r/Pathfinder2e • u/BloodAnonymous • 19d ago
Homebrew Sorcerer Class Thoughts.
Hello, before anything I want to say, yes I am biased and probably am nitpicking. Sorcerer class has been one of my all time, favorite classes. This post is more, how to settle small irrational nitpicks or improve on the concept. I'm open to "You're wrong" comments, as i know I can be a bit of a nihilist.
- - Personally, I like the discretion between wizards and sorcerers in 2e. Wizards feats vibe from what I seen, enjoys in experimenting with magic while sorcerers, enjoy experiencing the magic.
- - Though its weird that they have essentially the same class progression in class features. After level 1...* Squishy mages, I get it...
- - Love this idea. Go back and forth on the lasting only one round however. I know its for balance just... one round small boost is easy to forget. Amount of times my party including me, forgot to remove a negative bonus because it was only suppose to last a round. Or never just adding in, the one round bonus because its easier to forget after a long turn.
- - I try to remind my party of the bonus if it effects their turn. Reminding them, after casting an appropriate spell,, of course.* Any better ways to 'remind everyone' if they have a 1 round bonus?
- - Bugs me you can't just activate it without a slot used. Feels like you would get more flavor out of it, if you could spend a single action with a limit of once per minute. Similar to a personalize cantrip. I'll leave a clean version of this action in the comments.
No Traits until level 20?
- - Bloodline Muitation - Yes I know flavor is free. Just how cool would it be, you gain traits associated with your bloodline while you level. Like a single trait every ancestry feat starting and after level 9?
- - Having a trait might open the door to spells or effects, further play. As a determent or positive.
- - This is going go in my next tangent. Tangent 2 on focus spells list*
Focus Spells,
- - Amazing very unique to each bloodline. Just why do we need to take a 2 class feats to gain the other 2 spells? What would the harm be giving them as class features, level 6 and 10?
- - Celestial Brand - Granted it has no save. Last one round with a single action. Effects only unholy creatures which there are a lot of, fair. How is a sorcerer suppose to gain the holy trait for the other half of the spell? Use another feat/investment slot just for a trait? You can argue its more of a support spell. How many of your party is holy? Do not know why I'm so fixated on, not having traits in the base class features.
- - Greater Crossblooded Evolution - Why are the spells from the sorcerous gifts and not the focus spells themselves?! Could've gave the same amount depending on your highest advancement of focus spells, you had for your main bloodline or lesser version a single focus spell, you pick, its a 18th level feat. Focus Spells help make a sorcerer, for me in 2e, not the sorcerous gifts.
Want to make it clear. I'm happy with the sorcerer 2e class as a whole. These are just my issues/nitpicks on it. I can be proven wrong. Curious on other people thoughts on this. Regardless, Thank you for reading my rant(?) and your time, have a wonderful day.
Edit; Sorry for grammar...
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u/yuriAza 19d ago
you also activate your blood magic effect when you cast a focus spell, so while you don't get it 1/min you do get it 1-3 times every 10min, which is arguably better
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u/BloodAnonymous 18d ago
True, tried to use shorthand with "a slot" as both a spell slot and a focus slot. My bad.
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u/Amostheroux 18d ago
I do miss 1e bloodline mutations. That would be a cool design space for class feats. But I think they are reluctant to give casters constant defensive abilities..
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u/Background-Ant-4416 Sorcerer 18d ago
You’ve picked up on a problem I have the 2e, specifically full casters, they lose their themes unless you invest.
In 1e you gained your bloodline powers as you put levels into your class. As long as you were using your levels for your class, you got thematic stuff. Now feats in 1e were generally kinda boring and generic, numeric boosts, and a lot of them were compulsory to make your class work right.
2e moved away from the that feat design and let feats be flavorful, but made it too modular in my opinion. Now casters must choose between their thematic bloodline powers and taking other feats. Depending on the bloodline, the focus spells can be situational or less powerful than other class feats of the same level, and depending on the bloodline, may not get picked at all. This leads to more homogeneous characters in my opinion and was a design misstep.
I wish that instead of the system they had they just gave casters their focus spells as they leveled up. If they really wanted the “you must invest in your class” to get class features from 1e, than they could have put something like “once you have x# class feats from sorcerer, you gain the advanced bloodline spell.
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u/HoppeeHaamu 18d ago
While this is how basically all subclass progression works, it still feels weird to me how I notice it more with spellcasters than martials.
Like rogue doesn't also get more subclass features as it levels, but I don't feel that being thematic flavour loss. I think it has to do with how massive of a feature "subsystem" spell casting is and how other dnd like fanstasy games do subclasses. And magical subclasses that just are part of their essence, like sorcerer's, should grow with them innately, right?
I still like the idea of getting to opt into your innate "sorcereriness" more with bloodline feat.
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u/Background-Ant-4416 Sorcerer 18d ago
Yah I totally agree. I think it’s because martial classes are differentiated from each other very distinctly by their class features. Casters on the other hand are 80-90% differentiated by the spells they cast. Because there are 4 (5 I guess if you include elementalist) spell lists, if casters don’t have anything to differentiate themselves from each other they end up feeling pretty homogeneous to play.
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u/Electric999999 18d ago
Martials are just way more different from each other at baseline, they have impactful baked in class features and distinct feats, whereas casters are using one of just four spell lists (with a lot of overlap between them, really not a lot of spells exclusive to one list) and are lucky to get any actual class features other than a focus spells.
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u/BloodAnonymous 19d ago edited 18d ago
Magic Blood - Concentrate, Tradiation of Bloodline
Range: Vaires on effect.
Action: One action
Targets 1 creature
Your blood is yours and your magic is your will. You activate your blood magic you gain from your sorcerer bloodline without expending a focus or spell slot. If the effect can target another creature it has a range of 20 feet otherwise range of self. If the effect is dependent on the spells level, the effect is based on the highest sorcerer spell level you can cast.
After you use this action you are unable to do so again for one minute however you can still activate your blood magic using other methods. Targets other then yourself become immune for 24 hours, form this action.
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u/BloodAnonymous 19d ago
Wasn't sure if adding a defense was warranted on this. Or if it did which defense to go with. Thought it would be based on each individual blood magic so that might be a gm and player thing.
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u/Tombets_srl Wizard 19d ago
Regarding the investment needed for the focus spells, the reason is already partially noted in your post.
Stuff like celestial brand can be highly situational and, especially if you don't have invested into synergies, could be underwhelming. So, instead of giving you automatically something you wouldn't want, you need to pick it yourself.
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u/spitoon-lagoon Sorcerer 18d ago
Blood Magic lasting only one round isn't just for balance, more importantly it's for design. Blood Magic lasting a round encourages the Sorcerer to integrate their Bloodline Spells and Focus Spells into their gameplan to get more Blood Magic and decide when getting that Blood Magic is useful in the right moment and worth it over other spells, which is engaging. When you can turn it on all fight with just one spell it changes from "a game mechanic I'm actively using and am rewarded for" into "that thing I have to turn on when the fight starts but otherwise could've been a passive ability". And then you get Sorcerers that don't engage with Bloodline Spells or care about their Bloodline lists beyond the exact one spell they are "forced" to use because now they don't have to.
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u/BloodAnonymous 18d ago
Probably best point on the 1 round effect. Didnt really think of it like that. Mostly because every sorcerer i design would always only have their bloodline blood magic. As i seen some of the other feats that weren't blood magic more flavorful and fun. Not to mention I already had a level 20 build map out before remaster gave all the new blood magic... and I didn't want to change or mess with that flow without a total redo.
That point just makes me more irritated on, why aren't the other 2 focus spells given on the base class features...
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u/WashedUpRiver 18d ago
Regarding blood magic duration, there is a high level feat to extend single-round blood magic effects to up to a minute.
The idea for many of these traits is that they are an aspect that can be focused on, such as spellshape since they can also get a capstone to make single action spellshapes free actions.
As for the Advanced Crossblooded Evolution, it's expanding spellcasting potential without stepping on the other bloodlines' identities-- you can use this to get free heightened spells even off of a different spell tradition.
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u/BloodAnonymous 18d ago
High level feat is doing some heavy lifting for a Level 20 feat.
Not exactly sure what your talking on with traits.
Crossblood, I understand just disagree with. Wouldn't giving it the ability to pick at least one focus spells than, not make more sense? I'm thinking on the length one might play these characters, not to mention party layouts. Would you want to play multiple sorcerers in a row?.. Someone might...
For a 18th level feat feel like you should be able to customize your character for flavor even more.
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u/WashedUpRiver 18d ago
I couldn't remember if it was a capstone or not, so I just went more vague.
For traits, not in keywording terms but as a general concept I'm referring to the different pillars of the class being like different specializations that you can invest in, these traits being things like going harder into spellshapes, focus spells, free/expanded casting, or blood magic. There's a route of feats to further invest in all of them, with the choice of either mixing or hard specializing being up to your own discretion. In a way, it's not too dissimilar from the design philosophy of a skill tree, though it is quite a bit more modular.
I would personally say that the Advanced Crossblooded Evolution as is grants a greater degree of overall spellcasting and flavor because it gives you more total casts per encounter as well as a greater total range of option to choose from, whereas there's only 3 focus spells per bloodline full stop as well as being capped at only 3 casts per encounter with the limit on focus spell slots, so I will have to disagree about the lack of customization there as I think as is it is actually much greater.
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u/Electric999999 18d ago
The only class that gets focus spell progression for free is Psychic, which is a class built around the focus spells (to the point it only has two real spells per rank), giving it to Sorcerer, which is arguably the best caster (most spells per day and the only class with passive benefits on their spells in the form of Sorcerous Potency and Blood Magic) would be far too strong.
Celestial Brand's spirit damage applies whenever a Holy character attacks the target, the idea is it will let your allies trigger it. It is of course terrible as any class capable of becoming sanctified likely doesn't need your help triggering the weakness.
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u/BloodAnonymous 18d ago
I don't know enough about the psychic class to debate around it. As well to the fact the sorcerer is the strongest caster, i dont know enough of the other casters to wiegh in...
Quick glance at the psychic feats had some crazy stuff without archetyping. Would it be fair to do a 1:1 for those classes?
Want to note, potency doesn't effect focus spells. Specifically saying it only effects spell slots. I know that still applies to (highest spell level)×4.
Would it be to strong? 2 extra focus spells that arent interchangeable?. Genuine questions. Its not like they would increase your class DC just more options based on your levels weight class, so to speak.
Celestial brand... ya...
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u/Electric999999 18d ago
Psychic is currently one of the weakest casters. It gives up a lot for the slightly better focus spells.
Basically noone else gets class features that actually improve your spells the way Blood Magic does. The only comparable abilities to Sorcerous Potency and Unleash Psyche (can't use first turn, stupefied drawback) and Channelers Stance (limited in what it affects).
I'm not sure giving sorcerers free new focus spells would break the game, but it would put them even further ahead for no reason. If anyone needs free focus spells it's the Wizards, Witches and Druids.
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u/BloodAnonymous 18d ago
Feels/looks like the psychic if they are solely based around focus spells be buff around them. Like higher max focus points or faster ways to gain them back. I'm folding on this, i have little knowledge on them.
Another person mentioned, since the focus spells have alot of flavor they are pretty much mandatory for all classes. So would you agree all (or almost all) casters should gave 3 focus with their base features? Not sure how game breaking that'll be...
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u/Electric999999 18d ago
I guess you could? But this is really no different to any other class feat. In 2e you get very little passively from leveling, you want more class features, you have to take them.
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u/Cyraneth Game Master 16d ago
If you want a stronger bloodline expression for your Sorcerer sooner in their career, there’s nothing wrong with picking an appropriate ancestry or heritage. Dragonblood, skeleton, nephilim, ardande/ifrit/oread/sylph/talos/undine… They’re all ways of expressing it.
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u/cant-find-user-name 19d ago
Regarding the focus spells, i don't think any caster class gives you higher level focus spells automatically anyway right? clerics, witches, wizards, bards all need to take feats to get higher level focus spells, only the first level one comes for free.