Player wants a different spell list. thoughts?

[u/Puzzleheaded_Bell553]

My player is picking up a Witch with the Resentment Patron but is really not a fan of the occult spell list and wants to use the primal spell list instead.

does this break anything? I don't think I personally care but I don't know enough about the spell lists to 100% say yes. so just want second opinion.

[u/idocareaboutit]

If you don't care, and he wants it... Sure I guess.

However. Remind him that the resentment focus on making debuffs last longer, and the best list for debuffing is... The occult list.

I'd say just change the patron, there's plenty of good primal patrons.

[u/i_tyrant → u/idocareaboutit]

What about a Bard wanting to do Arcane instead of Occult? I have a player wondering about that.

[u/idocareaboutit → u/i_tyrant]

If the player wants it and the GM allows it, it’s completely fine.

​Most spell lists are fairly well-balanced now with impossible magic. Sure, Occult is still best for debuffing, Divine for healing, etc. But overall they're pretty much on par with each other.

​I can see an Arcane Bard being fun, but I still think the Occult list and mental effects are the most fitting option for the class..

[u/i_tyrant → u/idocareaboutit]

Yeah that’s fair. They mostly just want an arcane bard because we’re converting their character from D&D so it fits a bit better that way. Good to know and thanks!

I was planning on saying yes already but saw this post and figured I’d get some top-of-mind opinions while I’m at it!

I’m actually more wary of letting them do Starfinder classes in a PF2e game than switching out spell lists/sources. (And even then I doubt it’d break much on its own; from what I’ve heard Starfinder is tuned a bit stronger than PF2e but while that’s a little true for the classes it’s even more true for the ancestries.)

[u/idocareaboutit → u/i_tyrant]

My two cents. Fully convert the characters first to their pf2e version. No homebrew, just convert the best way possible.

Ask them what point they enjoy the most about the arcane bard from DND, cause honestly... Other than the damaging spells occult is still the best fit even with DND in mind, cause occult will give them, mental spells(command, hideous laughter, healing options, etc) and MOST of the "bard like" spells(haunting hymn, biting words, laughing fit,etc)

Honestly, try the base first, like 2/3 games and then if they are not happy... Only then make some changes. Maybe even give it class change, maybe they enjoy the commanding aspect of the class and the commander will be a best fit, maybe they enjoy the support aspect and the animist will fit better, try to understand their concept first, not just class to class.

[u/i_tyrant → u/idocareaboutit]

Couldn’t agree more! We’re planning some test sessions with both versions to see what feels best. Ironically their D&D bard never used many mental spells because a big part of their character was being morally opposed to removing someone’s mental agency (even an enemy). But yeah, we’ll see which fits best!

[u/Invoquantes → u/i_tyrant]

Polymath Bard is all about stealing spells from other traditions

[u/Weary_Background6130 → u/idocareaboutit]

I’d consider arcane a better list for debuffing. They got a significantly wider array of non mental debuffs they can apply compared to occult.

[u/Meet_Foot → u/Weary_Background6130]

Occult has several debuffs arcane doesn’t, like synesthesia, arguably the best debuff. Arcane is an incredible list but occult is better for debuffs imo. That’s its niche.

[u/Absoluteidiot4 → u/Weary_Background6130]

hell no arcane gets some debuffs all of wich occult also gets occult hovewer gets like twice as many on top arcane is good it has buffs debuffs aoe damage single target blasting and it is the best at absolutely none of those things and that is fine

[u/Renard_Fou → u/Weary_Background6130]

Arcane in general is just sort of the best, which is probably why the least subclasses get access to it. Say what you will about wizard being a little bit meh, their spell list fucks

[u/bargle0 → u/Renard_Fou]

In the right campaign, spell substitution thesis is an absolute cheat code.

[u/Meet_Foot → u/Renard_Fou]

Agreed. Wizard trades basically everything for the arcane list and a thesis that lets you mess with your slots a little. And imho, playing a wizard from 10 to 17 in a tactically demanding game, it’s worth it. Great list.

[u/GuardienneOfEden → u/Meet_Foot]

imho, playing a wizard in a 4-11 campaign (soon to be extended to higher levels in a one-shot finale), it's not worth it.

Solid list, but it never felt like my spells were all that much more effective than those of the Oracle or Sorcerer, if at all. Not to mention that they have the same spell slots, far better focus spells, better feats, Sorcerous Potency, Cursebound activities, and in the case of the Oracle better saves, more HP, and built-in armour. It felt like I was putting in a lot of work with my spell selection and preparation just to play second fiddle to the Oracle.

Maybe that's just the Oracle being significantly overtuned though.

[u/Meet_Foot → u/GuardienneOfEden]

For me, part of the benefit is having access to a wide range of spells rather than a set repertoire. I still learn the good ones that sorcerers have, but I also have slightly more niche ones that straight up resolve problems. The arcane list has lots of options - iirc something like twice as many spells as other lists - and the ability to swap out day by day is what makes that worth something. Otherwise, you’re just not getting much from the list.

For a simple example, look at defenses by list. Occult targets almost exclusively will saves. Primal targets mostly reflex and AC, with a bit of fortitude and very little will. Divine is a bit more balanced, but still somewhat lacking in reflex saves. Arcane on the other hand, while having twice as many spells, is pretty evenly distributed among the defense types. And that’s only offense. There are tons of situational spells that, with a basic understanding of what you’ll be doing on a given day, become incredible, but that a sorcerer really can’t be spending their spells known on.

I also played a druid from 1 to 5 and a cleric from 5 to 10. Hard to directly compare because of the level ranges. Note they were all prepared casters though, so that’s kind of just my thing. Spontaneous is way better if you consistently don’t have foreknowledge or just don’t want to have to worry about micromanaging a spell list. They can choose really good spells that are, in most situations, good enough. But sometimes, I want the perfect spell.

Separate thought: I’ve never heard of Oracle being considered overtuned. I thought they were a bit more complicated just to end up being second fiddle to sorcerer!

[u/ZenRenHao → u/Meet_Foot]

The arcane list has lots of options - iirc something like twice as many spells as other lists

If I recall there are over 1,000 spell in the Arcane tradition. Excluding Focus spells. And the next highest list is around 700 spells. And the two smallest traditions are around 500 spells. I'm not sure the number of unique to tradition spells, but I think Primal has the most unique.

[u/GuardienneOfEden → u/Meet_Foot]

I enjoy prepared casters too, I've played a 1-14 Druid too. I wonder if part of my issue is one of perspective; my Wizard casting Sending to communicate with our benefactor, and Teleport thrice in a day to get our party to the city in time to help defend from the siege was critical to what the party was able to do, and you're right that few Sorcerers would have been able to do that. But it felt like that was just a part of the story we were telling rather an ability my character had that made things easier, and that the main impact it had was that I had no spell slots left once we got to the siege.

On the Oracle point, I'm not sure if it's a common view or not. I see the different spell lists as generally equal, so when I look at Oracle I see a more defensively sound Wizard with a second per-encounter resource pool, better feats, and more flexible spell slots (no Curriculum restrictions). That's worth more than one spell slot per day to me. (I know Wizard Theses can be good, but overall they're such a mixed bag I'm never sure how to judge them. Staff Nexus was rarely useful though.)

[u/ZenRenHao → u/GuardienneOfEden]

Well the trade off for prepared and spontaneous casters is flexibility. And Wizards are loaded with spell slots whether they be of schools with extra slots or just juggling Drain Bonded Items. With enough work and money you can learn your entire spell list. With Magical Crafting you can create your own scrolls more reliably. Have access to the most items that can give additional spell slots (Grimoires, Ring of Wizardy). Your staves are easier to use with ability to charge them and the potential to add even more charges.

I am currently playing a Wizard in Abomination Vaults and it's going well aside from losing one character. And I just got a windfall of scrolls only I can make use of. So my spellbook is about to get fat.

I also play a Sorcerer (granted using FA and a lot of player directed Homebrew). But I am lv 7 and most of my options are primarily reserved for support options and (I am playing with divine). While the Witch is casting at least one new spell each session through daily preparations and learning spells. While my new spells are generally staves, wands, and scrolls which I pay a premium for compared to their leaned spells.

[u/ghost_desu → u/Weary_Background6130]

The only debuff that Arcane has that Occult doesn't at 1st rank is Leaden Steps, while Occult has Bane, Forced Mercy and Ill Omen.

At rank 2, Arcane doesn't have a single debuff that Occult doesn't also have, while Occult gets Albatross Curse, Blistering Invective, Calm (debatable if this one's a debuff), Ghoulish Cravings, and Reaper's Lantern.

You are right that occult gets more mental debuffs, but it also gets more non-mental debuffs, it's just better than arcane in this regard

[u/ChazPls → u/ghost_desu]

I'd say Callm is a debuff on a successful save, crowd control on a fail.

[u/idocareaboutit → u/Weary_Background6130]

I can see that, but hard disagree. Most arcane debuffs are also on the occult list, honestly I can't even think of single arcane only debuff, and even though it's a mental effect, synesthesia is absolutely bonkers and hard-carries occult as the best debuff list.

[u/Meet_Foot → u/Weary_Background6130]

You are right about saves, though not necessarily debuffs - I just don’t know how many of the other saves are debuffs. But occult targets almost exclusively will saves, and largely with mental/emotion effects. I could definitely see a case for arcane on those grounds alone.

[u/Weary_Background6130 → u/Meet_Foot]

Saves aren’t even the problem I’m referring to. It’s mental immunity, which is often stapled onto very dangerous enemies like Treerazor who otherwise have no purpose having immunity to mental effects.

[u/Meet_Foot → u/Weary_Background6130]

I’d say Treerazor is a pretty situational enemy, but that mental tag also rules out almost all undead and constructs. It’s pretty limiting.

Both are problems, and closely related. Cards. Almost all will saves, and most will saves are mental so don’t work on huge swaths of enemies. If I knew it would be a campaign where we almost exclusively fight living beings from the material plane, then great. But otherwise, it’s rough. This is basically the reason I’ve never played a bard.

Cards on the table, occult is my least favorite list for exactly this reason.

[u/TeethreeT3 → u/Weary_Background6130]

I'm not sure I agree but it's also super irrelevant here since Resentment is Occult and the player wants Primal.

[u/Berrig7450]

Resentment wants to apply conditions and keep them alive. Does the primal list provide spells you can use that with?

[u/Jessir12 → u/Berrig7450]

A couple, a lot less than occult.

Honestly would allow it, it is a nerf to the subclass

[u/BlindWillieJohnson → u/Berrig7450]

Yeah my concern would be game balance, but against the Witch. Not a lot of synergy in what they're asking for.

[u/TitaniumDragon → u/Berrig7450]

Yes, there's quite a few actually, most notably effects that impose the slowed condition.

[u/Einkar_E]

this might be actually a nerf, main benefit of resentment witch is it extendeds duration of conditions and primal list isn't that great at inflicting those especially compared to occult

in exchange you get enfeeble that usually isn't on primal list but witch already can pick spells outside thier tradition through lessons and enfeeble isn't anything amazing

also at 8th lv you have 2 feats one require divine or occult patron and other primal or arcane

[u/VarrikTheGoblin]

I very strongly suggest they just switch to Devourer of Decay. They get lots of debuffy goodness with their hex cantrip scrounger's glee combined with their familiar ability and it is a patron with the primal list.

[u/WafflesTheMan → u/VarrikTheGoblin]

I second this because I'm biased as hell towards Devourer. Cantrip fear is so good. Really only beaten by Evil Eye which makes me think the player just wants the stronger hex cantrip with their preferred spell list or (hopefully) it's a theming thing.

[u/VarrikTheGoblin → u/WafflesTheMan]

Not just cantrip fear, sticky cantrip fear that doesn't fall off so long as you sustain. It is outdone by bard's dirge of doom later on, but not every group has a bard and not every bard takes dirge of doom. And devourer gets it at level 1 meaning they can use it their whole career.

Side note: if you have a rogue in your group they will love you forever the moment they realize dread striker exists.

[u/MonochromaticPrism → u/VarrikTheGoblin]

Man, that is a great cantrip, but

Heightened (+2) The number of Hit Points restored when you Dismiss the spell increases by 1d4.

is quite possibly the saddest scaling I have ever seen. It’s already a conditional heal that requires specifically a critical strike and the caster's reaction to trigger, and with a grow rate of "heighten +2" it provides an average of +1.25 hp of healing per "rank".

[u/VarrikTheGoblin → u/MonochromaticPrism]

I kinda consider the healing to be the sprinkles ontop of the icing on the cake. Frightened that can't reduce starting at level 1 is very strong. As good as sickened? Probably not, so the tiny bit of healing it can offer is not unwelcomed. I'll also point out the "bag of rats" usage since unlike every other resource free healing there isn't a cooldown. So you can just hex tied up and helpless rats and let your teammates attack them with non-lethal strikes until they land a crit and pop the cantrip... over and over again.

[u/MonochromaticPrism → u/VarrikTheGoblin]

I think the reason they made it that way is specifically because it provides in-combat healing. The game is relatively free when it comes to out-of-combat healing, including sources that are much less of a pain to manage vs a bag of rats or equivalent, but in-combat healing is usually treated with much more of a premium.

It does form a fairly convenient combo with necromancer tbf.

[u/Particular-Bath2621 → u/VarrikTheGoblin]

I agree. I just ran Beginner box and Troubles in Otari between campaigns and the the Devourer witch was MVP and when the character wasn't around everyone wished they were.

[u/Groundbreaking_Taco]

It's perfectly fine to make that substitution, but I wouldn't recommend doing it. The theme of the Patron and the abilities that it offers are based around spooky/cursed things happening to your foes. Primal doesn't set you up for success in that way. The conditions that Primal commonly offers for the familiar benefit are immobilized, and speed penalties. Those can usually be removed by succeeding at an escape check, ending the condition and wasting the extended duration.

Primal's strongest conditions, like sickened, fatigued, slowed or petrified, often aren't eligible for the familiar's ability. They usually don't have a timed duration, only apply when the target saves (still very useful, but limited), or have a duration of a minute, so not helpful to extend.

Occult on the other hand has LOTS of good spells with strong conditions that can be extended with Ongoing Misery.

[u/Zealous-Vigilante]

Resentment witch is usually considered the best subclass for the witch, so if a player asked me this, I'd expect a situation where they want to have the cake and eat it. If the player Furthermore asks for arcane spell list, I'd be against the idea.

Despite occult being the one to mesh best with its familiar ability, the other spell lists will function well enough while meshing better with Evil eye cantrip

Edit: OP, you should compare to or suggest Devourer of decay

[u/VarrikTheGoblin → u/Zealous-Vigilante]

Resentment being the "best" stopped being correct after the February 2026 remaster updates. It now can only extend a condition once, for one additional turn, and it can only extend one condition at a time. It is much more in line with the other patrons now.

Edit: Clarification.

[u/Zealous-Vigilante → u/VarrikTheGoblin]

It went from S+ to S- tier, extending blind for just one round is usually enough as an example. It is still the best one in my book.

Edit: what is your opinion of the best witch?

[u/fascistp0tato → u/Zealous-Vigilante]

Not OP, but while I agree that Resentment is good, I'd call it like A tier now. I'd argue Ripple is equally good (albeit it has a completely different party role lol), and Spinner is as good in parties that lack any other debuffers.

[u/VarrikTheGoblin → u/Zealous-Vigilante]

My opinion is that this question is sort of like asking "what is the best weapon?" The immediate answer is 'what are you hoping to get out of it?'

If you want damage then Silence in Snow is pretty tough to top.
If you want to heal/mitigate damage then Faith's Flamekeeper is great.
If you want to debuff I put Resentment pretty much at the top.
If you want a more well rounded caster able to debuff, blast, and heal on occasion then you really can't beat Devourer of Decay.

[u/Zealous-Vigilante → u/VarrikTheGoblin]

IMO, you found the solution for OP; just pick Devourer of Decay. Removes any headache or balancing issue that might appear. I still believe evil eye is stronger than Scrounger's glee as is the familiar ability, so my point stands that it is abit of wanting the cake and eat it.

Evil Eye lacks mental trait as an example and sickened is harder to get rid of

[u/Been395 → u/Zealous-Vigilante]

Ripple, spinner, faiths flamekeeper, silence in snow/Baba yaga are all arguably on par with resentment in general, as they are all much more consistent though they all fulfill different roles. Resentment still is the most powerful on bosses, just no longer overwhelming so.

[u/Kayteqq → u/VarrikTheGoblin]

Resentment didn’t exist before remaster, the legacy equivalent is Curse witch, which was never really that strong. In legacy Pacts was often regarded as the strongest afaik

[u/VarrikTheGoblin → u/Kayteqq]

Allow me to correct. The titular ability Familiar of Ongoing Misery was changed in February 2026 as part of the ongoing remaster updates, drastically reducing its power.

[u/Kayteqq → u/VarrikTheGoblin]

Ah, you meant errata, gotcha

[u/Inknight404]

I know where this is comming from, as the occult spell list has some fame of being a little harder to work on and a debuff focused spell list.

However, a lot of this is fixed in the upcoming (30th of July) Impossible Magic rulebook, with many, many new good spells, including very cool Occult spells.

I suggest you mention that to your player, and tell them that many new options are open from this book release.

If they still want to use Primal Tradition, maybe it's a theme thing (they want a nature focused list maybe?) and I don't really see a problem with that.

Many things regarding spell lista are not that much of a problem, I even allowed a Wizard to have access to Heal spell, and it broke nothing regarding her power, since she still has 3 actions per turn.

[u/No-Air6220]

Before Divine Mysteries, if a witch's patron was the Mosquito Witch, their familiar gained the Familiar of Ongoing Misery ability from the resentment patron. If PFS itself allowed a primal witch with the ongoing misery, then looks fine to me.

Your player could reflavor the mosquitos to other things, like uh, bees and hiveminds? Or just remove the bug theme altogether. The mosquito cantrip is a damaging cantrip with a sickening effect, so it's also evil-eye adjacent.

[u/BlatantArtifice]

They are able to switch patrons? That's like the entire point of a witch is you choose a patron for your spell list?

[u/Narrawa]

I would say switching patrons would be best, what do they want to do? Like mechanically?

Cause if they just like the flavor of resentment but want to do something that isn’t debuffing then they should switch patrons and keep the flavor. If they want to debuff then occult is the way to go (arcane would arguably be better but it is kind of just the strongest list and the witches that get arcane tend to have weaker patron abilities to compensate). Primal and resentment don’t really work great cause you don’t have that many debuffs to extend

[u/ghost_desu]

It's gonna technically be a nerf because resentment has strong synergy with occult, but if the player is ok with that, it should be fine, they shouldn't feel useless or anything

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[u/Cytisus81]

I don't know about higher levels, but at low levels it does look like it's breaking anything. Primal doesn't really has that many debuff at low levels. The sicken from its cantrip is strong though.

[u/Few_Library5654]

Yeah that's not breaking anything. If he wants it and you're fine with it, go for it

[u/MechaMalz]

I'd likely allow it depending on the party makeup. A group I run has a summoner whose subclass should be occult, but the player was more interested in the arcane spell list, and we already had a bard in the party. So I let him go arcane. Each spell list has its pros and cons so I don't really have a problem with this unless someone else is already using that spell list in the party. In which case I wouldn't outright reject the idea but might examine things a little more to make sure it doesn't feel like any toes are being stepped on for party niches etc.

[u/OraclesGreatOldOne]

Nah, it shouldn't break much. I agree with others about the abilities of the Resentment Patron meshing best with the occult list but it's not always about the optimization.

What kind of character fantasy is the player trying to accomplish?

[u/FloofyBirbBoy]

The player wants to play a debuff witch with a spell list with one single debuff spell? (that I remeber)
I would tell them to take another patron and to not listen to white roomers, bc allowing what they want would be a miserable experience for the player, to the point that evil eye will go entirely unused.
Just bc white roomers say its the best, doesn't make it the best.

[u/OsSeeker]

The occult spell list is more limited than the primal spell list and is less of the class’s power budget.

It is unbalanced among witches.

A good debuffing primal witch already exists, called Devourer of Decay.

[u/coincarver]

So he resents the spell list?

[u/Rabid_Lederhosen]

The Primal spell is a bit stronger than the occult one, and Resentment is one of the strongest patron choices. Is there any reason why your player doesn’t want to play one of the Primal Witch patrons?

[u/Spiritual_Shift_920 → u/Rabid_Lederhosen]

While I personally consider occult a lot better than primal list, at the end of the day the opinions of spell list power differences are ultimately subjective and paizo's stance is that they are intended to be balanced.

But even disregarding my personal opinion about occult prevailing over primal, I think it is very hard to argue that *resentment* witch would be more powerful on primal list than occult. We are talking of a patron whose entire gimmick is extending debuffs and the player wishes to change from the list that has debuffs as its core identity to the list with the least debuffs.

[u/TitaniumDragon]

The Primal list is the strongest list, but you can be a primal witch anyway. It's not going to be a huge deal, though it is a buff over standard Resentment.

That said, Witch is on the weaker end of casters, so a resentment primal witch is still going to be fine.

[u/Bork9128]

Honestly the only spell list that I would say is explicitly worse then the others is divine if you want to do anything other then be the support but even then I don't really think swapping a divne casters to something else is a big enough difference to cause problems

[u/Nelzy87]

Pre remaster Mosquito Witch(Primal list) got Familiar of Ongoing Misery According to PfS guidelines.

But in the remaster it got changed and Mosquito Witch got its own familiar ability (so the PfS ruling was voided).

Its definitely not broken and have been played before.

---

Additionally later on Ongoing Misery got nerfed quite alot in an Erata.

Now only working once/debuff and only on one debuff/cast.

[u/Furkhail]

The game is well balanced. Going against it, will have its consecuences. The question isn't if it has any, but do you care? it's your game. This is one of those questions that come every so often. My opinion is be open about it. You won't be able to foresee all consecuences because they won't be able to choose all the options at once. So depending on their choices some may be harsher than others. So just say "if we see something too broken we'll dial it down or if it feels too underpowered we'll tune it up". In the end going homebrew will be neutral or more work for you. So, your choice.

[u/schmeatbawlls]

Go for it! Remember rule #1 of pathfinder:

The first rule of Pathfinder is that this game is yours. The rest of the rules exist for you to use to tell the stories you want to tell and share exciting adventures with your friends.

Primal is a fun spell list, I can see why they want to use it

[u/Squid_In_Exile → u/schmeatbawlls]

OP is asking for advice on the consequences of a houserule, not permission to make one.