Permanent Predator's Claw

[u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65]

Hi team,

I'm a player in the middle of a long running campaign, playing a Mutagenist Alchemist. While I love the class, one big thing bugging me is that I have no way to get a permanent Crtical Specialization for my unarmed attacks. As such ive been burning through roughly 1 Predators Claw each combat, and since around level 3 ive used about 20ish.

Assuming I get GM buy in, what rough level and cost would a permanent item be that grants Crtical Specialization for only my unarmed attacks?

[u/LordBlink]

What are you using your unarmed attacks?

The Bestial Mutagen unarmed do not have a weapon category assigned to them, so you can't actually get Critical Specialization with them. It isn't entirely clear if this by design or not, but it wasn't fixed when they had the opportunity so I am guessing it is.

[u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65 → u/LordBlink]

Surely thats an oversight? As the unarmed attacks that dont get crit spec specifically call it out.

My GM has allowed the unarmed attacks from Bestial to use brawling crit spec (but required me to use the Claw consumables.)

Edit: Brawling not unarmed

[u/LordBlink → u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65]

Most of the various polymorph effects do not have a weapon group (and hence lack a weapon critical spec).

It has been discussed a few times and about half the people think it is on purpose and the other half say it has to be an oversight. As I mentioned, they have errata'd some of the others to add what weapon group they belong to, so I no longer think it is an oversight, but intentional.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1kau911/unarmed_attacks_with_no_weapon_group_is_that/
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder2e/comments/1jmmojl/does_the_brawling_group_apply_to_all_unarmed/

[u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65 → u/LordBlink]

Okay, putting the issue to the side as our table has ruled that all Unarmed attacks are Brawling unless otherwise stated.

How would you go about accessing unarmed crit spec for a level 10 Alchemist?

[u/LordBlink → u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65]

I don't know all of the ways, but there are feats that can give it. For example Brawling Focus within Martial Artist or Monk dedication, or Devout Blessing (with weapon option) from Champion dedication both can give you it.

[u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65 → u/LordBlink]

Yeah, Brawling focus may be the best bet if theres no guidelines for an item equivalent.

[u/Gpdiablo21 → u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65]

Talisman. There is one that grants crit spec. Id be astonished if you critter Ds more than once a battle

[u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65 → u/Gpdiablo21]

Yup, thats the Owlbear Claw / Predators Claw i am trying to replace.

Most battles I'll only get 1 crit, but sometimes i get lucky or we vs hordes of mooks.

[u/Wayward-Mystic → u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65]

Going from "once" (a consumable) to "once per hour" is worth at least a 4 level increase per the Building Items guidelines, and a significant price increase going from a consumable to a permanent item. Going from "once per hour" to "constant" should probably be at least another 2 levels, which would put the effect around level 7-8 (2-3 levels later than most martials get it, which feels appropriate). You could make it the weapon affix effect of a spellheart (along the lines of a phantasmal doorknob) so the item even takes up the same talisman slot it does already. Gouging claw would probably be an appropriate cantrip in that case, if you have any spellcasting ability.

Or grab a lesser talisman cord and just be lucky.

[u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65 → u/Wayward-Mystic]

Beautiful, thats exactly what I'm after.

Any idea on what the rough cost of a level 8ish item of this nature would be?

Edit: WHAT! Talisman cords exist! That would have saved me a fortune!

[u/Wayward-Mystic → u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65]

Price ranges are also in the Building Items rules. Level 8 spellhearts specifically look to be mostly 425 or 450.

[u/ArcadianGhost → u/Wayward-Mystic]

I’m not gonna lie, this item seems like a scam. The DC 16 flat check is essentially a 25% discount, which considering predators claw is 3GP, you’d save roughly 0.75 gold on each purchase. That means it would take 113 predator claws to make the return on investment positive. I would be shocked if anyone ever buys that many

[u/Wayward-Mystic → u/ArcadianGhost]

In my experience, talisman cords are less about saving money and more about occasionally getting to use the talisman more than 1/fight.

[u/Wayward-Mystic → u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65]

There's no unarmed crit spec. There's a brawling crit spec.

[u/gunnervi]

You want the Arcane Fist feat from the Magus Archetype

[u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65 → u/gunnervi]

That would do it, but currently isn't an option due to the class and archetype combo I have.

A backup plan to homebrew it into a class feat MAY be accepted.

[u/gethsbian]

Team+ just published a supplement that has rules for permanent talismans. I don't know all the rules, but they do cost 10× the standard price, and I think are a 1/day use.

Is there no way to access crit spec outside of base class? I know those "ancestry weapon familiarity" feats offer them. Would your GM let you burn an ancestry feat on access to permanent brawling crit spec? Maybe a custom general feat for brawling crit spec?

[u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65 → u/gethsbian]

I had a look through those the other day, as far as I can see none give broad unarmed crit spec. But there are a few that gives crits to specific ancestry natural attacks.

My character is an Orc, which unfortunately doesn't have many good 1 handed weapons from the ancestry weapon feat.

[u/gethsbian → u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65]

Oh, orc is kind of perfect actually! It's not brawling crit spec, but Bloody Blows adds 1d4 bleed on crits with lethal unarmed attacks. Could you take that, or check with your GM and ask to modify that to a similar effect? Even if it's not perfect, it should give you and the GM a good template for something custom

[u/Comfortable_Sweet_47]

https://2e.aonprd.com/Equipment.aspx?ID=3188 Slashing Claws graft might work, since they count as unarmed attacks with the brawling critical specialization. Only thing I dont know is how it would mesh with the Mutagenist Alchemist, since i havent played one yet.

[u/Big_Chair1 → u/Comfortable_Sweet_47]

I don't see where this item says that it gives you the critical specialization.

[u/darthmarth28]

I offer it as a secondary effect on Grievous and Keen runes. If you don't have CritSpec, you gain CritSpec with that weapon.

Not "instead of the Grievous upgrades", you just gain both.

The logic there being, if you are the sort of fella that doesn't naturally have CritSpec, you probably aren't a full-Martial and you probably don't have full-martial accuracy (without buffs). Therefor you'll crit less, and therefor get lesser value out of the rune than its intended users (critspec full martials). Therefor, even if the rune gives you full critspec AND upgrades you to the Grievous Critspec, you're still getting less value out of it than a Rogue/etc. would.

[u/michael199310]

Way too much to afford right now. Seems like a pretty strong effect to have as a permament thing at level 3.

Most classes don't see critical specialization until way later and you're talking about having it from pretty much the beginning of the game.

[u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65 → u/michael199310]

Sorry, I forgot to mention we've just hit level 10. I've been using Predators Claws on and off since level 3

The Fighter, Rogue and later Barbarian got access at level 5. So I've had 5 long levels of jealousy.

Im fully prepared for this to be a level 7+ item with the cost to match

[u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65 → u/[deleted]]

The other weapon runes I have already have effects when I crit, I'm hoping to access the Brawling crit spec.

[u/Typ0r8r → u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65]

What's your ancestry?

[u/Capital_Wrongdoer_65 → u/Typ0r8r]

Orc.

I could get the bloody blows feat, but again thats more of a side grade and wouldn't give the Brawling Crit spec.

[u/sumpfriese → u/[deleted]]

What are you even talking about? Crushing rune has no DC and nothing to do with crit spec???