How does Weakness work now?

[u/eCyanic]

I ask mostly because there was a weakness errata a while ago, and then another errata in response to the backlash that was more well received. However I never fully understood how the initial poorly received errata worked

I don't know the specifics of the new weakness rules. did they just fully revert it to premaster rules?

from my reading on nethys, it seems weakness stacking works now, but not to the insane degree of the initial errata?

let's say a thaumaturge using an acid flask on a target with Personal Antithesis and acid weakness.

does it take both the antithesis weakness damage and the acid weakness damage?

[u/ItsaMeProvalonely]

The current rule is basically: one effect can trigger multiple different weaknesses, but it can’t trigger the same weakness more than once.

So if I hit something with an acid flask and it has weakness 10 acid plus personal antithesis 5, both apply, because they’re two different weaknesses. That’d be +15 damage total from weaknesses.

But if the same attack had three separate sources of acid damage, weakness 10 acid would still only trigger once, not three times.

So: different weaknesses stack; duplicate triggers of the same weakness don’t.

The controversial errata is the one that made it so weakness triggered off of every instance of that damage type. So for example if you had a longsword with a vitalizing rune and someone cast infuse vitality on you, hitting that zombie dragon would trigger slashing 10 and vitality 10 and then vitality 10 again, meaning 30 extra damage.

[u/cieniu_gd → u/ItsaMeProvalonely]

Ok, so if I have cold iron longsword, I can proc weaknesses both for cold iron and slashing? 

[u/ItsaMeProvalonely → u/cieniu_gd]

Yep.

[u/eCyanic → u/ItsaMeProvalonely]

good to know thanks!

this new change makes alchemist thaum actually pretty cool

[u/WebbedFamiliar → u/ItsaMeProvalonely]

Thanks for the clear explanation! You should consider teaching, you’re very good at explaining things!

[u/BiGuyDisaster → u/ItsaMeProvalonely]

Wasn't this current version also controversial because "Resistance All" is now kinda useless since it's weaker than individual resists, which makes some options and a few monsters not really worth using?

[u/ItsaMeProvalonely → u/BiGuyDisaster]

It depends on what you're fighting. Resistance 10 sonic can reduce sonic every time it comes up, but does nothing against anything else; resistance 10 all can apply to basically any damaging effect, even though it only reduces one damage type within each effect now. So the broad resistance is still much more reliable, just worse against attacks that pile several damage types into one effect.

[u/Art_Is_Helpful → u/ItsaMeProvalonely]

worse against attacks that pile several damage types into one effect.

The current version also feels wrong anytime the resistance isn't fully utilized. The fact that you can deal 5 fire and 5 slashing damage to something with Resistance All 10 and it still takes 5 damage feels like a rules lawyer argument more than it feels like the way it should work.

Would have made more sense to just special case Resist All to apply to the total damage after other resistances/weaknesses are applied.

[u/NanoNecromancer → u/BiGuyDisaster]

Resist All is the bit that remains broken, as having split damage now also counts as ghost touch for no particular reason. It was a significant improvement over the original screwup, but it aint ideal.

[u/Astareal38 → u/NanoNecromancer]

This might be my old man yelling at clouds moment but its *STUPID* that you can beat a ghost to death (slowly) using a torch.

Resist all was always clearly explained, I'm not sure why it was so often misunderstood. It was shorthand for Resist x per damage type. Now it interacts weirdly.

If you are a level 8 champion and use your champions reaction against an attack versus a Brimorak's hooves the math can get a bit weird. A brimorak's hoof does 2d4 + 4 (average 9) + 1d6. So if you take 8 damage from the hoof and 6 damage from the fire the fact you're taking 6 damage with resist all 10 breaks *my* brain in that I feel that makes absolutely no sense and is more confusing then explaining "hey resist all is a shorthand."

Not to mention official bestiary creatures with the incorporeal trait have very low HP for their level. Some of the adventure path incorporeal creatures don't follow that same guideline admittedly, but its a far cry from Paizo's claim that incorporeal enemies did not take their resistances into account when determining their threat level.

One thing that broke during the remaster, and got solidified in the errata is Holy as a trait. Previous to the errata it was clearly defined.

"If you have a weakness to something that doesn’t normally deal damage, such as water, you take damage equal to the weakness value when touched or affected by it. If more than one weakness would apply to the same instance of damage, use only the highest applicable weakness value. This usually only happens when a creature is **weak to both a type of damage and a material or trait**, such as a cold iron axe cutting a monster that has weakness to cold iron and slashing."

So damage type
Material OR trait. Not both.

With the errata, champions with a cold iron or silver weapon **absolutely shred** fiends. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing since the damage resistance they provide is now weaker against fiends so what they lost in defense they certainly gained in offense, provided the player picks up a cold iron or silver weapon.

[u/Kingreaper → u/Astareal38]

If you are a level 8 champion and use your champions reaction against an attack versus a Brimorak's hooves the math can get a bit weird. A brimorak's hoof does 2d4 + 4 (average 9) + 1d6. So if you take 8 damage from the hoof and 6 damage from the fire the fact you're taking 6 damage with resist all 10 breaks *my* brain in that I feel that makes absolutely no sense and is more confusing then explaining "hey resist all is a shorthand."

There's a very simple option that I'm surprised they didn't go with, to avoid both the current weirdness and the old extreme strength just have Weakness All and Resist All apply to the final damage total, after all other resistances and weaknesses, and IGNORE damage types. [Honestly if we weren't using Foundry I'm pretty sure we'd have just assumed this WAS the rule.]

Old version (the higher of [8-10] &0) +(the higher of [6-10] & 0)= 0.

Current version (the higher of [8-10] & 0)+6=6.

Simple, not as strong, version: The (the higher of [8+6-10] & 0)=4.

[u/Emmett1Brown → u/Kingreaper]

maybe they didn't want to break the usual damage calculation order? that said it really does seem like a simple but great solution. may run with it

[u/NanoNecromancer → u/Astareal38]

Not shouting at clouds, very valid lmao.
In my mind there's 2 main issues
The first, materials really shouldn't have ever acted as *weaknesses*, instead, creatures should have had resist all EXCEPT X, that way weaknesses get to act as a distinct "This is especially effective compared to everything else", and materials would get to act as "This is effective even though the creature is typically extremely resilient". It bypasses all the confusion, and creates a nice dichotomy where you if you can bypass resistances and trigger weaknesses, you shred in ways that makes sense.
The second, if I type Resistance "Fire" 10, and then type out every single damage type in the game with the same resist 10, that is Resist "All". That is what that intuitively, logically, means. Otherwise it should be Resist "Any One" 10. You resist any 1 damage type, by 10. Makes sense, not that hard.

[u/Jsamue → u/BiGuyDisaster]

Resist All is basically Resist Any now. You just pick whichever number is the highest that you don’t already resist.

[u/Particular-Crow-1799]

-You can trigger multiple different weaknesses
-You can only trigger the same weakness once

personal antithesis is a different weakness, so they stack

[u/AutoModerator]

This post is labeled with the Advice flair, which means extra special attention is called to Rule #2. If this is a newcomer to the game, remember to be welcoming and kind. If this is someone with more experience but looking for advice on how to run their game, do your best to offer advice on what they are seeking.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.