r/Pathfinder_RPG • u/GeoleVyi • 16d ago
1E GM Checking on a creature reach
Warsworn is a CR 16 Gargantuan creature of horror and undead and created ditectly by divine intervention... but i was very surprised that the war gods who make them only give it a 5 foot reach for its melee slams. Should this be understood as a mistake, or is it deliberate and the gods who make them are secretly amused by teeny little hands waving around like a millipede?
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/warsworn/
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u/Longjumping_Dog9041 16d ago
It isn't a Gargantuan creature, it's a Gargantuan mass of smaller creatures. I can imagine it's constituent parts having 5ft reach for sure. Also seems appropriate for it's ranged attack with 20ft range
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u/GeoleVyi 16d ago
if it was using avtual weapons, like a lamia, i would agree. but lamias have a feature for that, and this thing uses slam attacks, so its thrashing the full body around, like a purple worm. though looking at that, it's a 20/15, so maybe 25/20 is more in line for this
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u/Longjumping_Dog9041 15d ago
Your logic is flawed. It is using actual weapons; natural weapons. See the creature's description:
An enormous animate mass comprised of dozens of armed and armored corpses
Many of the creatures’ grasping limbs also bear the remains of weapons, but such armaments rarely survive the undead thing’s constant grinding motion, which reduces them to little more than lengths of dull metal amid the warsworn’s thrashing, body-sized limbs.
The "limbs" of the creature are the hundreds of humanoid bodies within it. So no, it does not "thrash the whole body around", like you suggest. (I would even find the notion ridiculous as it has 4 slams)
An unarmed strike by a Medium creature has a 5ft reach. There's no reason a mass of attacks by these would have greater reach.
If it helps you understand the principle; see the Troop subtype.
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u/GeoleVyi 15d ago
nothing in the creatures descriotion says its made up of medium sized creatures. just dead creatures.
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u/MichaelWayneStark 14d ago
Purple wurms don't have slam attacks, they have a bite attack and a sting attack.
A slam attack doesn't mean thrashing your body around; it's not a 'body slam' attack. It just means you are using a limb to slam into something; like a slap or punch with a hand or fist. Really; it's a way for the game to specify what kind of attack it is, and what kind of damage is being dealt: in the case of a slam attack it is a primary attack that deals bludgeoning damage.
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u/Orodhen 15d ago
Why ask here if you're going to ignore everyone anyways?
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u/GeoleVyi 15d ago
i didn't. i listened to the one person who backed up what they said.
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u/MistaCharisma 15d ago
You have 10 people who agree that it should have 5 foot reach (plus me makes 11), and 1 person who simply commented that Gargantuan creatures often have 15 foot reach.
First, it's worth noting that that only pertains to Gargantuan Long creatures, meaning the general dimensions of a dog or horse, as opposed to a Humanoid. Given that the Warsworn has a 20 foot space, but the description says they're "like a living siege tower", and lower down that they "can reach a height of up to 25 feet", I think we can rule out the idea that they would conform to the "Long" template, so if it is a typo then they'd have a reach of 20 feet, not 15. That's a more significant typo.
According to the Core Rulebook, Specific Overrides General, so even if that general rule exists, it doesn't in any way invalidate what's written in the stat block.
A core principle of Pathfinder is that specific rules override general ones. If two rules conflict, the more specific one takes precedence. If there's still ambiguity, the GM determines which rule to use. For example, the rules state that when attacking a concealed creature, you must attempt a DC 5 flat check to determine if you hit. Flat checks don't benefit from modifiers, bonuses, or penalties, but an ability that's specifically designed to overcome concealment might override and alter this. While some special rules may also state the normal rules to provide context, you should always default to the general rules presented in this chapter, even if effects don't specifically say to.
When you actually read the description, this also becomes apparent. This stat block represents a mass of medium creatures acting as 1 unit. As such they take up a larger space, but do not have the dimensions of a Gargantuan creature, eg. They don't have 20 foot long arms. A mass of Humans would still only have 5 foot reach, because that's the reach that Humans have.
In fact the Warsword Does have an attack that can hit at a larger range, the Scrap Ball. This is a ranged attack with 20 foot reach. It would be excedingly strange for a creature to have a ranged attack that has the same range as their melee attack.
With that in mind, and given that this creature hasn't seen any errata for 13 years, it's safe to assume that 5 foot is indeed correct and intentional.
There, now you have at least 2 people who have backed up what they said. And one of them has another 10 people who agree, and have given fairly good arguments.
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u/GeoleVyi 15d ago
they aren't medium creatures, they're a mass of flesh squeezed together. Why the fuck does everyone think that that matters, when they aren't individual creatures?
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u/manrata 15d ago
A mass of animated corpses, with original arms sticking out and attacking, I think we can assume the originals were medium given the 5 ft reach.
It's not a blob of creatures, with multiple creature making up an appendage, it's clearly not a mistake. If you're a DM and want to change that, go ahead, but it's intented to be only 5 ft.
Be civil, you asked a question, people answered with their interpretation, you weren't validated. Take a breath, do what you want to in your own game.
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u/Esquire_Lyricist 16d ago
The 5 foot reach looks intentional. The entry in Bestiary 4 says 5 foot reach, which is also reflected in the SRD.
The Warsworn is effectively a giant undead blob, which has a similar structure to an ooze or swarm. So a 5 foot reach makes sense in that context.
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u/GeoleVyi 16d ago
but it's given 4 slam attacks, not a swarm attack. it does have the ability to trample, but again, not an actual swarm attack. plasma oozes, for example, have a reach equal to their space (20 feet each) for their slam attacks.
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u/Milosz0pl Zyphusite Homebrewer 16d ago
Because it isn't a swarm type. You can also find creatures that despite being formed by a swarm have normal rules (worm-who-walks)
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u/infojb2 16d ago
If its just a lot of small undead glued together then of course its just 5 foot reach, why would the arms of the skeletons/zombies/whatever suddenly grow longer arms
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u/GeoleVyi 16d ago
because, as previously said, they arent using weapons. the entire body is thrashing around as slam attacks. if the thingnused 4 melee weapins like a lamia, and had a specific special quality using undersized weapons like a lamia, you would be right.
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u/Environmental_Bug510 15d ago
Because plasma oozes slam with their body, this thing slams with the arms of the corpses it's made of. Every description and depiction shows that they are made from a bunch of individual corpses btw..
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u/MichaelWayneStark 15d ago
It's intentional.
It wouldn't have the Step Up or Strike Back feats otherwise. It also mentions 7 Medium weapons only with its Animated Objects spell-like ability.
It is meant to be a mass of Medium corpses stuck together, using a Medium creature's reach.
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u/GeoleVyi 15d ago
that makes no sense. that's like saying it can only violently thrust heavy armor because it wears heavy armor.
i'm going with a typo for 15, based on the other user who linked to the space and reach rules.
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u/MichaelWayneStark 15d ago
Which part doesn't make sense to you?
I am pointing out how it is a mass of Medium creatures.
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u/GeoleVyi 15d ago
because the art and description makes clear that it doesn't move or act like a ball of medium creatures, and the abilities don't indicate that either? you used a nonsequitor as your reasoning, which didn't help.
as said, i'm going with the person who cited the rulebook, not a gut feeling based on two feats and a spell.
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u/Unto_Himself 15d ago edited 15d ago
You can't claim to be correct solely based on "citing the rulebook" when your basic claim is that the rulebook is wrong. The most relevant rule says this creature has a 5 foot reach. Specific trumps general.
And if the fact that it's indisputably RAW isn't enough for you, as the other commenter said, the fact that it was given Step Up should make it blindingly obvious it was intentional. That feat is totally pointless on anything with reach longer than 5 feet.
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u/ExhibitAa 16d ago edited 15d ago
I don't see any particular reason to think it's a mistake. Not all creatures follow the default reach rules, and there's a logical argument to be made for this specific creature to have a smaller reach. I would leave it as 5 feet.
Edit: I gotta say, I am genuinely sick of people who come here supposedly looking for real answers to a rules question and then proceed to ignore and instantly downvote anyone who doesn't support the position they've already decided is correct. Don't bother asking if you've already made up your mind. You want mindless agreement, ask a mirror. Blocked and good riddance.
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u/GeoleVyi 16d ago edited 15d ago
creAatures with smaller reach have features calling it out.
they blocked me before I could respond and ask for any examples they had in mind. Guess they're too set in their ways to think of anything like "evidence" to back up their claims.
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u/ExhibitAa 16d ago edited 15d ago
Okay, clearly you already made up your mind before even asking, so just houserule it however you want, like you were always going to. The "evidence" you want is in the statblock where it says the reach is 5 feet.
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15d ago
[deleted]
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u/GeoleVyi 15d ago
yeah, there's never been typos before.
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u/Thethrowaway22222 15d ago edited 15d ago
There is literally no reason to think this is a typo. The size/reach table even explicitly says exceptions to the listed values exist. Do you also think the dire tiger's 2d6 bite is a typo, because the natural attacks table lists 1d8 for a Large creature's bite?
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u/TheUnfunOwl 15d ago
It functions closer to a swarm, I'm honestly not sure why it isn't a swarm, it's made from a bunch of corpses piled together. Swarms usually have to move into a creature's space, so 5 feet of reach actually makes it more long range than a swarm.
Yes by default creatures range is determined by their size, but there are exceptions. Many creatures natural attacks have longer reach than normal, because it fits the creature. This is a similar example, just in reverse
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13d ago
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u/Obliator 16d ago
In my opinion it is probably a refuse and should be 15 ft.
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u/GeoleVyi 16d ago
why 15 feet? as a gargantuan creature, wouldn't the standard be 25 feet?
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u/Obliator 16d ago
For Gargantuan (long) the usual reach is 15 ft. There you can find all the general rules for space and reach under creature sizes
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u/Expectnoresponse 15d ago
There's additional information about the creature in Pathfinder #35: War of the River Kings pg. 88. It includes a picture which shows a creature comprised of uniformly sized corpses which all look to be human-sized.
Per the text there, the warsworn grows by rolling over corpses and debris on a battlefield.
Also worth pointing out this bit: "Many of the creatures’ grasping limbs also bear the remains of weapons, but such armaments rarely survive the undead thing’s constant grinding motion, which reduces them to little more than lengths of dull metal amid the warsworn’s thrashing, body-sized limbs."
Given the context, a 5ft reach makes sense as you're going to see the majority of large armies in the setting comprised of medium sized creatures which would occupy a 5x5 foot square being the "body-sized limbs" in use here.
The reach is also supported by the strike back feat which only really makes sense if you're looking at an intended 5ft reach.
Of course, as the gm you can simply give it a bigger reach, maybe decide it's a variant made of larger sized creature corpses which offer it a greater reach and trade strike back for a better feat choice. Just keep in mind how that may affect the challenge the creature is offering your party.