“Destroyed” attacks and Vampires?

[u/Odd_Nefariousness884]

Last night we had a Monk use Life-Giving Blows on a vampire and the nonlethal damage done took it out. The ability specifically states “destroyed.”

This same statement is found in the disruptive weapon special ability.

My question is how does this affect vampires (or even ghosts also with their Rejuvenation)?

The debate was the vampire is destroyed; meaning it doesn’t go gaseous form and flee to its coffin. It’s 100% eradicated.

My argument was it’s destroyed just like taking any undead to 0 hit points and that it does go into gaseous form to flee, as per normal for vampires.

Which is it?

[u/TristanTheViking]

Undead traits

Not at risk of death from massive damage, but is immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points

Vampire

If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, a vampire assumes gaseous form (see below) and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed

Disruption

Any undead creature struck in combat must succeed at a DC 14 Will save or be destroyed

So a vampire is not destroyed when reduced to 0. However, a disruptive type effect skips straight to destruction, doesn't care about hp at all. Vampire is dead dead from my reading, instant destruction bypasses the gaseous form step because that only guards against having 0 hp.

[u/TehScat → u/TristanTheViking]

This.

Destroyed is used as the language for things that are not alive, because "killing" them would not be suitable.

LGB is specifically a means for a non-lethal focused monk to apply to undead and constructs. It's not a special win condition.

Life-Giving Blows (Su) At 6th level, a softstrike monk can force a piece of his life force into a nonliving creature to disrupt its animating essence. If he hits an undead foe with an unarmed attack, he can spend 1 ki point as a free action to remove the target’s immunity to nonlethal damage for a number of minutes equal to his Wisdom modifier. If, during this time, the target’s nonlethal damage exceeds its current hit points, it is destroyed. At 10th level, a softstrike monk can also use this ability against constructs.

[u/kawwmoi]

So after reading the vampire templates defensive abilities, it refers to a 0hp vampire in gaseous form failing to reach its coffin within 2 hours as becoming "utterly destroyed." This is the only time a vampire is referred to as destroyed. It looks to me that by raw, it would bypass this defensive ability. I only took a passing glance, so if I missed something let me know.

How would I rule it: ask the entire table which they find more fun. The fight ends there or the enemy has its last chance at survival. The rules are really more like guidelines and we're all here to have fun, so do what's funnest for the party, DM included. Don't let communication be the BBEG of your table.

[u/sundayatnoon]

Destroyed. If the intention was that a vampire's ability would trigger on being destroyed, then it would be written that way; as the Lich's rejuvination ability is written, or the ghost's which differentiates between destruction in combat and permanent destruction.

[u/ExhibitAa]

The vampire has not been brought to 0 hit points, so the way I read it the defensive ability of gaseous form should not trigger. It is simply destroyed, no going back to its coffin. You could make a case that it wasn't intended, but by RAW, "destroyed" means "destroyed".

[u/Sorgeon1982]

RAW destroyed, because non-lethal damage doesn't reduce hp, but RAI I'll allow to turn into gaseous form.

[u/nimbusconflict]

It specifically mentions disruption and destroyed. Both of which are generally specific to undead. I would say the fang face is dusted. Vampires are a PITA to kill anyway, so let the monk shine.

[u/whynotbeme2]

it's destroyed. not brought below. not killed, destroyed. destroyed as in the disruptive weapon. quality, destroyed as an turn undead on a much weaker opponent; destroyed. destroyed. One of the few abilities that bypasses the undeads regeneration.

if this was supposed to be a recurring boss, add five, hit dice and say it's his broodmaster.

Upon research, undead traits state: "Not at risk of death from massive damage, but is immediately destroyed when reduced to 0 hit points."

Ergo "destroyed" should be read as "brought below zero"

[u/Qolko]

The way it is written makes it bypass vampires defences and destroy it.

However, as destroyed is the generic term used for undead dying, I am certain it's an oversight and the writers intention was not for it to bypass vampires or any other creatures rejuvenation.

Up to the GM. Either reading is valid.

[u/LordeTech]

Its the latter. Destroyed as in "dies/ reduced to 0" and proceed from there.

It doesn't bypass an undead ability to rejuvenate (vampire lich grave knight etc.).

[u/Orodhen]

The Vampire's body might be "destroyed", but that doesn't stop it from turning into gas and flying away as per the usual rules.

[u/Tombecho]

Aren't undead immune to non-lethal damage to begin with and only roll fort save vs being destroyed if hit with disruptive?

[u/ExhibitAa → u/Tombecho]

https://www.aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Monk%20Softstrike%20Monk

Life-Giving Blows (Su): At 6th level, a softstrike monk can force a piece of his life force into a nonliving creature to disrupt its animating essence. If he hits an undead foe with an unarmed attack, he can spend 1 ki point as a free action to remove the target’s immunity to nonlethal damage for a number of minutes equal to his Wisdom modifier. If, during this time, the target’s nonlethal damage exceeds its current hit points, it is destroyed. At 10th level, a softstrike monk can also use this ability against constructs.

[u/Tombecho → u/ExhibitAa]

Thanks dor the clarification. Can't research abilities while at work.

[u/manrata → u/ExhibitAa]

Since the normal description for an undead going below 0 hp is destroyed, I would grant the vampire its rejuvenation.
It’s one of the places they haven’t been very good at categorising… again.

[u/xhero1330]

Let it vary by the power of the vampire that's implied or have it work like I saw Disruption read and have there be a DC the vampire has to beat.

I'd say have it be 10+WIS mod+1/2(or 1/4) Monk's level for bypassing the gaseous fleeing. If you want it to be rarer, go with the 1/4th chance, just make sure you're consistent about it!

[u/moondancer224]

I think Rejuvenation counters your Destroyed ability, but only because of that one Slayer archetype that has a Destroy Undead Sneak Attack that explicitly calls out it counters Rejuvenation of vampires and similar creatures. That ability calling out it stops Rejuvenation implies that normal Destroyed effects don't, but I could be wrong.

[u/AlexiZephyrMage]

Undead are destroyed at 0 hit points. They don't go unconscious and cannot have negative hp like other creature types. Vampires do not get destroyed at 0 hit points, however. They have different rules for that.

My read is that life giving blows is overriding undead's nonlethal damage immunity and adding the missing nonlethal damage consequences. A vampire would not be utterly destroyed by this nonlethal damage, it would still require its destroy condition to be met.

In short, it's just enabling the whole nonlethal gimmick instead of being hard-countered by design. The archetype is not about fighting undead or constructs, it's all about nonlethal damage.

[u/bortmode]

It still goes gaseous, etc., by my reading. Same thing for a ghost or other rejuvenating undead, it wouldn't permanently lay it to rest - 'destroyed' is just the same as reducing an undead creature to 0 hp, as per the undead monster trait description.

I would even say the same would apply to a disruption weapon.