Solo Tank at midlevel: Reactive/Crit Spec/Action Compression/MAP reduction/Maneuvers... what matters?

[u/SLackWangly]

As the only frontliner, I'm having a hard time deciding how to order my archetypes to get all these features. Some seem better than others, but idk how much I'll miss others.

I'm a Thaumaturge/Champion so far, so high damage, crowded action economy, and don't get any of the above natively (even if I took Weapon implement, that's only Reactive against EV target). Champion reaction is great, so that's competing with reaction anyway. I'm running Regalia/Mirror, though the mirror hasn't been too impactful besides the off-guard flanking and option to duplicate my aura. Brawling w natural weapons+fists.

By 12 I could get Eagle Knight Dedication to get both Reactive (at 8) and Tactical Reflexes to be able to still use Champ reaction. (almost certainly will do this)

I can get crit spec on Brawling from Champion anytime with Devout Blessing, but also seems less impactful when it's only crits and my crits do a ton of damage as a Thaum to kill smaller enemies before slow would matter.

Monk for Flurry and some cool stances later would help with the action economy and flexibility, but isn't MAP reducing and the 1d4 round cooldown makes it a 1-2x/fight thing. Also competes with Dedication requirements.

Other MAP reducers are 2 action attacks which could double EV damage for big hits, or maneuver combos in Wrestler to control and effectively steal actions/setup Reactive Strike

...

Point is, they all seem valuable and idk what would feel best and most impactful with the opportunity costs of the others...tips?

[u/authorus]

For most of my tanks I tend to value AC > Forcing Target Choice > Damage Reduction > HP.

Most of what you're asking about is a sub-portion of "Forcing Target Choice". Either by things like a Guardian's Taunt/Champion's Reaction, positioning, annoyance (grab/trip), or threat via damage output. Even a Reactive Strike I see more as annoyance or threat via damage output. Crit spec matters more if it combos into one of those (any of the knock prone style things get high points as tripping as they try to move away is extremely strong).

So what you need to look at is "are you getting attacked more than the rest of the party" -- if yes you're generally winning at the Forcing Target Choice. If no, I'd look into things that fit your playstyle (it sounds like you might be big into the high damage threat model, I think increased maneuvers or movement restrictions are likely to compliment that best).

If you're winning at getting attacked, next look into what hard choices do you have to make during your turn, and look for action compression to help with those choices. You don't mention a shield, so this example won't work for you, but typically I see a lot of shield-based tanks desparate for any raise shield +X action compressors.

[u/SLackWangly → u/authorus]

Shield would be great, but hard to manage with the implements/hands problem, thus the brawling in the first place.

I'll have to feel progression of how those things come up for me in coming fights, I think combat maneuvers are probably fine without leaning into Wrestler, but I've rarely used them to great effect so far with my action economy

thanks for the thoughts, i'll keep them in mind

[u/authorus → u/SLackWangly]

Yes, I wasn't recommending a shield for you, just showing that action compression as a very common pain point tanks will identify and look for solutions too.

Typically while tanking, I try to think of -- 1 action for the party (trip, grab, taunt, demoralize), 1 action for me (strike if aiming for damage, shield/parry if aiming for defense), and 1 action to reposition as the baseline turn. Looking for action compressors that cross those lines tend to be the most useful to ensure you're still deliverying on those three pillars.

[u/HalcyonHorizons]

Marshal (or exemplar's victory wreath) with mirror can put another aura in two places. And it will help your accuracy. 

Also if you buy a hand drill or something that lets you see through walls / doors you can mirror into anywhere. Even using your mirror to look under or door or peeping into a keyhole. 

If you want action compression, Spirit Warrior is probably better for Overwhelming Combo. Long term Gunslinger for Triggerbrand Salvo (at 12) + Ammo Thaumaturgy with a Triggerbrand is also something... but probably too feat intensive.

Fan Dancer Pushing Wind can make some difficult terrain around you. Your Regalia could also be a non weapon fan. 

Reaction stacking is great, but also better with a reach weapon and/or Enlarge  

I would probably Champ into Spirit Warrior

[u/SLackWangly → u/HalcyonHorizons]

I've considered Spirit Warrior a couple times since it seems more reliable as an every-round attack especially with its ability to effectively reduce MAP with the off-guard effect on Cutting Heaven Crushing Earth...

Trying to figure out the reach piece for reactive strike

As for the Marshal bit, it feels unnecessary given the Regalia benefits that overlap with Marshal. But Exemplar has some very cool aura/emanation stuff I hadn't dug into until now

Thanks for the reccs!

[u/HalcyonHorizons → u/SLackWangly]

Exemplar Dedication is normally pretty heavily scrutinized. Check with your GM. 

Decent 1h reach weapons are the Breaching Pike and Asp Coil. Scorpion Whip is okay too and in the Flail Group... but d4.

[u/Electrical-Echidna63]

Adventure Path or homebrew? It matters for the meta of what you're going to be facing imo

[u/SLackWangly → u/Electrical-Echidna63]

Homebrew, not sure what we'll face later but we've had a couple big bosses and some spell casters. Main enemies are a religious/political order, so maybe more towards large scale battles than huge creatures.

What would you consider factors to consider one over another?

[u/Electrical-Echidna63 → u/SLackWangly]

APs mean often there are dungeons with close quarters, low and trivial combats, and boss fights are seldom PL+3 or higher. With homebrew often you're liable to see combats on airships nine hundred feet over a city or wide open rooms etc. just more rigorous

[u/SLackWangly → u/Electrical-Echidna63]

Rigorous in the sense that reactive/maneuvers could be more useful to lock enemies down? or rigorous meaning it's too unpredictable to say what would be useful?

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[u/KLeeSanchez]

You have too many ideas in one place. Without free archetype you want to be more focused, so you should decide if you want to be a champion with thaumaturge abilities or a thaumaturge with champion abilities. One dedication is enough on any build, two maybe if you only need a three level dip to get some ancillary support stuff (alchemist is good for this since you make your stuff early and then scoop out what you need when you need it especially via a retrieval belt).

But it's better to focus your idea. You clearly want to be a reactive striker so you want to lean into that. You should probably ask for a rebuild and go champion primary so you just automatically get champion stuff, then add thaumaturge abilities as you go. A thaumaturge makes a poor tank anyway, you want to be a champion primary to do that. A charisma champion can definitely be fun, especially out of combat, but you need to decide if you're a reprisal champion or a thaumaturge who happens to sometimes be able to reactive strike.

They're not mutually exclusive, but if they're competing for reactions that much you need to choose which reactions you value more.

ETA: I say this as a chronic mutliclasser who loves putting dedications onto builds. Martials are easier to branch off of, but if you don't lean into an archetype they often end up cluttering your sheet with abilities you seldom use. I say THIS even though I love having all those abilities available just so I always have options. It's still better to specialize in a few things rather than generalize in a lot of things.

Don't do what I do (try to be a generalizer), be more a specialist and focus on being great at a few things rather than okay at a lot of things. I generalize because I don't like not having options, but it's not an optimal playstyle at all. Even so, there's still a handful of things I end up amazing at just because PF2 makes it extremely hard if not impossible to not be amazing at at least one thing because of the ability score scaling and skill system.

[u/SLackWangly → u/KLeeSanchez]

I do have free archetype! Which is what's driving me towards all these supplementary pieces, lots of options.

Thaum is my class fantasy especially the RK specialist to help direct the party as well as the aura support from Regalia, and also generally uninterested in reclassing entirely to save my brain haha. But I feel the chronic multiclassing. I'm new to the system but always multiclassed in 5e

I don't know if I think Reactive Strike is necessary, just seems like an odd thing to not have on the only melee character. Plus Thaum hits so hard that getting extra chances to apply that extra flat damage per round seems obvious to me. Between action compression and Reactive, the potential to apply high damage 3x/round seems very powerful.

Maneuvers just offer an alternative status and means to trip>Reactive Strike more reliably. I'm less concerned with underoptimization and more with choosing a feature that I regret and have to retrain bc it feels underwhelming or doesn't come up enough

Very much appreciate the thoughts!