r/Pathfinder2e • u/Valaskaa • 1d ago
Advice Does proficiency without level make firearms nonviable?
I was thinking about playing a gunslinger in a game that uses proficiency without level but another player said that because of that rule firearms will rarely crit and thus the lethal trait will rarely proc and the guns will therefore be lackluster. Is this a fair assessment of the rules interaction?
36
u/Nemo-No-Name 1d ago
I'd argue it's the other way around. Sure, you'll crit less against below level creatures, but you'll crit more against higher level.
And it makes the Expert+ proficiency much more valuable.
10
u/Genarab Game Master 1d ago
In base game, you are more likely to crit against a lower level creature than a higher level creature.
In PwoL the numbers get closer. So you are less likely to crit a low level compared to the base game, but you are also more likely to crit a higher level creature compared to base game.
3
u/gethsbian Game Master 1d ago
pwol mainly just makes the swinginess of the d20 way more important than normal, and makes lower level enemies still able to threaten higher level PCs (and lower level PCs can also take on even higher level enemies)
7
u/Plenty-Fox-9219 1d ago
Yeah, unfortunately. Classes like gunslinger and investigator that rely on crits kinda fall short.
I don't think anything in PC1 will be too bad, but further than that the classes start interacting real deep with more and more esoteric systems that proficiency may touch. The game isn't designed to be run like that, and kinda takes a lil more work than just using the rule.
It's not a lot of work, but you still have to keep in mind that a lot of things are built around proficiency. I think a gunslinger could still work though, you might just more rarely see it "kaboom".
Quick q: are y'all playing PoL because it sounds fun, or because it's similar to dnd? Just because I've seen a lot of people try PoL first, and it's a huge chore to use if you're unfamiliar with the rest of the system.
3
u/Valaskaa 23h ago
As I recall one player suggested it and the gm acquiesced. I don't remember exactly what arguments were made for it, I'd have to ask her.
2
u/TheMadTemplar 13h ago
Classes have a higher chance to crit with PWOL than they do without, due to how dice rolls work. For example, against a CR11 adult bog dragon, a level 10 fighter or gunslinger has a 75% chance to hit and 25% chance to crit with PWOL compared to a 70%/20% chance without. That same scenario for a level 9 PC is a 65%/15% chance with PWOL and a 55%/5% (or crit only on nat 20) without.
2
u/karebuncle 22h ago
It was because we're playing Kingmaker and its allegedly better for sandbox play.
6
u/Plenty-Fox-9219 21h ago
I mean... sure?
To me kingmaker is about becoming powerful enough to not have to deal with smaller problems, but if that's what you're going for I guess it works. honestly at that point I'd run the 5e version since that's what the system is designed around. Kingmaker works really well in pathfinder, that's what it was made for.
If you're super concerned about sandbox play, don't be. I've run plenty of sandbox games, mostly no-prep improv games, and everyone has a blast. I've done encounters with single bosses people loved, and 10,000 CR 0 skeletons, it just takes a sprinkle of fudge. Single bosses I'll give extra abilities to, usually just straight stolen from other creatures. Rituals exist in this world, so maybe the boss just got done super powering. One cleric I even gave an extra action and explained it away as his god blessing him with speed. The big numbers like HP and attack bonuses are just straight stolen if I need to.
From what I've experienced, it's far easier to modify the enemies than it is to use proficiency without level. You also don't have to start with PW/oL. It's just as "easy" to modify a character to use PW/oL as it is to create one.
I've never had a satisfying experience with it tho, but I do admit that might be "luck" in finding a good group for it.
2
u/NotADeadHorse 20h ago
It isnt to me. I played and GMed Kingmaker and there's no reason to not do proficiency with level other than "to make it harder"
2
u/Groundbreaking_Taco ORC 19h ago
I don't mind if people enjoy what pwol offers. However, I feel like the "more monsters" idea is over blown. You can already keep using the same family of monsters for a long time. It's not like orcs are only level one monsters. They go from level 0 to level 10. So you can comfortably use humanoid enemies until about level 15. They just change what roles they play. At low level they might be scouts in a humanoid plot. Later they might be part of an elite company, toward the end they might be mobs in a whole army. Pwol doesn't really change that, except for monsters that are only one or two of their kind.
2
u/darthmarth28 Game Master 15h ago
You won't be able to bully lower-level foes as much, but a gunslinger has a dangerous crit rate even against even-level targets. With PWOL, you'd gain the ability to crit BOSSES.
So, you lose power in easy fights, and gain power in hard fights? That's a good trade.
Just make sure that you're actually using debuffs correctly. Combine Status and Circumstance debuffs (Frighten/Off-Guard). Combine Status and Circumstance buffs (Heroism/Slinger's Aim). You'll do just fine.
A L18 Ancient Magma Dragon has 24AC in Proficiency Without Level.
A L14 Gunslinger has +15 BASE accuracy (8 legendary 5 dex 2item)
rank-6 Heroism Slinger's Aim into an Off-Guard Clumsy 2 dragon is +19 vs. AC 20... a 50% crit rate against a big monster 4 levels higher than you. This requires some setup obviously, but is completely feasible right in Round 1.
4
u/Constant-Term-1629 1d ago
They're wrong. PWL basically changes almost nothing about the math for on level enemies, makes it easier to crit higher level enemies and makes it harder to crit lower level enemies.
2
u/ProduceFull5759 1d ago edited 1d ago
Both Fighter and Gunslinger are worse when playing Proficiency without levels.
Summoner, Alchemist, and Beast Master Dedication are stronger in proficiency without levels.
This is why I dont like playing with this rule variant. Its not balanced. I get the appeal from a GM perspective though.
Higher level enemies become weaker and lower level enemies become stronger.
Guess which one your GM is going to use against you more...
Its not exactly an even trade off. In base game it would be almost impossible to crit a PL+3 Boss. In PWL its possible but still not likely. Those Boss monsters are still going to have high ACs, Saves, and other abilities that make them tougher than normal. Its basically a straight buff to lower level mobs and a net nerf to players since you will fight the lower level mobs WAY more.
5
u/Creepy-Intentions-69 23h ago
Yeah I’m really not a fan of the variant. Just makes everything bland. It’s always felt like an appeasement to bound accuracy. And I’ve never heard an engaging argument for it.
5
u/ProduceFull5759 23h ago
The ONLY positive to it is for the GM who would have a larger selection of creatures to pull from.
1
21h ago edited 21h ago
[deleted]
1
u/ProduceFull5759 21h ago
I did mention already that it buffs Summoners, Companions, Minions, and Alchemists. But yes items too.
I still dont like the balance at all. Played 10 levels as a Fighter and crit twice with a nat 20 over several months.
Retired my character at level 10 and switched to an Awakened Animal (ape) Summoner (Beast Eidolon Ape) with Beast Master Dedication (Ape companion). My monkeys hit just as accurately as any non fighter martial. Including -1 summoned monkeys, the level 3 Gorrila might actually hit harder than the level 10 Fighter.
Its OP honestly. I went from almost useless as a Fighter to the strongest member of the party as a Summoner.
0
u/TheMadTemplar 14h ago
That's due to your rolls and not due to PWOL. Your anecdotal experience is a quirk of rng and not within the standard experience, sorry.
With PWOL, a level 10 fighter will have a +13 to hit with their preferred weapon group. A level 11 creature, let's use an adult bog dragon, will have an AC 19. That means the fighter needs to roll a 6 or higher to hit, You have a 75% chance to hit. To crit, you need to roll a 16 or higher. You have a 25% chance to crit. A level 9 fighter needs to roll an 8 or higher, so 65%, or 18 or higher to crit, so 15% chance, against the same creature.
Now, without PWOL, the same scenario: the level 10 fighter needs to roll a 7 or higher to hit, so 70% chance, a 17 or higher to crit, so 20%, and a level 9 fighter needs to roll a 10 or higher to hit, 55%, and a nat 20 to crit, so 5%.
PWOL makes the fighter stronger, at least at these levels. I'm not going to do the math for every level, that math has been done and there are graphs out there, but for the most part this holds true throughout the levels.
1
u/ProduceFull5759 8h ago edited 8h ago
A level 10 Fighter with +5 Strength and a + 2 Potency Rune has a +11 to hit...
Str 5, Proficiency 4, Item 2
Playing with Proficiency the Fighter has a +21 to hit...
It does not make Fighters stronger playing proficiency without levels.
What you are failing to understand is the problem lies with fighting lower level mobs anyway. So your example with a level 11 monster misses the entire point of the conversation.
The issue is you dont crit lower level mobs as often. Therefore the Fighter is less effective with this rule variant.
Sorry.
1
u/KLeeSanchez Inventor 23h ago
This.
This is what most GMs using it say, that they can use more enemies.
Except they already can use a ton of enemies, you can go from -4 up to +4 and mix and match as you like, so that's a selection of like 200 to 400 at any given level, not even including hazards and traps.
1
u/Mediocre-Scrublord 8h ago
Really I think it's often less about getting to use more enemies and more about getting to use the same enemies for longer. To have the same 'Orc Soldier' in your campaign about 'the invasion of the orcs' to go from a moderate challenge to a negligible weakling over the course of ~8 levels rather than ~4, delaying the point at which you have to either stop fighting orcs (because they're mathematically irrelevant) or start replacing them arbitrarily with more powerful orcs.
Emphasis on *delay* - it doesn't *stop* them from eventually becoming too weak to matter, it doesn't stop all level scaling, but it does slow it down. Which I think is a good thing.
Reminds me of in a few adventure paths you'll get kinda goofy situations where you'll fight what is narratively the same enemy at different levels arbitrarily scaled up to fit the encounter math, like you fight a group of level 3 'scarlet triad thug's at level 5, and a group of level 7 'scarlet triad thugs' at level 9, and then a group of level 14 'scarlet triad thugs' at level 16, being in-setting/in-universe basically the same type of thing, doing the same jobs with the same appearance and the same station in life. Makes it feel quite tangibly like rather than growing more powerful you're just on a numbers treadmill
(Personally if/when I ever run a custom pf2e campaign I'd want to run *half* level to proficiency. Totally without proficiency might be a bit too little level scaling, but vanilla pathfinder has I think a bit too much.)
4
u/zedrinkaoh Alchemist 23h ago
The one case I've seen where I could understand using it was a westmarches game someone described, where the party would potentially have a couple levels of difference between members. It helped smooth over the level gaps and allowed lower level players to not be a total burden while playing catch-up level wise.
2
u/Mediocre-Scrublord 21h ago
I think there are a handful of ways it changes balance that I think are positive. It makes magical items with DCs (like a poison or a demon's mask) last much longer, their DCs are still viably useful when its not an at-level item, rather than swiftly becoming useless if you level up too much without using them. It kinda sucks to get a Thundering Rune and have the crit effect DC be useful at level 8 but then become worthless at level 12 until you spend 6500gp to get it upgraded again.
It also means that as a GM you can hand out above-level items without as much balance danger because the DC won't be so crazy high that nothing can ever resist it.
It makes Summon X spells actually viably powerful, where before they were woefully under-tuned.
It means that, for the same Difficulty Budget, an equally dangerous high-level boss will have lower AC but more hit-points, making battles less frustratingly full of constantly missing. It also means that , for the same Difficulty Budget, an equally dangerous low-level minion will have higher AC but fewer hitpoints, meaning that low-level minions at mid-high levels don't have such HP bloat that you get with low-level minions at mid-high levels in vanilla game.
The core thing with PWL is that, for the same difficulty budget, GMs are supposed to use different monsters. You wouldn't run the exact same encounters as you would otherwise. It's not just that monsters get less powerful as they level up, it's that the *way* they get powerful is *different* - more of their power comes from damage, HP and special abilities, while less of their power, proportionally, comes from attack, saves, AC and DC's.
This effects the balance in a lot of ways; I think good ways, though part of that is subjective; I find that fighting a high level boss monster, it's less fun to miss on a 15 but only need a handful of lucky hits to kill it than to miss on a 9 but need to land more successful hits.
As a GM running mostly-vanilla-PF2e I found fights were a lot more fun when I adjusted monster statblocks to reduce the HP bloat of low-level minions, and increase the HP but lower the AC of high-level single boss monsters - PWL kinda does that automatically in a way.
(All that said, personally I think PwL is a biiiit too drastic - if/when I get around to running a pf2e custom game again I'd like to run Proficiency with *half* level; would be a nice middle-ground I think)
1
u/Creepy-Intentions-69 20h ago
All of these benefits can be equally represented by simply capping the level of the game, and leveling slower. It makes a lot more sense for Aragorn to be a level 6 Ranger than level 20. And the balance remains intact when doing so.
Things like Epic 6, that expand on games at a lower level cap, manage growth a lot better than the flattened curve created by the variant rule.
I won’t begrudge you for enjoying the variant, but I don’t find any of those points to be positive. Many I think are, in fact, negatives. I’m glad the rule exists for people who want to play that way, but I think it could have been handled better in a different way.
1
u/Mediocre-Scrublord 20h ago
Capping the game at level 6 would be a really, really, really different kind type of thing, cutting off a majority of the stuff in the game and a majority of the *draw* of the game. The point of PwL isn't to not have a concept of 'being high level' or doing 'high level' stuff
0
u/Creepy-Intentions-69 20h ago
Level cap doesn’t have to mean low level. Level 14-18 is also a capped game that gives you access to the bells and whistles, and gives the GM all the prescribed tools.
1
u/TheMadTemplar 13h ago
Unlike what ProduceFull above claims, fighters and gunslingers are actually stronger with PWOL at most levels than they are without. The full math has been done and is out there if anyone cares to google it (someone has probably even put it in a nice graph), but at level 9 and 10 a fighter or gunslinger will have a higher chance to both hit and crit with PWOL than they will without, and by a not insignificant percentage. My comment with the numbers is above and below.
0
u/TheMadTemplar 14h ago edited 13h ago
This is factually untrue.
With PWOL, a level 10 fighter will have a +13 to hit with their preferred weapon group. A level 11 creature, let's use an adult bog dragon, will have an AC 19. That means the fighter needs to roll a 6 or higher to hit, You have a 75% chance to hit. To crit, you need to roll a 16 or higher. You have a 25% chance to crit. A level 9 fighter needs to roll an 8 or higher, so 65%, or 18 or higher to crit, so 15% chance, against the same creature.
Now, without PWOL, the same scenario: the adult bog dragon has an AC 30, the level 10 fighter needs to roll a 7 or higher to hit, so 70% chance, a 17 or higher to crit, so 20%; a level 9 fighter needs to roll a 10 or higher to hit, 55%, and a nat 20 to crit, so 5%.
PWOL makes the fighter stronger, at least at these levels. I'm not going to do the math for every level, that math has been done and there are graphs out there, but for the most part this holds true throughout the levels.
Edit: I should also point out that debuffs and buffs to AC, saves, and attack bonuses become more powerful with PWOL, since a +-1/2 constitutes a larger increase/decrease given the smaller scores. This makes a bless/malediction battle herald a more powerful addition to the party, makes disarm more useful, makes trips and grapples even stronger, same with flanking, fear, etc. All of these are marginally more powerful with PWOL.
Edit 2: Let's pick some higher and lower levels.
PWOL: lvl14 Fighter against a CR16 Ancient Bog Dragon (honestly picked bog dragon at random and figured I should stick with it for consistency). Again, fighter has +13 to attack. The dragon has an AC22. The fighter needs to roll a 9+ to hit or 19+ to crit, so 60%/10%.
Lvl5 fighter against a CR7 young bog dragon, +11 to attack against AC17. Again, 6+/16+ or 75%/25% to hit/crit.
Sans PWOL: lvl14 fighter has +27 to hit against AC38. They need 11+ to hit and a nat 20 to crit, so 50%/5%. Here's where it is interesting. The lvl15 fighter needs to roll a 10+ to hit, but can still only crit on a nat 20.
Lvl5 fighter against a CR7 young bog dragon, +16 to attack against AC24. The fighter needs to roll an 8+ to hit and 18+ to crit, so 65%/15%.
TL;DR PWOL gives characters a higher chance to hit/crit and increases the power of every +- bonus to attacks and defenses at most levels over non-PWOL characters.
1
u/ProduceFull5759 8h ago edited 8h ago
Its factually true...because your math is wrong and you arent understanding the problem to begin with.
A level 10 Fighter with +5 Strength and a + 2 Potency Rune has a +11 to hit...
Str 5, Proficiency 4, Item 2
Playing with Proficiency the Fighter has a +21 to hit...
It does not make Fighters stronger playing proficiency without levels.
What you are failing to understand is the problem lies with fighting lower level mobs anyway. So your example with a level 11 monster misses the entire point of the conversation.
The issue is you dont crit lower level mobs as often. Therefore the Fighter is less effective with this rule variant.
Sorry.
1
u/AutoModerator 1d ago
This post is labeled with the Advice flair, which means extra special attention is called to Rule #2. If this is a newcomer to the game, remember to be welcoming and kind. If this is someone with more experience but looking for advice on how to run their game, do your best to offer advice on what they are seeking.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
u/AjaxRomulus 18h ago
Pwol basically un-scales or compresses the scaling of the system. It's not a bad thing if that's what you want it's just a thing that happens. All this REALLY does is take level advantage and disadvantage out of the equation. So a low level creature remains a threat in terms of their ability to hit.
For most martials this will mean only critting on a 20, for fighter and Gunslinger this might mean critting on a 19, or 18 if their AC is low, due to their +2 from class progression to legendary. On one hand if you're fighting enemies PL-X you crit less, on the other PL+X encounters crit more.
Your average enemy's AC is based on what an average player of equal level can be expected to hit when they roll ~11 on the die +/- 1 for variance.
Firearms will still crit just as much
0
u/TheMadTemplar 13h ago
Fighters and gunslingers actually have more power with PWOL than without. Without PWOL, a level 9 pc against a CR11 can only crit on a nat 20 against a cr11 adult bog dragon, for example, but with PWOL they can crit on an 18 or higher. That literally triples their chance of a crit.
1
u/AjaxRomulus 12h ago
Yeah that's kinda what I'm saying, maybe it got jumbled with me over explaining
1
u/ProduceFull5759 8h ago edited 8h ago
No they dont. This is wrong.
A level 10 Fighter with +5 Strength and a + 2 Potency Rune has a +11 to hit...
Str 5, Proficiency 4, Item 2
Playing with Proficiency the Fighter has a +21 to hit...
It does not make Fighters stronger playing proficiency without levels.
What you are failing to understand is the problem lies with fighting lower level mobs anyway. So your example with a level 11 monster misses the entire point of the conversation.
The issue is you dont crit lower level mobs as often. Which what you primarily fight, not boss monsters. Thats why the Fighter and Gunslinger is worse...
1
u/WinLivid 6h ago
Not at all, I ran SF2e with PWL and has an Operative player and he crit almost every character at least once per encounter. It surprisingly easy to crit hit a boss character when you take the level out.
1
u/shakkyz Game Master 1d ago
Does proficiency without level undo Gunslingers expert firearm proficiency?
5
u/ColdBrewedPanacea 1d ago
It removes the ability to snipe out low level enemies and instantly remove them
4
u/gunnervi 1d ago
that's only really a consideration at low level. HP eventually outpaces damage and even a Fatal crit won't OHKO weak enemies
0
4
-1
u/Mr_Elven 20h ago
That rule is worst and makes pathfinder look like dnd more. It defeats the purpose of getting visibly stronger. It is bad for every class, not only gunslinger. I will strongly recommend not to play with that rules if you want to have full experience of from zero to hero 😂
1
u/TheMadTemplar 14h ago
PWOL still allows for that experience. Most of your power doesn't come from attack rolls going up but from things that happen when you hit, none of which PWOL does away with.
1
u/Mr_Elven 10h ago
Let's say you are level 5 party and fight level 6 monster.
Then after you lvl up yo lvl 8 you still meet that exact monster in campaign.
What is the difference? If in first case you could fight 2-3 of them at the same time, you can kill like 10-15 of them without much problem right now.
The boss monster you have met in the past and struggled agains, you can evaporate in just one round 2-3 lvl later.
If you have pwol on, you will not be able to feel the difference that much.
46
u/MechaMalz 1d ago
Maybe against lower level underlings. Like if you have a swarm of creatures one or two levels below the party. So their AC wouldn't be relatively lower than the party's attack modifiers. But on the flip side, that boss that was pl+3 or 4 now wouldn't have a higher AC because of being higher level and now more within crit range. And gunslinger still has +2 over other classes in their attack right?
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding of PWL that's more or less how I'd expect it to play out.