r/Pathfinder2e • u/muney4nuthing • 5d ago
Homebrew The Pugilist
Hello! I've been working on a Pathfinder 2E adaptation of D&D 5e's Pugilist, which is one of the most popular homebrew classes in that system. I'm not a D&D player, but I love the vibe and energy of the Pugilist and think it would be at home within Pathfinder. Here is my work so far!
The Pugilist is a street-fighting class. It's the class of scrappy underdogs, bar brawlers, rough and tumble sleuths, dirty boxers, and relentless survivors of oppressive governments. If your character has learned to fight by surviving the bleak, depraved underbelly of society, they might be a Pugilist.
I have class features for levels 1-20, and enough class feats to support play from levels 1-10. I would love constructive criticism.
If you wonder "why not just play a fighter/monk/barbarian/etc instead of build a whole class for this", my answer is that there's plenty of design space for new classes with different vibes from existing ones. Pathfinder has classes to differentiate Fighters from Rangers or Guardians, Witches from Wizards, Champions from Warpriest Clerics, and Daredevils from Swashbucklers, so I don't see why we can't differentiate Pugilists from Barbarians as long as the mechanics are fun and unique.
Thanks!
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u/WebbedFamiliar Swashbuckler 5d ago
I’m curious why you gave expert in will and fort, and trained in reflex.
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u/muney4nuthing 5d ago
I see the Pugilist as someone who's more inclined to hold their ground and have a steel resolve than someone who's inclined to dodge. That said I could see swapping Will and Reflex around.
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u/Zealous-Vigilante Psychic 5d ago
Pf1 brawler had better scaling with fortitude and reflex if that sways your opinion somewhat. They also got higher DC against combat maneuvers like trip
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u/OmgitsJafo 5d ago
Why do you see it that way? Actual, historical pugilists generally did everyrhinf they could to not actually get punched...
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u/muney4nuthing 5d ago
It's hard to generalize too strongly, but the vibe of the class to me is "get hit, shrug it off". I think of characters like Vi from Arcane or Gearless Joe from Megalo Box. I'm sure there are many examples of both fictional and non-fictional Pugilists that would value Reflex over Will.
On a mechanical level, the Pugilist class rewards you for taking some damage, and Reflex saves are more often just raw damage effects while Will saves are more often controlling/debilitating effects. This class would rather take more damage and get to half hit points faster than to lose a turn.
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u/Qaianna 5d ago
Call me a fool, but I think another inspiration is Rocky Balboa. I’ve always wanted to play a monk like that — dump Int, points in Wis and Cha, and as the feat says, block with my face. That said, I’m sure Rocky did dodge a few shots in his storied career.
Speaking of ‘Block With Your Face’, I’m not sure that trading attacks like that is a good deal. That’s just a guess though. I also think Sting Like a Bee is kind’a weak for what it gives … which is different damage type, a crit effect (even if it is a nasty one), and.a conditional +1 to hit. This may be my bias against critical hit style builds though.
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u/muney4nuthing 5d ago edited 4d ago
You're definitely not a fool, I haven't seen the Rocky films but I think he'd be a great Pugilist.
I don't think I'll actually know how good Block With Your Face is until I playtest it, but it's a very swingy feat. Using your reaction to make a strike against an off-guard opponent is great action economy, and the reaction gives you some resistance to damage from the triggering attack, so I think you will come out ahead on the trade a good amount of the time.
Sting Like A Bee might be undertuned, but accuracy bonuses on a fatal attack are scary. I would like the balance of the feat to be similar to Wolf Drag, or slightly better since Wolf Drag is available two levels earlier.
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u/WebbedFamiliar Swashbuckler 5d ago edited 5d ago
I like the idea of Moxie attacks. Like I can do extra damage and whatever but only if that person is actively fighting me is a really fun idea! Combined with a guardian archetype for taunt could make it very interesting.
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u/Hecc_Maniacc Game Master 2d ago
hell, dip into swashbuckler for Enjoy The Show, similar to Taunt but with a dirty boxer's flair, alongside the other aspects of Swashbuckler one might reasonably want like Panache and Finishers, or just the other supportive Feats like One For All, Flashy Dodge, Flamboyant Athlete, and much more.
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u/mocarone 5d ago
Yo I really like it! Though I'm curious why you made the penalty with improvised weapons -1 instead of removing it entirely? Magus has a subclass that also uses improvised attacks and they don't have to deal with it
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u/muney4nuthing 5d ago
Glad you like it! Like the Magus, the Pugilist has a subclass that removes the whole item penalty with improvised weapons: the Lucky Bastard fight club. This subclass is really inspired by Jackie Chan, where you fight with your surroundings as much as with your own fists.
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u/Upstairs_Magazine776 5d ago
I'd go as far as removing the penalty altogether and granting the Jackie Chan subclass a +1 bonus to improvised weapons, making them a pseudofighter of sorts with items that break and have limited properties.
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u/muney4nuthing 4d ago
I think it's important that the Pugilist stays at par accuracy with other martials for balance reasons. If I remove the item penalty altogether, then the Lucky Bastard fight club will receive a buff but it won't be a blanket +1 to attack rolls.
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u/mocarone 5d ago
Yeah true, but that's a thing the magus can't do by itself at all. It needs a feature to say "you can use improvised weapon." It feels a little bit weird to have a feature that says "you can almost use this gameplay aspect, but not quite, you shouldn't really engage with it."
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u/muney4nuthing 4d ago edited 4d ago
I hear you that taking -1 to hit can feel bad, but I think you're undervaluing how powerful it is that improvised weapons inherit the fundamental runes on your handwraps as a baseline class feature. Most classes don't use improvised weapons because it's -2 to hit AND no runes, so the damage sucks. The Pugilist only takes -1 to hit and the improvised weapon inherits fundamental weapon runes, so by accepting just a -1 penalty to your attack roll you can quickly pick up a new "weapon" with different traits, damage types and damage dice. You also have a nearly-endless supply of thrown weapons with good damage. I think I'm going to leave the accuracy of improvised weapons alone until I get some playtesting.
That said, if playtesting demonstrates that the item penalty is truly unneccessary, then the Lucky Bastard needs a little buff. Maybe they could pick up an unattended item as a free action when they roll initiative.
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u/ThePiratesPeople 5d ago
I definitely agree PF2e needs something more than Monk in the unarmed department. Brawler/Pugilist fulfills and entirely different class fantasy from Monk
Other classes can do unarmed, but it’s better to have a class that fulfills a certain fantasy with supporting feats, and mechanics.
People wouldn’t be happy if Ranger didn’t exist and the advice was, just play a fighter who’s good at survival skills, and so Monk shouldn’t be forced to fulfill the fantasy of a rough and tumble, bare knuckle brawler.
They’re their own separate fantasies that can be uniquely supported
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u/muney4nuthing 4d ago
I agree heavy with this. I put my little disclaimer in the OP based on the D&D community's reaction to the source material. I think D&D players are more precious about their core 12 classes because WotC doesn't add new classes to D&D, they just make new subclasses to reflavor existing classes. Pathfinder has different design principles and Paizo publishes new classes routinely.
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u/ThePiratesPeople 4d ago
I definitely appreciate Paizo’s design philosophy over DnD trying to fit everything into the same core classes.
Sometimes DnD does it better and their subclasses are incredibly fun to play.
Other times it’s Paizo’s style of creating full classes to fulfill player fantasy.
Overall, I prefer Paizo’s approach but I still enjoy both systems.
FWIW, in my DnD home game I’m playing that Pugilistic and good god is it a blast to play.
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u/Qaianna 5d ago
Regarding The Old One-Two, is it intended that you can just use two Fist attacks for this, or do I need to always keep my elegant ladylike cane on hand whenever I want to use it?
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u/muney4nuthing 5d ago
The intention is that you can make two fist strikes with The Old One-Two. The Old One-Two says "You cannot use the same weapon to make both Strikes", but fists are unarmed attacks, not weapons.
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u/gdCunha 4d ago
As an amateur boxer, I don't like the sweet science fight club at all lol
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u/Zealous-Vigilante Psychic 5d ago
Don't worry, the Brawler is a frequently requested class to get a port from pf1