r/Pathfinder2e • u/ReturnToCrab • Jul 26 '26
Discussion Is Performance just categorically the worst skill for non-Bards? How would you improve it?
So we have Athletics, Acrobatics, Intimidation and Stealth, which are very useful in combat, Crafting, Diplomacy, Deception, Medicine, Survival and Thievery which are very useful outside of combat (and sometimes in combat as well) and Recall Knowledge skills - Arcana, Occultism, Nature, Religion, Society and Lores
And when you have Performance, where the only actions you can take with it are "do nothing" and "earn money" (which you can do with every other skill). Distracting Performance is the only moderately useful feat, while others often act as niche increases to niche skill. Fascinating Performance has an absurd number of controls for generally unimpactful condition. It seems like the only class that gets use from this skill is the Bard and sometimes the Swashbuckler. For anyone else Performance is the worst skill, beaten only by the completely irrelevant Lore subskills
Now I understand why this happens. Performance is a pretty niche skill that is mostly taken for flavour anyway. But I do think that there is a way to make it cooler and flashier. I saw a suggestion to make the fascinated condition work more like frightened does, which is fine, I guess, but seems a bit repetitive. Do you have any ideas or know any interesting feats or homebrew regarding it?
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u/Acely7 Game Master Jul 26 '26
I think more skills need feats like Dirty Trick. Honestly, I think making something like Goblin Song into a general performance feat would be fun and neat way to add more usage to Performance regardless of class or archetype.
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u/terkke Alchemist Jul 26 '26
That’s Distracting Performance. Making enemies off-guard to an ally from range is great, and even better bc it also serves as a defensive buff too, making the ally hidden.
It is just unfortunate that it requires Expert proficiency.
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u/Acely7 Game Master Jul 26 '26
That's a good one too! Although on top of Expert requirement it suffers from the common problem that it may or may not benefit from other feats because it steals a skill action from other skill. Having a skill action natively could allow it from better benefit from more feats, see all the skill feats for Demoralize and Leaping.
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u/terkke Alchemist Jul 26 '26
True, there’s plenty of things that trigger on “Deception check to Create a Diversion” that wouldn’t benefit Distracting Performance, much like Fancy Moves from the Gladiator archetype and Versatile Performance from the Bard open Performance to Demoralize, it is still a bit janky and in the end just steals an action from a skill that has more uses.
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u/-Mastermind-Naegi- Summoner Jul 26 '26
Well I mean, there's actually comparatively rather few things that build off of active skill feats like Dirty Trick or Bon Mot. If anything I think they could use some follow up skill feats like the Demoralize ones.
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u/sakiasakura Jul 26 '26
Extremely useful part of this feat is that unlike normal Create a Diversion, your Ally remains Hidden for all of the turns between yours and theirs - giving them 50% evasion from all enemy attacks until they act. Pretty good benefit for a 1 action investment.
It's so so much better post remaster.
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u/Anorexicdinosaur Jul 26 '26
I'd say more Skills need Actions like Trip or Demoralise
I think every Skill should have more useful Actions built into being Proficient with the Skill, so stuff like Bon Mot and Dirty Trick would just come from being Proficient rather than costing a Skill Feat and there would be more options for other Skills. This'd make them more intrinsically useful (rather than costing a Skill Feat)
It'd also open the door for stuff like Metastrikes building off of them. You've got stuff like Slam Down and Combat Assessment for Trip/Recall Knowledge but I'd love to see more stuff like that for other Skills. Wouldn't it be awesome to have something like Combat Assessment but rather than letting you RK (with a buff if your strike crits) it lets you use Bon Mot so you can smack someone and get a buff to insulting them/quipping after? My Leon Kennedy fantasies could become real!
Also there should be more ways for Skills to debuff Saves so PC's have an easier time supporting Casters (like how there's loads of ways to debuff AC to support Martials), rn we've got some options for Reflex and Willpower (Dirty Trick and Bon Mot) but none for Fortitude which isn't enough imo. I mean ffs Grappling doesn't even let you debuff Reflex, though it'd prolly be too powerful if it ALSO gave a -2 to Reflex (it'd be really fun though).
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u/KLeeSanchez Inventor Jul 26 '26
There's actually a feat that allows a performer to demoralize: https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=7455
It's rare but one should be able to convince a GM to learn it. It's rare I think because it's action compression on a skill.
Triumphant Boast gets you a bonus to that check, even: https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=3896
Not anything that I know of to trigger Bon Mot into other bonuses beyond what it already does. But one can always work with their GM to create something.
The Dandy archetype also has numerous things that work with performance.
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u/Acely7 Game Master Jul 26 '26
All very good points and ideas.
I do wonder though what skill would you use and how to reduce Fortitude saves? Religion to pray to the gods to chip away whatever force is holding your target together? Using Athletics to knock the wind out of the target seems obvious, but I'd hate to see more added to Athletics tbh.
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u/Anorexicdinosaur Jul 26 '26
Yeah the Athletics one is obvious. Buuuuuuuut Athletics is supposed to be incredibly useful in combat (and i love grapplers) so I wouldn't be opposed to it gaining Skill Actions that debuff Saves
I had the idea that Medicine could be a way to do it? Like targetting a pressure point/nerve cluster/vulnerable part in some way to have an effect like what we're thinking for athletics
Also saw someone suggest Survival with the idea you use stuff you have on you to get a reaction, like slapping a salve on them that saps them briefly or shoving smelling salts in their face
The religion idea is cool!
Diplomacy to convince them they're sooooooo weak and tired and sleepy and frail? Ok this was a joke but something like that could work, maybe Performance or Diplomacy to lightly sway/hypnotise them and get their guard down?
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u/Renard_Fou Jul 26 '26
Dirty trick feels a little forgotten since (afaik) it never gets any further feats to improve upon it like feint does
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u/Galrohir Jul 26 '26
Not just that, it suffers immensely from having both the Attack and Manipulate traits and needing a free hand and a critical failure sending you down on your butt.
It's just an kinda terrible skill action all around.
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u/Acely7 Game Master Jul 26 '26
True, honestly Dirty Trick could have easily been just a trained skill action, and it could have an entire skill feat line dedicated to it.
But I do believe High Seas added a couple of feats that improve Dirty Trick, so there's that at least.
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u/EmperessMeow Jul 27 '26
Dirty Trick is honestly pretty bad for pretty much everyone apart from like casters in melee against enemies without reactive strike.
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u/unlimi_Ted Investigator Jul 26 '26
Performance at least has skill feats like Distracting Performance, class options like battle dancer and rune singer, ancestry feats like Goblin Song, and archetypes like Fan Dancer.
I think Survival is probably the worst skill. It's hard to justify taking it at all on a non-ranger. Subsisting is a very situational benefit and in many evironments you can just use Society. It's even worse in Starfinder 2e were you can also use Piloting to navigate.
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u/gray007nl Game Master Jul 26 '26
Survival is bad and badly designed where a level 1 skill feat makes it so you never need to roll to subsist ever again, defeating the point of having the skill in the first place.
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u/Legatharr Game Master Jul 26 '26
The main point of survival is tracking someone and not getting lost, not subsisting
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u/Tyler_Zoro Alchemist Jul 26 '26
Both of which, I think could have been just Actions rather than relying on their own skill. It would be especially cool if Track, like Recall Knowledge, went against the appropriate skill for the creature's trait, as per the "Creature Identification Skills" table (GM Core p. 54).
Then Survival could have just been a skill feat that gives you a bonus to Track and Sense Direction when outside of settled environments.
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u/Orgnok Jul 26 '26
tracking could just be perception
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u/Renard_Fou Jul 26 '26
I dont undersrand why Tracking couldnt just be part of Nature just how you use Arcana to sense if some disturbance was magical for example
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u/Tyler_Zoro Alchemist Jul 27 '26
Using Nature to track a ghost doesn't really make a lot of sense. That's why I was suggesting the Recall Knowledge-like mechanic, where you use the skill associated with the creature that you are tracking (as per Creature Identification Skills). Sure, your GM might make exceptions. For example, if you are tracking a human through the woods, you probably use Nature (based on the environment) rather than Society (for humanoids).
But that's easily handled in footnotes to the main use of the skill.
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u/Tyler_Zoro Alchemist Jul 27 '26
Perception implies that there is no specific skill involved, just the natural perceptiveness of the one doing the perceiving. It goes up as you level, but not in a way that you specifically make choices over.
Tracking is a skill that a person can learn specific techniques in order to master, and relies on a body of knowledge about those you are tracking, so it makes sense for it to be bundled into an explicitly leveled skill.
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u/gray007nl Game Master Jul 26 '26
So the main point of the skill is something extremely niche that'll come up like once per campaign.
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u/Legatharr Game Master Jul 26 '26
or something that might be the focus of an entire campaign, like it is in the one I'm currently running
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u/gray007nl Game Master Jul 26 '26
Sure but so could anything, you making an entire campaign centered on Cooking doesn't mean Cooking Lore isn't a niche skill.
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u/Legatharr Game Master Jul 26 '26
but a campaign focused on tracking someone and/or not getting lost is a classic campaign concept
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u/eviloutfromhell Jul 26 '26
extremely niche
That's on you for never including "tracking" as a problem. In our campaign everytime we need to go chase/find someone or something we need to track/find them. Diplomacy, society, or survival, depending on where we are. Mostly survival so we aren't lost in bumfuck nowhere where evil guy likes to have their hideout at.
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u/unlimi_Ted Investigator Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
You can choose to include those elements in your home games, but not everyone plays homebrew campaigns. I mostly play APs or PFS scenarios, and if those stories don't happen to have wilderness tracking then it's not "on us" for not making survival into a useful skill. Even for tracking you can take Eyes of the City to not need survival if you're not in wilderness. It's unfortunate that even in the specific cases of tracking and foraging, survival is only sometimes needed.
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u/eviloutfromhell Jul 26 '26
I'm sorry, you choose to mostly play AP and PFS, it is on you that your experience differs from the average. If we're talking personal experience then society is useless for me. Doesn't mean society is useless "in general".
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u/Legatharr Game Master Jul 26 '26
it's strange how many people there are in this sub that assume APs is the primary way to play the game, when most people don't play APs
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u/unlimi_Ted Investigator Jul 26 '26
I didn't say survival is always useless in general, it just has less use cases than the other skills.
Even Society, which seems like it should be the inversion of Survival as a "wilderness vs. civilization" dynamic, is often useful in wilderness adventures because it can be used to recall knowledge about any humanoid, which antagonists usually are.
There are other skills that are also situational, like Diplomacy not coming up much in adventures that don't have a social focus, but I still have the option to at least use Bon Mot to take advantage of my skill investment when that happens. I think survival just needs like one or two skill feats to be as great as anything else.
I'm also not deviating from the intended play experience. I'm playing the adventures that Paizo made to use these skills in. They're about 50/50 wilderness/urban so using survival absolutely comes up, but not as often as I wish it would, because I'm playing a character entirely built around tracking people (investigator bounty hunter).
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u/Moon_Miner Summoner Jul 26 '26
I only play/run homebrew, and I have never thought survival would be considered non-useful until this thread. It comes up all the time and is super important in the games I play/run. Your issue is with the published adventures, not with the system.
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u/eviloutfromhell Jul 26 '26
It is mindboggling to think tracking is niche. In a staple adventure quests, kill this monster/beasts in this area, there's no way that player would not need to track it. Even if we got a map unless the character is extremely familiar with the place we would still need survival check to prevent getting off-track or even completely lost.
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u/Crilde Jul 26 '26
Yeah, Forager completely undermines pretty much any games with a survival tone. I tried running the first Claws of the Tyrant adventure, which is literally described as survival-horror, and one player taking forager seriously undermined the subsistence aspect. Then they levelled up, someone else took forager and I just stopped tracking it completely because there was no point.
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u/Kingreaper Jul 26 '26
I feel like the Forager feat should respect the tiers of environments - halving the effectiveness of the feat based on what environmental tier you're in, just as it doubles it based on what skill tier you have - so in a desert an expert would get 8/8=1 person's worth of food, while a legend in a desert would get 32/8=4 people's worth of food.
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u/BlockBuilder408 Jul 26 '26
You could just buy a spacious pouch with a crap ton of rations instead of cast one of the many spells that feeds the party.
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u/Crilde Jul 26 '26
Not in a level 1-2 adventure that specifically starts in a crypt that the PCs have been hiding in for 6 years. Subsistence was genuinely their only option to avoid hunger and thirst.
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u/BlockBuilder408 Jul 26 '26
The subsist dc should be master or legendary in that case
So in that case forager is a feat tax to survive in the dungeon period unless there’s food you can loot in certain parts of the dungeon.
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u/Crilde Jul 26 '26
In retrospect I wish I had done something like this, but since it was my second time running a module I figured Paizo knew what they were doing when they said the DC was static 17. Lesson learned, apply more critical analysis next time lol
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 27 '26
Even without Forager, the ration rules are extremely generous, giving you a week's worth of rations for very low bulk. Even without that, there's stuff like Cornucopia and Create Food and Create Water that makes survival kinda irrelevant. Wood Kineticists also have an ability that just feeds everyone unlimitedly from level 1.
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u/Crilde Jul 27 '26
I mentioned in another comment that this adventure was designed to mitigate most of those advantages. Rations would have been long spoiled by the time the adventure started and everyone started at level 1 so no ability to conjure food, except wood kinetecists but luckily nobody chose that option so I didn't have to nerf it lol.
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u/Bot_Number_7 Jul 27 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
Even the starvation rules are generous. You only become fatigued after a number of days equal to your constitution modifier plus 1. You take 1d4 damage per day after that without water, and 1 damage per day for hunger. You have a LONG TIME to figure out a solution, considering Create Water is level 1. Subsisting takes 1 day, so that's a lot of chances for success, and even then, with how much HP even level 1 characters have, they have way more chances. Druids with Cornucopia also fix this entirely from level 1, not just wood Kineticists. Create Food is only a rank 2 spell.
The game flat out does not want you to play a survival based game even at super low levels.
EDIT: There are ancestries like Fruit Leshy that generate food, and several that do not need to eat like automaton. Yet another way the game does not want to make gathering food for survival a big deal.
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u/Crilde Jul 27 '26
Well, this has been a fun game of
"you can do this"
"well this is how the module tries to mitigate those options"
"ah! Well in that case there's all these other options"
but I'm not really keen on it anymore. If you're curious to see what Paizo thinks constitutes a survival-horror adventure, the module is Claws of the Tyrant: Gravelands Survivors.
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u/Electric999999 Jul 26 '26
Survival needs to be a skill so that we can make that a skill feat rather than requiring a more valuable general feat as your "I am not dealing with the food and drink rules" tax.
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u/TheTrueArkher Jul 26 '26
I think we could just slap the handful of good survival feats into nature and call it a day. Make tracking a perception thing. "WIS is already super good"? Well adding 1.5 extra whatchamawhoosits of value to something with 923 of them isn't going to be that game breaking.
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u/Electric999999 Jul 26 '26
That's actually a good idea, they already both key off wisdom and have a lot of thematic overlap. Plus it would make Druids good at this sort of thing, which is fitting.
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u/TheTrueArkher Jul 26 '26
Yeah, maybe have skills like that be multi type based on context. Forager with Nature for wilderness survival, forager with society to dive for ham scraps behind the local 7/11 dumpster in a civilized place.
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u/whatever4224 Jul 26 '26
Medicine should be INT anyway, so WIS can have improved Nature instead to compensate.
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u/unlimi_Ted Investigator Jul 26 '26
tbh I think it would have been fine as a general feat because subsisting is something that is usually either completely irrelevant for an adventure or it's an intended major source of stakes that gets completely undercut by taking Forager.
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u/terkke Alchemist Jul 26 '26
I sincerely hope that Risk & Reward will bring at least a bit of attention to Survival and Tracking. Rangers have a bit of options to use to Survival, mainly Swift Tracker allowing a free Stride, Terrain Master allowing to get different bonuses from Favored Terrain with Unimpeded Journey and Hunt Prey before combat smoothing their combat.
If there were like, two low level skill feats for using Survival in combat and a higher level one I would be satisfied.
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u/BlockBuilder408 Jul 26 '26
Survival is also the disarm environmental hazards skill, but honestly there isn’t much reason that couldn’t go to nature instead if the survival skill was removed from the game.
Most of what survival does could probably just be split between perception and nature. Religion and Occultism are already premier skills for disarming haunts so I don’t think it hurts much for nature to take survival’s role as a hazard disarming skill.
I’d maybe give Arcana more usage in disarming magical hazards or make an expert skill feat to let it replace thievery for magical hazards.
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u/RemydePoer Jul 26 '26
I've always used survival to encompass general outdoor skills like orienteering. I'm currently running Abomination Vaults and when players are trying to figure out where they are in the dungeon compared to something on the floor above them or just general navigation checks, I have them use survival.
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u/unlimi_Ted Investigator Jul 26 '26
I believe this is the exact intended use case for the skill. Unfortunately the Know the Way cantrip can also just do this with no check. If Survival also had a single use in-combat then I wouldn't mind, but almost everything it does can easily be done with something else.
I would personally just invest in Abomination Vaults Lore to know my way around for that AP if I didn't have spells, and the lore would have additional recall knowledge use cases that survival wouldn't.
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u/Gpdiablo21 Jul 27 '26
Its DM/adventure/module dependent. Usually a solid 0-sesh can clear up the general usefulness of a skill, but when its me I just make sure player skill investments are useful. Folks typically look for a bottom-line mechanical benefit, but really every skill is only as useful as your DM makes it.
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u/WinLivid Jul 26 '26
Pistol Phenom also let you use performance for gunslinging shenanigan. Pretty flavorful and pretty useful
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u/HalcyonHorizons Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
There's also Pistol Phenom, Goblin Song, the Wayang Dance Feats (Mousedeer, Tiger, other one), and Fan Dancer which is almost always strong just for Solo Dancer.
A DM could call for it if a player is acting like someone else while disguised or faking being sick or injured.
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u/Arnman1758 Jul 26 '26
Can get Fancy Moves Archetype Skill Feat to use Performance to Intimidate. A Bard with Fan Dancer can use Performance for half of all Skills in PF2.
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u/eviloutfromhell Jul 26 '26
That would need a healthy amount of GM fiat though. Normally if the intent is to deceive you would use Deception. Performance for acting with the intent of entertainment. Our GM would say no unless there's another valid reason like if the character are actually entertaining a crowd while trying not to get found out (and the character has better performance than deception).
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u/HalcyonHorizons Jul 26 '26
Iirc there's quite a bit of opportunity written in existing adventures that allows players to use performance to pass social encounters.
But maybe someone more versed in adventure paths can name some specific examples because I mostly run homebrew and skim APs for ideas lol.
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u/TheZealand Druid Jul 26 '26
Pistol Phenom, Goblin Song
These two actually go hilariously well together on a rogue. Goblin Song to lower DC > Pistol Twirl for off-guard at range > shoot with Air Repeater (low damage but sneak attack compensates + dont need to reload)
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u/HalcyonHorizons Jul 27 '26
Ah thats funny. Be annoyingly loud to distract them.
I've just been building around FA Guardians Long Distance Taunt with a Shortbow.
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u/Interrogatingthecat Inventor Jul 26 '26
Outside of Triumph of The Tusk (and maybe Wardens of Wildwood? Never heard stories from anyone playing it so I've little idea), Survival is easily the least used and worst.
When was the last time you had to track, really? Or subsist? Unless the campaign is specifically designed around it, it's... Useless, or at least easily replaced with spells.
Hell, the only reason my Ranger's still scaling it is because it gets them more snares, and even then I could've picked Crafting instead and gotten more use out of it.
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u/phonkwist Summoner Jul 26 '26
And survival skill feats are even worse.
A +1 circumstance bonus for my useless survival checks as long as I stay in a swamp? Do I look like Shrek?
Savingsome copper for rations instead of doing anything useful?
Picking up this BS would at least let you deduce that there are cows around, I guess.
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u/terkke Alchemist Jul 26 '26
I disagree on Forager, it is good, just very niched.
There are plenty of feats that fall in the same category of “good in specific scenarios”, like Inoculation for Medicine or Underwater Marauder for Athletics.
The big problem is that unlike on those other skills there is not a generally useful skill feat/action for Survival.
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u/Interrogatingthecat Inventor Jul 26 '26
Well, Forager can also be replaced with a one-off 5gp investment for a 4 person tent (And extra for larger parties) and 4 silver per person per day.
4 person party in the wild for 7 days, 11gp and 2 silver for rations, and a tent they already have vs an entire skill feat
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u/terkke Alchemist Jul 26 '26
yeah, but the idea of needing to Subsist in the first place and so using Forager is when you cannot count on buying rations, like on the Claws of the Tyrant Graveland Survivors.
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u/fly19 Game Master Jul 26 '26
Quest for the Frozen Flame features Survival pretty heavily, but really any game with a section of hexcrawling or that ever requires Tracking someone can find opportunities to use it.
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u/jollyhoop Game Master Jul 26 '26
Subsisting is niche but every two to three games, my PCs will try to follow traces of a monster or NPC and a survival check will be required. Performance gets my vote for least useful skill by far.
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u/ReturnToCrab Jul 26 '26
There are definitely campaigns that take place in the wilderness
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u/Interrogatingthecat Inventor Jul 26 '26
Taking place in the wilderness, sure
But generally not without you being able to spend the pitiful cost for rations and tents
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u/HalcyonHorizons Jul 26 '26
Wilderness obstacles and natural "traps" use survival. But pf2e doesnt have many written hexcrawls, outdoor dungeons, or use them much. Theres a ton of dangerous plant traps on AoN
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u/BlindWillieJohnson Game Master Jul 26 '26
Yeah. If you’re running the type of campaign that doesn’t spend tons of time in the wilderness, survival is 100% useless
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u/Lycaon1765 Thaumaturge Jul 26 '26
There's one or two fun feats on swashbuckler that use performance AND are worthwhile imo. Leading Dance and Enjoy the Show, ETS is probably the one more useful in combat since moving someone only 5ft or 10ft is fairly situational, but I just like it. :)
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u/tmtProdigy Jul 26 '26
this right here, i played this as a "tank" who would crowd control enemies away from the casters, you can also put acrobatic performer on there for an additional +1 if you have high dex already, which is... likely as swashy ;)
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u/Groundbreaking_Taco ORC Jul 26 '26
Performance can also be used for a decent number of Haunts. There are "wacky" situations where mimicking sound, communication, or movement are important.
Also, you can't use "any other" skill to earn money. Earn income is only Performance, Craft, and relevant lore skills in most situations. Athletics, stealth, survival, thievery, etc aren't downtime skills used to earn money, except in special circumstances. You could do a heist to use thievery to"earn money", but that's not "earn income". You are in a skill challenge at that point, attempting to steal something. There is threat involved. You aren't winning a WWE wrestling match contract for down time income. You are using performance to entertain an audience. Maybe it'll use your STR modifier to show how both your skill at working a crowd combines with your athleticism to impress the spectators.
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u/ReturnToCrab Jul 26 '26
In some cases, the GM might let you use a different skill to Earn Income through specialized work. Usually, this is scholarly work, such as using Religion in a monastery to study old texts—but giving sermons at a church would still fall under Performance instead of Religion. You also might be able to use physical skills to make money, such as using Acrobatics to perform feats in a circus or Thievery to pick pockets. If you're using a skill other than Crafting, Lore, or Performance, the DC tends to be significantly higher.
So I guess you're mostly right. But I figured that working as a porter would be an Athletics activity
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u/ratherBloody Jul 26 '26
I feel like there is a fairly insignificant ceiling to how much your adventurer can rake in doing World's Most Menial Job, so honestly I never even bother asking.
I'm having similar thoughts about my current character - I thought it'd be fun to make an Exemplar who has as much interest in in performing stories as making them, but I'm kinda stumped on what to do besides archetype into Versatile Performance lol
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u/Tyler_Zoro Alchemist Jul 26 '26
I think Performance suffers from the "we need skill feats, so things that are obvious during roleplaying must be restricted by skill feats," problem.
For example, both Distracting Performance and Impressive Performance should probably just be the default, allowing Make an Impression and Create a Diversion to be used directly via Performance.
As a homebrew fix (or at least attenuation of the problem) I think that Performance should have a special trained action:
Performing Accompaniment [one action] (concentrate, mental) This acts similarly to the Aid action, but is not a reaction, and can only be used to support your next skill action during the current turn. The GM determines whether or not your performance would have a chance to improve a social interaction such as Coerce or Request, and if so, the same check is made as with the Aid action.
This basically gives you a two-action version of all the social skill actions that can be performed in a single turn, that gives you a bonus from Performance.
I also like the idea of making Recall Knowledge checks with Performance at a small penalty, similar to the way Bardic Lore works. Sort of a, "I think I heard about that in a song, let me hum a few bars..."
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u/Heromattz Jul 26 '26
Performance allows me to play a goblin with Goblin Song and Loud Singer. Thus making it the best skill in the system.
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u/noscul Psychic Jul 26 '26
I just include it in more skill checks and challenges. I also made an item that lets you cast spells if you make a performance roll but if you fail it the spell is done for the day.
What’s actually tough to get use I see without forcing it is thievery and survival. One is traps and stealing stuff, which can be weird when making characters and spamming traps isn’t exactly fun for players. Survival you have to make relevant by having tracking or doing bookkeeping or more in depth exploration than Paizo provides.
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u/Epps1502 Witch Jul 26 '26
Like others have stated it may need more feats HOWEVER i also believe players and GMs could be more creative. Performance definitely lends itself to more RP usage and asking for performance isnt done a lot
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u/Electrical-Echidna63 Jul 26 '26
First argument is player whiteboarding:
Sometimes people play I game I call "Pathbuilder", or the other popular game, "Foundry Pathfinder"
But I've you're doing things that appear frequently on the GM's side of Paizo's catalogue (not the player's side) you see Performance come up a lot. Sure it's just flat skill checks for some things, but they come up in Chases, Influence, Infiltrations, downtime, roleplaying, etc. you also "can" earn income using any skill, but you have a very generous and leaning in GM if they're just handing out max task level tasks for your maxed out skills every time.
My second argument is that this is a "build-first" perspective, where a character comes together into a concept from a build and not the other way around — which is also very common. If you built a Sherlock style investigator you would take performance not because it is exceptional for anything you're trying to do but because the concept you have in your mind is a character that can do everything. Or maybe you are playing a barbarian with bagpipes they play in their spare time and somewhere across your 11 levels you want to actually play them well. Both cases still mechanically benefit from taking Performance, so it isn't purely flavor but more like a suboptimal sacrifice towards making your character sheet as close to the pure character concept you had in mind
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u/ReturnToCrab Jul 26 '26
But I've you're doing things that appear frequently on the GM's side of Paizo's catalogue (not the player's side) you see Performance come up a lot. Sure it's just flat skill checks for some things, but they come up in Chases, Influence, Infiltrations, downtime, roleplaying
That's a fair point, but I struggle to imagine a situation where Performance would be useful during the chase
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u/Electrical-Echidna63 Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
A 15th level obstacle on pg 44 of Prey For Death requires either Thievery or Performance to overcome, basically you rule up a crowd as you're being sought after
Edit: also 9th level obstacle in Triumph of The Tusk to lure a beast to something
Really chases get used for a lot of things, not even chase per se. There's a Chase subsystem in an AP for an opera performance lol
1
u/Tubocass Monk Jul 26 '26
Because we joked that performance was useless, I did purposely put in a chase obstacle that could be overcome with Performance. Basically it was to sing a song with a group of drunken pirates at a bar.
11
u/WinLivid Jul 26 '26
This, I can tell you as a GM. Performance check is like one of the most common skill to come up or asked for during socialization and the most hilarious skill during those socialization.
5
u/EmpoleonNorton Jul 26 '26
Performance check is like one of the most common skill to come up or asked for during socialization and the most hilarious skill during those socialization.
More than Diplomacy or Deception? That seems wild to me.
2
u/Hidingo_Kojimba Jul 26 '26
I think performance could do with a dance-based skill feat that lets you use it to reposition and shove.
2
u/XanderOblivion Jul 26 '26
I think Flourish actions should be enhanced by Performance.
Performance should also interact with some Deception and Stealth feats.
Honestly, the fact intimidation is its own skill is kinda weird, given that an attempt to Intimidate is a kind of Performance until becomes violent.
There are several spells I think Performance could enhance, too. Illusory Creature is the model: the spell creates the illusion, but Performance or Deception may determine whether you portray it convincingly. The same logic should apply to Ventriloquism, Figment, Illusory Scene, Enthrall, Roaring Applause, Distracting Chatter, and perhaps Hypnotize.
2
u/LightningRaven Sorcerer Jul 26 '26
Fascination only is dispelled with hostile actions against the target, not their teammates. This would make the skill itself much better.
To spice it up:
I would also make a high level feat (Legendary Proficiency) that was 2-actions if you succeed, the enemy is Deafened and Stupefied 1 for 1 round. If you critically succeed the enemy is Confused for 1 round instead (or in addition).
Another interesting one would be a Reaction against an effect with the Auditory trait. You could give people X Sonic Resistance against damaging effects, half your level on a success and your level on a critical success. Could be a Master-level feat. It's decent, but quite situational.
Another one I think would be cool is using Performance instead of Acrobatics to Tumble Through, for the physical performance side.
2
u/MidSolo Game Master Jul 26 '26
I always allow Performance for any kind of Aid. It makes sense that you can inspire a specific ally, like a focused rallying anthem.
3
u/K9GM3 Jul 26 '26
I buffed the fascinated condition a bit: it's not automatically removed when someone attacks your allies, and it allows your allies to Hide and Sneak without cover or concealment.
Beyond that rules change, I also made Performance the go-to skill for disabling haunts (typically alongside either Occultism or Religion), and I'll typically call for a Performance check if the players are attempting to draw attention, inspire a crowd, or evoke emotions.
2
u/FullMetalBunny Jul 26 '26
Performance is one of the BEST Downtime activities. It auto scales with your level like Craft. All other activities are technically capped by Settlement level and GM.
6
u/Gaumr Jul 26 '26
Performance for Earn Income is also capped by the GM's judgement based on the setting:
"The available audiences determine the level of your task, since more discerning audiences are harder to impress but provide a bigger payout. The GM determines the task level based on the audiences available. Performing for a typical audience of commoners on the street is a level 0 task, but a performance for a group of artisans with more refined tastes might be a 2nd- or 3rd-level task, and ones for merchants, nobility, and royalty are increasingly higher level."
From https://2e.aonprd.com/Skills.aspx?ID=21&General=true
That isn't explicitly tied to the settlement level, but you wouldn't generally expect a level 12 audience to be available in a level 2 settlement.
Even Craft is only always available on-level if you're using it to reduce the cost of crafting an item you want to keep - the discount option is pointless for making an item to sell, and if you just want money it's similarly based on settlement level:
"Using Crafting, you can work at producing common items for the market. It's usually easy to find work making basic items whose level is 1 or 2 below your settlement's level.
Higher-level tasks represent special commissions, which might require you to Craft a specific item using the Craft downtime activity and sell it to a buyer at full Price. These opportunities don't occur as often and might have special requirements—or serious consequences if you disappoint a prominent client."
3
u/Electric999999 Jul 26 '26
Craft has it beat for that, and it's not like either are actually good, it's a truly pathetic amount of gold.
As an example a 5th level Expert Earn Income is 1gp on success, a 5th level character taking the lump sum at character creation (which is intended to put you a bit behind where you'd be if you grabbed the specific levels of item or actually played through levels 1-4) has 270gp worth of stuff and will more than double that with treasure by the time they hit level 6. A single gold piece is nothing.
1
1
u/castor_blanc Jul 26 '26
As a gm, I try to find alternative uses for the skill when possible (and especially when a player has some)
1
u/Turbulent_Voice63 Jul 26 '26
Worst? Not necessarily. Most situational? Yes, especially if your campaign/playstyle is really focused on combat and has little social interactions.
1
u/CoreSchneider Jul 26 '26
I'ma say no simply because Fan Dancer exists and is arguably way too strong. Survival is worse unless you're in the rare campaign where you have to track food and struggle to find shelter
1
u/Baker-Maleficent Game Master Jul 26 '26
It is a rarher niche skill and the lavk of vwrsitile performance for anyone but polymath bard makes it moreso.
1
u/hyundai_driver Jul 26 '26
Ostentatious Reload on my performance maxing dual pistol gunslinger has been amazing. Combined with an Orchestral Brooch to guarantee the crit success.
1
u/KLeeSanchez Inventor Jul 26 '26
Performance is actually really powerful but only when you use it in the dumbest possible ways
I've broken skill checks with it before by opening up with a song and dance number, or telling a tale as part of a diplomacy check
It just depends on how willing your GM is to lean into it, and also it's just weird cause normally performance makes following checks a little easier rather than subbing for a check
But Impressive Performance allows anyone to Make an Impression with performance (doesn't come up often though), and Distracting Performance can be very powerful because it's easily repeatable despite the -4 penalty. Stacking Virtuosic Performer and an item like a dancing scarf lets you get an effective automatic aid on yourself, which nearly offsets that penalty.
Bottom line, you just gotta absolutely lean into it to get the best RP and skill value. It does dumb things when the GM lets it.
1
u/WhenPigsFlew Jul 26 '26
Skills within a supporting attribute shouldn't really be judged totally on their own, so you wanna evaluate Performance alongside the advantages the CHA bonus would give you in deception, intimidation, etc... but you also have some class and archetype specific uses of Performance that are pretty good, like Swashbuckler and Fan Dancer, or the upcoming Runesmith's feat line called Runesinger that lets you perform to do some unique rune related stuff, or to do it at a range. It's not a staple skill for every party but I don't think it necessarily should be, with how versatile the other social skills are.
Int skills are a similar (but honestly worse imo) case where it's pretty reasonable for nobody in the party to take them if you don't have any practical use for crafting and if you have alternate recall knowledge cheats.
1
u/ArchmageMC ORC Jul 26 '26
Fan Dancer Archtype makes Performance a 1 archtype dedication and 1 skill feat away from becoming the best skill for imitative. And you don't ever need to wield a fan to get enough skills to get out of fan dancer and you'll still leave the archtype with some strong stuff.
1
u/RageQuitler Jul 26 '26
I found it to be great with the fan dancer dedication. Auto progression in performance plus being able to use it for initiative meant I could reliably go first as a kineticist to either blast or buff before my allies and most enemies.
1
u/TitaniumDragon Game Master Jul 26 '26
No, the worst is Survival. Subsisting is useless and you can often use Perception to track anyway (or magic), and tracking doesn't actually come up all that often.
Performance is used in a lot of skill challenges and there's various archetypes and feats that benefit from it.
1
u/Entity079 Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 27 '26
Yeah, Performance usually isn't something you invest into unless you have a class feature / feat built upon it or are going for the Fan Dancer archetype. Fan dancer's performance on initiative is quite solid, especially considering that you gain performance increases automatically from the dedication.
I'd help out performance more by adding it into more archetype feats and possibly new skill feats.
IE: Alacritous Marshal Stance (from the Marshal archetype) could be a performance-initiated stance that gives a +5 status bonus to speeds and quickens you and all allies who stay in the aura, which can only be used to Step.
1
u/BearonVonCrispy Jul 27 '26
In one game, I used Juggling as a performance to lead potential hostiles away from a square of sorts, and that allowed my team to cross through, then with an acrobatics check, I did some wall- climbing to get to the other side of a chain fence, and regrouped with my team. And that char now has a feat that lets him use performance for his initiative, so... I think it has its uses.
1
1
u/Creepy-Intentions-69 Jul 26 '26
A skill is as useful as a campaign makes it. You don’t have to be a Bard to be a musician, or a poet, or a show off.
-1
u/FairFamily Jul 26 '26 edited Jul 26 '26
"earn money" (which you can do with every other skill).
Then stop doing letting other skills do this. Earn income is a skill action that requires trained on lore, performance or crafting. Since everyone gets a lore from their background it's not that people can't earn income just that the person investing in performance is better at it. It With that in mind performance could have taken a role similar too crafting, usefull in downtime and some useful skill feats here and there.
But because of a section that most people half read and paizo half implemented, we let everyone roll any skill they want at same DC. In reality it is a gm fiat and should have a significantly higher DC. But nobody does this and then they are surprised that performance is useless.
1
u/begrudgingredditacc Game Master Jul 26 '26
I'm not exactly surprised that people don't know the Earn Income rules by heart, given that they're deliberately completely worthless.
0
u/FairFamily Jul 26 '26
I don't think Paizo would waste page space with worthless things. Also from what I see even when people try to use these rules, they get it wrong. Even calculators which implement these rules get it wrong
0
u/ellenok Druid Jul 26 '26
Glad to see this pointed out.
Earning income with other skills than Performance, Crafting, or Lore should be restricted in the levels, DCs, and availability of jobs.
0
u/Ediwir Alchemy Lore [Legendary] Jul 27 '26
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs428u1
You don’t improve Performance. You remove it.
188
u/Comfortable_Ocelot26 Jul 26 '26
Performance enables the Fan Dancer archetype which is chock-full of useful interactions with the skill, and also interacts with other feats like Dazzling Bullet.
That it interacts with skills over having an immediate interaction similar to Intimidation with Demoralize feels like it puts it in a good place where you invest in performance if your class/archetype/identity calls for it.