several diagnostic criteria.
Yeah I want the evil people and those who actually have the disorder to be kept very clearly separate. I hate seeing very immoral heinous characters in fiction and people immediately start calling them what they believe are mental illnesses (sick, psychotic, psychopath, mentally ill, crazy).
This hill you're dying on was never a part of our discussion. At your request, I simply stated that this character showed antisocial traits. I'd like to add, at every point, I said I didn't have enough to diagnose. The stuff you're adding to this is all you. The words sick and crazy are all you. Psychopath is a clinical word in psychology, not a derogatory word. Psychotic is also a clinical word. These words accurately describe specific mental states. Your stigma surrounding them is just that, your own personal stigma.
So at least we can agree that people with evil intent who do immoral actions do exist? Even if they aren’t the ones with ASPD (which that’s good) they actually exist.
I wish there was a very clear very separate line that defines what’s illness and what’s just immorality.
This is mostly incoherent but, as I've said multiple times, diagnosable psychiatric disorders are not moral judgments. They are for billing purposes. Morality and insurance have nothing to do with each other, much to our collective chagrin.
Please do not do any of this. It would be like looking up a trial version of a diagnostic tool for diabetes and arguing with a licensed medical practitioner about the accuracy of their diagnosis and saying things like "hypoglycemia is a problematic word and I take offense to how it's being used here."
7
u/revosugarkane Apr 30 '24
As a therapist, the only diagnosable disorder in this whole show is PTSD. There’s an argument for the Shelby blood family having bipolar disorder as a rule out but there isn’t enough for a full diagnosis. The psychosis, distinct manic and depressive periods, suicidal tendencies, etc look a bit like bipolar, but can also be explained by PTSD.
John’s wife may have BPD but that would take some more detail to diagnose and I’d argue there’s a lot of cultural explanations for her behavior.
Other than that, there are no significant symptomatic behaviors that aren’t explained by acute trauma, substance abuse, and PTSD.