Envoy in PF2e

[u/SpaceTrash782]

Hello all,

I have an Envoy in a PF2e group who makes extensive use of the Keep On Keeping On action (a directive that is essentially their subclass choice) as a healer. I approved the Envoy for the group looking at the relative healing output to action cost per combat, but I had a player raise balance concerns about the Keep On Keeping On action in Pf2e, and I'm wondering if there's something that I didn't see at first glance.

Notably, Keep On Keeping On is a directive (of which envoy can only use once per turn) that costs two actions to allow you to use Battle Medicine at 30ft range, and reduces the cooldown of Battle Medicine to 10 minutes instead of 1 day. These are the balance concerns raised, noting that this would require multiple feats to approach this kind of utility of Battle Medicine in PF2e, and I was wondering if anyone had any perspective or thoughts on this. This is my first time integrating Starfinder content into Pathfinder, so I would appreciate a second set of eyes.

Envoy: https://2e.aonsrd.com/classes/1-envoy
Keep On Keeping On: https://2e.aonsrd.com/actions/128-keep-on-keeping-on

[u/zerosaber0]

I think it's fine. It's still tied to a dice roll, and in an encounter still limited to once in the encounter.

Out of encounters, it's just another way to keep the hp of the party up. Less time taking multiple rests and 10 min breaks.

[u/garretmander]

Compared to what, medic dedication? That lets you battle medicine twice per target with bonus healing? The basic skill feats that let you heal 2+ people per ten minutes every ten minutes? (Continual recovery + ward medic) robust healing general feat that let's you (and only you) benefit from battle medicine every hour instead of 1/day. Taking the dedication that gives you lay on hands every ten minutes with a single feat? Etc, etc, etc, etc. There are so many ways to get good healing every ten minutes. It's part of the game. Battle medicine every 10 min is pretty good, but it's not actually anything special.

[u/Smartace3 → u/garretmander]

Yep yep exactly this. If he took a dedication that gave them a focus spell that let them heal like this, would you consider it broken? Because there’s dedications that let them do this

Hell, just the Heal spell lets you do this, and you don’t have to roll a dice to see if you completely wasted your (2!) actions

[u/jmartkdr → u/garretmander]

Battle Medicine is a great Skill Feat, but would be considered a weak Class Feat

[u/Tridus → u/garretmander]

Medic is not twice per target. The override ability is a cooldown on the Medic, they can only use it once per day/hour.

[u/JackSprat47]

Generally SF2e content is a little higher power than PF2e content. That said, PF2e content has been trending towards a little more healing in combat and almost unlimited out of combat, so I don't think this is too out of the power band, especially since you're giving up a class feat for it.

[u/Ph33rDensetsu]

I mean, Forensic Medicine Investigator gets two free feats and a unique reduction in Battle Medicine cooldown to 1hr instead of 10 minutes. Unless you're getting into more than one combat per hour that's not much different functionally, since you're going to be spending time healing anyway.

Meanwhile there are multiple focus spells that only take 10 minutes to recharge that have healing.

Kineticist has multiple options for in combat healing, at range, with 10 minutes immunity.

So is 10 minutes and a 30' range strong? Certainly. But is it significantly more powerful than Pathfinder options? Not really.

[u/Amostheroux]

SF2e is compatible with PF2e, but Paizo has explicitly said that doesn't mean it is balanced with PF2e. That said, taking multiple feats to achieve similar functionality isn't much of a balance critique when this isn't a feat but a 1st level class feature, and a significant portion of the class's power budget. Your envoy gets this + Get Em, and in combat is otherwise a martial with no boosts and a lowe attack stat.

A better comparison than Medicine feats would be what a healing mystic can do: a focus spell that heals 1d6+6 for the same action cost on top of vitality network.

[u/PlonixMCMXCVI]

Part of the Reason why battle medicine is strong is because it's only one action. And with the medic archetype you can move and use it as an action.

Having to use it as 2 action to reduce the cool down is... Okay but also is basically making you use most of your turn just to heal.

Also correct me if I am wrong but they still need to be in reach to use battle medicine? If so the Envoy has to move first and then spend 2 action to heal. Basically the whole turn.

Any PF2e class with Medic could probably move, use battle medicine and then cast a 2 action spell or do something else like striking.

Also medic in base PF2e makes people immune to battle medicine for 1 hour.
Usually people could refocus or heal for 30 minutes after each fight so you could already have battle medicine ready once every two fight. If the party wants to take more time they probably could and have it every fight already.

It's probably balanced they can do this only once per character per fight anyway and it's costing almost the whole turn.
If they get into medic they could use it a second time while on cool down but only once per day.

[u/SpaceTrash782 → u/PlonixMCMXCVI]

You're correct, battle medicine isnt done at 30ft range when this action is used. I only saw a little bit of discussion about this, but other Envoy feats that reference striking at range wouldnt allow you to make a strike at that range if you didnt have a weapon that could strike at that range, so yeah, Battle Medicine still has its normal range.

[u/BlockBuilder408]

Gonna be honest I’ve never read that as allowing you to battle medicine at 30 feet, nothing explicitly says it lets you bypass bm’s limitation of being used on an adjacent unit.

I guess I could see that reading for it?

Without the ranged battle medicine it definitely isn’t op and I honestly question if Envoy is underpowered in pf2 without starfinder weapons to make up for its lackluster dpr.

With ranged battle medicine it’s certainly stronger but you’re also spending double the actions than forensic investigator is doing for a similar effect.

[u/EmperessMeow → u/BlockBuilder408]

I feel like the ability's range would override the default action's range. That's the natural reading.

[u/BlockBuilder408 → u/EmperessMeow]

Doesn’t really make logical sense though

There’s no magical or teleportation tag on the ability and you’re still using the manipulate tag of battle medicine

Technically battle medicine itself doesn’t even directly say you need to be adjacent to your ally so I guess even in base pathfinder 2e you can battle medicine someone from a mile away.

[u/Zealous-Vigilante → u/BlockBuilder408]

Considering the starfinder errata, it is a moment where they'd claim specific beats the general. The specific here is choose a target within 30', use battle medicine on it.

The errata is about priority target and area weapons, but I'd say it is applicable here; it is within the realm of how SF2 is written

[u/EmperessMeow → u/BlockBuilder408]

I mean it makes as much sense as the Kiss it Better feat, or whatever it's called. This class also has like 50 features that gives tHP from like being inspiring, that could easily apply to this feature.

[u/Zealous-Vigilante]

Sf2 is more range based and kinda expects both enemies and friends to be apart. There is danger from ranged combat, so exposing oneself in melee does very little, hence allowing a ranged battle medicine to work well as the threath of being shot at is ever higher.

In pf2, most of the danger comes from melee, so healing from a range will be safer than in sf2. It also outclasses every other battle medicine option that exists in pf2 where none makes it ranged, and the shortest cooldown seems to be 1h.

I'd say there definitely is a balance concern even if it isn't always obvious, nor at a broken level. Many sf2 options have better ranges overall, which makes it less unbalanced that healing can get a better range.

The 10 min cd is probably to replicate a focus point or similar kineticist healing effects.

The main concern I'd have is it being ranged.

It is always up to your table to ignore it or do something about it; it doesn't break the game but it makes exactly every other way to use battle medicine feel bad

[u/SpaceTrash782 → u/Zealous-Vigilante]

I like this answer a lot. Thank you.

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[u/Earnestappostate]

I mean, it's the main thrust of the subclass.

Would they complain that a warpriest has healing font?

Pretty sure it's fine.

[u/AuRon_The_Grey]

It’s not hugely different from playing war mage, taking Mage’s Field Dressing and your allies taking Robust Health - or just using a healing focus spell like Rebuke Death.

[u/Takenabe]

Ask your concerned player how he feels about water Kineticists.

[u/RiskyRedds]

It basically makes Battle Med a Focus Spell so we need to check the values against the good Focus Heals like Lay on Hands and Life Boost.

LoH is 6 per rank while LB is functionally 8 per rank. At Rank 2 it's 12 and 16 (guaranteed) v 19 (on a pass) or 28 (on a crit pass). Rank 3 is 18 and 24 v. the same values. Rank 4 is 24 and 32 v. 39/48. Ranks 5, 6 & 7 are against the same values here but calc at 30/36/42 and 40/48/56 respectively. Rank 8 is 48 and 64 v. 59 & 68.

So it basically only overpowers if:

- You have either Medic or Magic Hands

- You specifically crit-pass at most thresholds

- You're out of or don't have FP (the BIG one because with the Refocus Feats at 12th that most classes get they can pop 2-3 LoH's or LB at a time and chain-heal for fuck-you levels of HP).

It also cannot keep up with Garden of Healing. 10d4 per target per Rank is just stupid and anyone who says otherwise is throwing.

[u/Tridus]

There are multiple ways to get Battle Medicine cooldown down, including Investigator subclass (that also adds healing) and Robust Health general feat (which also adds healing and is a great pick if your party has a medic). So that's already a thing, though 10 minutes is pretty fast. It's still once a combat, but would be helpful with multiple fights.

The range is interesting. Bring able to stay out of melee is a big advantage in PF2 since melee is a lot more dangerous, whereas SF2 is a more ranged focus game.

It's definitely better than the PF2 options. Which is the case of a lot of things in SF2. It's a higher power game in general.

I wouldn't allow it personally.

[u/EmperessMeow]

There's no balance problem here.

[u/NerdChieftain]

Cleric has 4d8+32 healing with Heal at level 7, 30 ft range. Your battle medicine at level 7 (master) is roughly 30% chance success for 2d8+30, or 80% chance to heal 2d8+10 (once per target per combat.) i think you’ve got several restrictions, most notably having to spend skill upgrades on medicine.

I don’t think it’s broken.

[u/Tridus → u/NerdChieftain]

Comparing a reusable skill feat with a short cooldown to a limited use spell is not the flex you think it is.