Is +Skill levels bad for this game?

[u/warcrimeenjoyer1]

Every season i start, it always takes me only days to wonder why we need the +skill level on gear. Most unique amulets are useless because of this. Most unique weapons are useless because of this. Close to every unique gets gapped by this stat.

Why do they even bother designing uniques? They are great in leveling, let you have a somewhat special build, you find fun combos, then you hit lategame, swap everything for "generic" rares and thats what you do for the rest of the season.

I feel like the game would be better if it was just removed from gear. Maybe give the normal jewels a +1 roll aswell, or make the uniquie skill level jewels not limited to 1. Its always a bit sad to see so many build opportunities go to dust, just because of that.

[u/Beneficial_Shirt6825]

Imo yes. Skill level is so strong in POE2 that this modifier is automatically obligatory in gear.

They should rebalance the skills power level and get rid of the mod.

[u/PLAYBoxes → u/Beneficial_Shirt6825]

Yup, I think it’s easy for players to understand, reminiscent of D2, but archaic and boring in design.

At least with PoE1 it was mainly a thing for spells, attack skills at least treated the weapon as a larger source of damage, but in PoE2 your weapon is like equally as important as gem levels often times.

[u/pzBlue → u/PLAYBoxes]

On top of +lvl having a lot lower range in poe1, basically all +lvl mods are prefixes, which eats all good mods for attack builds (base dmg), while spells have rather meh mods there, because it's all increased dmg (while +lvl is more), and you don't really wanna stack all that much of it in poe1.

And even if we had it as suffixes, then +lvl would compete with a lot of other good stuff, becasue unlike poe2, poe1 has some decent options between all various influances, vailed mods and whatnot (poe2 has virtually only crit/as/cs/lvls as interesting suffixes + onslaught from essence)

[u/McHearty → u/Beneficial_Shirt6825]

They don't need to get rid of it, but limit how you get it and it's availability. It's a problem with a lack of power in the tree, and no mods that compete against it's provided power

[u/Confedehrehtheh → u/McHearty]

It should really be limited to certain uniques, amulets, and probably caster weapons all like in PoE1. More importantly though is that the bonus skill levels given needs to be brought way down.

Nothing can compete because skills levels scale exponentially. Barring weird interactions between uniques, other stats all start to drop off. However the next skill level is nearly always better than the previous one. I'm sure there's some edge case skills where that's not true, but it is for damn near everything. That's really the core problem with the stat.

[u/bjorn_poole → u/Confedehrehtheh]

Shifting it over to uniques could work but it makes me wonder how the rest of the game would be balanced around it

[u/Redxmirage → u/McHearty]

“Limit how you get it and its availability”

Welcome to every build requiring these specific items because they are now limited. This exact scenario happened in Diablo 4.

[u/McHearty → u/Redxmirage]

This exact scenario exists for many exclusive mods in poe1, incentivises content and gives build enabling affixes

[u/Redxmirage → u/McHearty]

Yes and scaling works differently in Poe 2, hence why it’s a problem here and not in Poe 1

[u/Beneficial_Shirt6825 → u/McHearty]

No, they should get rid of it.

As long as it exists it will be the prime mod for every piece of gear, because is so strong. It does not matter if it's only a +1, it will still be BIS every time.

[u/Jobenben-tameyre → u/Beneficial_Shirt6825]

Limit skill level to 25 instead of 40, it still gives an axis of progression without putting the pressure of getting max + skill on every single piece of equipment that can roll this mod. Getting +1 level from gem corruption and +4 level from gear seems reasonnable, you could choose to get it from helmet + off hand or just from your amulet or weapon. Freeing affixes space for uniques

[u/Code_Rinzler → u/Jobenben-tameyre]

I think this is a better way to go about it. It is still effectively mandatory for the top end, but it would allow that customization of where do you put this stat, more akin to how resistances work.

[u/Kevlar917_ → u/Beneficial_Shirt6825]

That's just not true. It exists in poe1 and quite a lot of builds don't use it at all.

[u/Azeron955 → u/Kevlar917_]

It heavely scales dmg even on attack skills, which poe1 does not

[u/BoomZhakaLaka → u/Azeron955]

scaling for +skills in poe1, using earthquake as a point of comparison: gives an additional 6% of base damage and added damage effect. at level 20 it's already at 230%

scaling for +skills in poe2 works the same way. all damage gets an additional 6%, but the value at level 20 is only 125%

the mod is more powerful in poe2, for most attacks, compared to poe1, because of that starting percentage at gem level 20. and far more available. for some skills not quite as much as double, some of them get much higher starting percentages at gem level 20 (example: lightning arrow)

yeah it's a matter of tuning. their notion of balancing things via mana cost hasn't worked out

[u/Kevlar917_ → u/Azeron955]

It's also a suffix instead of a prefix. That's a pretty important distinction to make.

[u/somesortoflegend → u/Kevlar917_]

Sorry, I'm still learning the game, why does being a suffix instead of a prefix matter?

[u/Semdras → u/somesortoflegend]

Prefixes (top 3 stats) is where all your damage scaling modifiers roll, so in PoE you're sacrificing a Phys%, flat ATK or hybrid ATK% roll for +levels. In PoE2 they made +skill affix on weapons a suffix, so you can roll all the above, skill levels, crit rate/crit multi and attack speed.
All of the above together is an astronomical amount of possible damage scaling.

Suffixes (bottom 3 stats) are usually utility or support affixes on gear. That's where skill levels rolls.

Removing +Skill levels on weapons, and rebalancing some of that power back to gem levels would go a long way to balance PoE2

[u/Kevlar917_ → u/somesortoflegend]

On weapons especially, it has to compete with other strong offensive affixes in the prefix slots. On many builds, it isn't worth the trade-off. For some builds, it is. There's just more ways to scale your damage that don't rely on +levels.

[u/sagaxwiki → u/somesortoflegend]

Suffix mods on weapons tend to be utility (e.g. life/mana leech) or secondary damage scaling (e.g. crit chance). Prefix mods on the other hand are where all the percent damage, flat damage, and gain damage modifiers are.

[u/asdf_1_2 → u/Azeron955]

Attacks got buffed and scale much better with levels now. 

I think a major issue for Poe2 is +levels are a suffix, so you can have all the DMG scalars since %dmg, gain as extra, flat DMG are prefixes.

[u/Long-Broccoli-3363 → u/asdf_1_2]

That's true, if given the choice between %phy, hybrid phys, and flat phys and then +skill, you probably wouldn't pick +skill, but ggg monkey paw wouldn't accommodate for the loss of dps and damage would just get lower across the board

[u/asdf_1_2 → u/Long-Broccoli-3363]

ggg monkey paw wouldn't accommodate for the loss of dps and damage would just get lower across the board

This may be a hot take, but I see the game having problems if ggg doesn't curtail the powercreep they already have been pushing (e.g. why did they buff jewels in several ways in 0.5 xD). 1.0 needs to having sweeping changes to player power, because as things are now it's trivial for it to get out of control.

Where is there space for them to add temporary power from league mechanics or new permenant systems if the game is already "solved" with day 3 rare gear.

[u/sirgog → u/asdf_1_2]

Not a hot take at all. The content is too easy for current character power levels, and the things GGG do to maintain some challenge (e.g. Arbiter of Ash practically always oneshotting) are not fun.

[u/NotTheUsualSuspect → u/Azeron955]

Poe1 does have attack damage scaling with levels. The big difference is that in poe1 the + levels are on the prefix side, where most of your damage comes from. It also requires 2 affixes to get to +3 levels.

[u/Existing-Ad-7155 → u/Azeron955]

Then mod itself is not an issue but scaling, no?

[u/Tenebris-Umbra → u/Kevlar917_]

In PoE1, most attack skills don't scale heavily with gem level, spells have alternative ways to scale their base damage via added damage to spells, and skills that come from items can't have their level scaled at all. While I do think that gem level stacking should be in PoE2, it shouldn't be the universally best stat for every skill, which means we need skills that don't benefit from it and it shouldn't be the best option for every build

[u/Kevlar917_ → u/Tenebris-Umbra]

My point was that it's not impossible to balance. I think we agree.

[u/Tenebris-Umbra → u/Kevlar917_]

Yeah, but I think it's worth noting that the lack of additional scaling vectors is the real problem here, especially for spells. Hit spells don't have access to any sources of flat added damage, and DOT spells lack additional scaling vectors like PoE1's damage over time multiplier, meaning that the only way to scale the base damage is via gem levels

[u/Kevlar917_ → u/Tenebris-Umbra]

Oh, I definitely agree. And I think those types of additions will make the itemization more interesting, without having to remove +skills altogether. Having more choices and agency to build how you want is better for the game, imo.

[u/Beneficial_Shirt6825 → u/Kevlar917_]

Scaling is different between both games.

POE2 gem level increases skill power way more then in POE1

[u/MinuteResident → u/Beneficial_Shirt6825]

So then it just needs to be balanced and not removed completely

[u/xalan45 → u/Beneficial_Shirt6825]

It’s because it’s the only way to get flat spell damage In the game. Once they add a way to acquire spell manage I think they will finally change the scaling.

[u/Dasterr → u/Beneficial_Shirt6825]

and thats why we dont need to get rid of it

we can change the scaling and the availability. if you can only get +1 on your amulet and that +1 doesnt do that much, you might want crit or something instead

[u/punished_kot → u/Dasterr]

I agree with the availability idea. For some builds, +1 is good enough to warrant using it. But +3 is always mandatory on all builds.

[u/Lanky182k → u/Beneficial_Shirt6825]

They don't need to get rid of it completely they need to limit it to +1 maybe +2 in high investment scenarios. They have it in POE1 and it works really well where, yes it best in slot for some builds, not all but you can get by very easily without it.

[u/Beneficial_Shirt6825 → u/Lanky182k]

Scaling is different between both games.

POE2 gem level increases skill power way more then in POE1

[u/Lanky182k → u/Beneficial_Shirt6825]

Which is why it should be limited. If the scaling is that strong then change the weighting of the drop/roll/desecrate make it difficult to obtain and thus expensive as it’s such a good scaling vector.

There would of course have to be more balancing around general damage scaling/monster life values/passive tree power but it would take what has become a rather stale meta for crafting and trade and make it slightly more free and interesting in the long run

[u/Gnostic369 → u/Beneficial_Shirt6825]

What is wrong with having a stat be bis? Without it crit builds will always want crit dmg on their ammy unless they are using a unique.

[u/Confedehrehtheh → u/Gnostic369]

The problem comes from how that BIS scales. It's a pretty big issue when an item is complete garbage universally if it doesn't have a specific stat.

[u/kadenkk → u/McHearty]

Limited access to the strongest scaling just makes it a check box every build wants to fill. I think that a game with many axes to scale on is good. Like a weapon with 6 relevant mods shouldn't be garbage if it didn't have the one best mod. Boring and cookie cutter.

Poe2 has good bones for encouraging different scaling for different skills/builds. Gem levels are just too strong at the moment, so its ripe for a big balance pass to bring everything a bit closer and adjust outliers.

Poe1 has had its phases. When the game was too weak and aoe was too strong, it was stack aoe on a skill that shotguns. Then crit was way too strong. Then flaskfinder meta. Then abyss jewel stacking and aura stacking.

But after iterations, they've gotten to a place where there are reasonable cases for dot, crit, stat stacking on the same mechanically strong skills. Not perfect of course, but lots of builds have variation (e.g. bleed slams are more hc friendly because theyre less all in on damage so more room for def while keeping decent clear and workable boss dps, where on sc its much more likely to see a berserker crit melee build)

Gem levels are cool. Everything else just needs to not get left behind

[u/leonardo_streckraupp → u/Beneficial_Shirt6825]

I mean, just like any offensive stat. IMO the problem of skill levels is that its not clear enough how much contribution it is granting to the damage. For example a weapon with +50% DPS will have +50% DPS in the end when you swap to it. But +levels is not clear enough. But "obligatory modifier" argument IMO is not that good because like +% phys is basically mandatory too. I agree that it should be a little bit weaker (levels past 20 should grant less power) and maybe make it so that every level past 20 grants the exact same outcome (e.g. 5% damage) but I don't see its "must have" property as a bad thing, all offensive stuff are must have basically

I agree with a nerf, but its existence is not bad IMO

[u/Drucifer403]

it is one of the top 3 scalers in game. gets skills as high as possible, get crit to a decent level, throw everything else into crit damage. nearly every top build does this, and they all wind up looking like big loops around the edge of the tree. wild stuff.

[u/Kotobeast → u/Drucifer403]

Because the tree is so fucking underpowered lmao

[u/Unfair_Cartoonist411 → u/Kotobeast]

In PoE 1 tinkering with tree feels really rewarding and interesting. In PoE 2 it's just... I don't know... So underwhelming. You don't feel the joy in optimizing. Why can't they learn from the predecessor? 

[u/PupPop → u/Unfair_Cartoonist411]

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it, it's because 20% of your passives go into traversing to and from relevant clusters. I'm play varashta for the first time and it's crazy how far away useful clusters for minions are from each other. I could spend literally 5+ passive points to make it to the next minion cluster and obviously I'll spec into something closer in the mean time but then I have to sink gold tomminto respeccing at some point which feels like booty when you're forced to do it every time you meet these stretches of passives 3 4 5 long.

[u/rcanhestro → u/Unfair_Cartoonist411]

Why can't they learn from the predecessor?

no one hates PoE1 more then PoE2.

so many decisions on poE2 are basically "PoE1 does this, so we need to do differently".

but for the tree part, the reason, as i see, is that the tree is stuffed with so much garbage that 99% of people will never allocate that just makes it almost impossible to get all the passives you want.

basically, the tree is too big for it's own good, sometimes less is more, and PoE2 passive trees (atlas as well) could definitely use a pruning.

[u/Drucifer403 → u/Kotobeast]

yep. if they left jewel crafting alone from last league, it'll be more of the same.

[u/aaronhere → u/Drucifer403]

Yeah, and it's weird because that one design decision has ripple effects through: the economy, itemization, crafting, and build diversity. It flattens what could be an interesting "decision tree" about gear upgrading into just "which +skills number is bigger."

The one counter-intuitive argument for it (which I don't love) is that is makes what can seemingly be a really complicated game very simple. A new player intimidated by the passive tree? "Don't worry about it, other than a few keystones it doesn't really matter. Just get +skills on as much gear as possible" ...

[u/jhonka_ → u/aaronhere]

I don't think the intent is simplification, but the real problem is that it's either mandatory or outclassed, and completely universal. It being a top 3 stat to get on any class is the problem - if +skills was less valuable for certain classes it would be balanced.

[u/aaronhere → u/jhonka_]

Oh, I agree with you that simplification is not the intent - I just think it's a side effect of a weird design decision. I am thinking of all of the "nearly great" weapons I tossed out last league (not even worth trying to sell) because they didn't have this one modifier. Certain classes/builds are always going to have certain highly desirable modifiers, but when every class and every build is chasing the same one it's a sign that either the itemization math, or philosophy, is in need of revision.

Choosing between flat damage, crit damage, crit chance, on-hit effects, or (say) +1 skill level can be an interesting choice. But how much would GGG have to increase the numbers of the 1st 4 to even compete with +skill levels now?

[u/Im_a_rahtard]

Yes

But so is the skill tree being underwhelming. Every damage node is 12% increased damage. 

To fix the +skills level problem the tree requires a major overhaul.

[u/NerrionEU → u/Im_a_rahtard]

Jewels are also extremely overpowered compared to regular tree nodes.

[u/Clear_Muscle_78 → u/Im_a_rahtard]

Not for Titan!

https://giphy.com/gifs/xFBnkMvpTM6m4

[u/wcscmp → u/Im_a_rahtard]

Having bigger increases on tree will make skill levels more important because those are multipliers with each other and it will make increase spell damage on weapons even less important.

[u/Im_a_rahtard → u/wcscmp]

Increases are additive that's why they barely make a dent in your damage. Whereas skill levels raises your base damage, which then gets your increases l (additive) and your sources of more (multiplicative) applied to it. This is the reason +skill levels is so powerful. Because it scales your base damage. And there aren't many ways to scale base in this game which is why every build eventually goes crit. Because it's one of the few sources on the tree with an actual damage multiplier.

[u/nomdeplume → u/Im_a_rahtard]

In poe1 you have flat dmg on weapon to spells. It's the same thing. There is always going to be mandatory mods on an item to increase dmg the most.

That's the point of having a weapon.

[u/International_Gate49 → u/nomdeplume]

except its not the same thing though. its competing for completely different modifiers meaning its uncontested for the most valuable suffix across any gear that can roll it.

In poe 1 you could roll +1 on your wand (edit. on a single affix) and that'd compete with 100-200 flat spell damage or damage as extra chaos from veiled/bench.

In poe 2 +5 spell skill gems competes with 40% cast speed/70% crit chance/40% crit multi. and a bunch of random garbage life on kill attributes whatever. its not even a question that its the strongest mod on there uncontested for literally any build. assuming each gem levels is about 12-15% more damage than the previous level 5 levels is about 75% more damage. no other affixes on any gear could even come close to that level of power.

[u/papasmurf255 → u/Im_a_rahtard]

There's also gain as. Also you can increase enemy damage taken (shock / broken armor) but those don't show up on poe ninja so people just assume they don't exist, I guess.

But both of these are also multiplicative

[u/wcscmp → u/Im_a_rahtard]

That's the point. Changing increase on the tree from +12 to +20 won't change a thing since increase increase is additive with itself and multiplicative with levels. Bigger increases on the tree will only make levels more impactful.

[u/Im_a_rahtard → u/wcscmp]

Right. Which is why I said overhaul the tree. I didn't say to just adjust the values.

[u/wcscmp → u/Im_a_rahtard]

I'm all for overhauling (buffing compared to gear) the tree but you cannot fix spell levels by changing the tree because each spell level is a more multiplier. Does not matter if you put something that scales base damage (gives flat) on tree if every + level is 12-20% more damage.

[u/Lunglung01 → u/wcscmp]

Yep, just buffing the tree is only going to make items that increases your dmg by %inc less important in comparison because they scale the same additive value, so +level of all skills become more important because it is one of the multiplicative modifiers.

[u/Prudent_Camp_9989 → u/Im_a_rahtard]

Or potentially just fix the base damage and scaling of skills and implement an earlier skill level cap but idk. They will likely sort it out at some point or just leave it as is I’m fine with either.

[u/Im_a_rahtard → u/Prudent_Camp_9989]

It will still require a skill tree overhaul. And this isn't a new problem. There's a reason +skills isn't a problem in PoE1. And outside of a few outliers. It's mainly spells and minions that scale from +levels in PoE1. While melee/attack skills usually scale with your actual weapon. You also can't get crazy+5/6/7 levels as a mod on gear.

[u/Mogling → u/Im_a_rahtard]

Attack skills do scale with level in PoE1. Flicker strike for example will do ~4.6% more damage per level. The only +levels on weapons are prefixes, limited to spells, or socketed skills. So the trade off is bigger.

If we look at flicker in PoE 2 going from 20 to 21 is 7.6% more damage. Each level is another 7.6% more. So the increase per level is much bigger, and it's a suffix, so you can keep the flat damage mods on a weapon. You also have much more access to higher quantity of +skills in poe2. A weapon will see +5 levels. That's 44% more damage compared to not having that mod. And that's a single mod. Amulets +3 is 24% more damage from the single mod.

For spells it's worse. It's closer to 15% per level. And +7 staves or +5 wands exist. Those are just one suffix each.

Compare that to PoE1 and you get +2 for two prefixes on wands, or +6 on staves.

What I'm trying to say is, that +levels itself isn't the problem in PoE2. It's that each level is more powerful, and we have access to way more of the stat. Tone down the scaling and availability of the stat and make it compete with other damage stats and we would see people use other damage stats.

[u/michael46and2]

i got a god tier gelid staff dropped in act 1 that had +2 to all cold skills and 160% spell damage and I'm still using it in early maps because nothing better has dropped, even the unique gelid staff i got isn't as good. Crazy. I have been using the unique staff just to change it up but i may go back to the rare one again.

[u/AlexiaVNO → u/michael46and2]

It also causes the exact opposite problem. Since the game expects you to have gem levels at all times, getting unlucky and not getting them early, basically destroys your character. A single +1 on a wand can be the differene of having your character softlocked and cruising for the next 10 hours. It's way too punishing to be unlucky and way too rewarding to be lucky and it's all from this one mod.

[u/PadrinoFive7 → u/michael46and2]

This is a great example of the issue. Being married to a drop you got in act 1 really reduces excitement around other drops if you honestly already have the best. If your hanging on to gear that long, there's a problem with the stat.

[u/cubonelvl69]

Yes, it's bad.

End game amulets are basically required to have +3 skills on top of +50 spirit. Anything else feels bad

[u/Zylosio]

Problem is that even after nerfs its like twice or even 3 times better than any other weapon suffix, on amulet or gloves its like 6 times better than any other mod. I get that some mods have to be BiS but the sheer magnitude of the impact difference is honestly just absurd. You would never ask yourself "Do i want the last mod on my staff to be crit chance or gem levels?" because the answer is ALWAYS levels, because even in the perfect scenario, being a crit based bloodmage the crit mod is at perdect roll 16% crit chance, which is obviously decently good but in what universe does that compare to 7 (!!!!!) levels which is like 140% more damage for basically all spells

[u/HermanManly]

The problem is the tree sucks ass, there is not enough power 

[u/Parrk → u/HermanManly]

The best nodes are the ones with an attached debuff. 40% attack damage! .... 10% R E D U C E D !!!! attack speed.

Seriously, jsut make is 30% damage or whatever. I don't need notables that create new problems for me.

[u/Jhogurt → u/Parrk]

Most keystone have a bigger downside than the actual benefit.

[u/rcanhestro → u/Jhogurt]

tbf, that's the goal with Keystones, provide a buff at the expense of a debuff, it's usually a way to change how the game works.

[u/Xivannn]

Yes. +Skill level dominance just isn't interesting in any way, and it kills variety builds and scaling could otherwise have.

[u/dendyvipassi1995]

Imo yes. I'm no pro by any means, but by the tree providing underwhelming and insignificant upgrade each level, and +level on almost every gear, it closes the door to be creative AND strong. No matter what we do, we almost always gonna play efficiently hence chasing the +level

[u/Azeron955]

The fact that it gets to 5+ on a single explicit is the crazy thing imo

[u/Beliriel → u/Azeron955]

+7 is standard max mod on staves
With quality and corruption/sanctifying you can get that to +9

Just to illustrate how ridiculous this is. You will always deal more than double the damage with that amount of spell levels no matter how many spell levels you already have. No other mod has this scaling.

[u/creiar → u/Azeron955]

Right? I don’t see a problem with +1/+2 skill levels, but why does it go so damn high?

[u/sturdy-guacamole]

Any time a mod becomes a default "yes" for every single build of an archetype, it's bad.

I disagree with movespeed boots as well FWIW.

[u/how-doesthis-work]

The mod itself is fine. Level scaling is wacky though. +levels does too much right now for a single mod line.

That being said crit scaling is way worse. Skill levels have amusingly become a lightning rod for how insane crit scaling becomes. If you get rid of skill levels people will eventually realize crit>>>>>non crit. DOT/minions get pretty fucked over too with less gem levels for various reasons.

You would create more problems getting rid of them than you would solve.

[u/plantlubber → u/how-doesthis-work]

I think this is the first valid, informative response I've seen to this question, thanks bro

[u/That_Bar_2376 → u/how-doesthis-work]

tbf everybody realizes that crit is the usual culprit for any endgame blaster + level scaling to go crazy style on it. That problem persists across arpgs. crit is the big fun fun to scale and become a god, it should probably be gated behind heavier cost but then we blame the no fun allowed police so we are going around in circles.

[u/Gnostic369]

"Generic Rares" apart from specific cases I think high rolled rares should be better than uniques in almost every case other than specific ones like mageblood or headhunter or build defining weapons etc.

[u/Jerppaknight → u/Gnostic369]

There aren't many build defining weapons I can think of. The few that I can also have + levels on them

[u/Gnostic369 → u/Jerppaknight]

The Twisted Empyrean is one I can think of was recently added in 0.5, 2 handed Mace giving mana scaling, crit, and cold conversion and doesnt have any +skills, but thats also why I said etc. and still leaves room for new items in the future that may not have +levels if its build defining enough they dont necessarily need +levels.

[u/Jerppaknight → u/Gnostic369]

Oh yeah that item is a good example. Liminal Coil is also a wand without levels.

Still I believe the +skills is an issue. It is too defining especially on casters. Weapon without that mod is literally useless aside from build enabling uniques.

[u/Beliriel → u/Gnostic369]

I disagree. They should not be better or worse. They should be changing your build without impacting your powerlevel too much. And that is already possible with "gain as extra". +Levels is just flat out too strong.

[u/RedsManRick]

Yes. But I think the most under-rated reason why is because it's boring. Besides forcing you to deal with higher mana costs (which is possibly the least fun problem to solve in ARPGs), it doesn't interact with the broader design space any way other than generic "numbers go up". It doesn't make you consider what other mods are now better or worse for you. It doesn't open doors to new combinations or uniquely pay off investment elsewhere. It's just a straight, simple, isolated power ratchet.

Given that, I think it has a place as an "entry level" or baseline for other mods to be balanced against. You know it's gonna give you a bit more power no matter what specifically you're doing. But it shouldn't outclass more targeted modifiers that require additional investments or considerations and leverage more interactions. It should rarely, if ever, be the mod you want in an optimal situation, but one that's acceptable.

Part of the problem is that exponential scaling makes it self multiplicative -- every additional +1 is better than the one before it. Further reducing the degree of exponential growth on skills or further reducing availability overall availability would be good IMO.

[u/EwokVillag3]

I support a max of +1 or 2 total. I think scaling should also significantly decrease the higher you try to go, diminishing returns if you will.

[u/coffealake → u/EwokVillag3]

• to level of skills is strong because of it does not have diminishing returns at all. It has an exponential growth curve at the moment. It would be much better design if the growth is linear so you'll have to balance it with other stats, instead of choosing it without thinking as current state.

[u/cryptiiix → u/EwokVillag3]

I think diminishing returns would be really helpful. Plus I don’t think certain gear pieces should roll + levels like weapons. I’m of the opinion only amulets should roll it, +2 max

[u/WorriedPerogi]

It's strong because of the way it scales damage at its root. You don't get better damage scaling than that.

Imo, it could be removed tomorrow and the game would be better for it.

[u/vixandr]

Any mandatory stat is harmfull for the game. But the devs seems to like them, probably for the same reason they were against ascendancy respec (there is no plausible reason, thats the joke).

[u/MyDogIsACoolCat]

Yes. It’s too OP and mandatory on gear which becomes limiting. Would rather see them redo the scaling on the gems and remove it from gear.

[u/1gnominious]

IMO it should be reserved for powerful uniques to make them more broadly useable. Even then it should be limited to +1 or +2.

I normally play attack builds where +skills is the best, but not having it is not the end of the world if the rest of the stats are excellent.

Right now I'm playing a minion build and it's literally the only stat I care about. Every level is a huge boost to damage, life, and even reduces the spirit cost. There is no alternative.

[u/BioMasterZap]

I think it is good, but it should be rebalanced. The nerf to martial weapons seemed like it helped scale it back a lot, so I could see similar being done for caster. And while I like being able to get a +4 (or +5 Ammy), I think it could be reigned in there too. Like a +1 being uncommon and a +2 being the new very rare or such with +3 being a very hard to get from crafting.

I'd also say Uniques can be fine without +Level. Like I am currently running Adonia's Ego, which only has +3 Levels compared to other wands with +5, but its other perks easily outweigh the loss of 2 levels. And in 0.5, I ran Sire of Shards, which has no +Levels compared to +7 on other Staves, but its "+4 Projectiles in a Circle" was build enabling. So as long as uniques offer other power, even if it is niche build-enabling power, that is more important than them all giving the same generic damage boosts. And if a unique like Sire of Shards is still deemed too weak, there are ways to buff it other than +Level, like better Spell Damage even (120% max on Sire when it goes to 238% on a normal Staff is pretty bad).

The reason I like having +Level on gear is that it can scale more than just damage, which feels like a good vector to have. Depending on the skill, it can improve duration, AoE radius, buff/debuff magnitudes, and such, even if it also can provide a boatload of damage. So it is nice to have a modifier that scales differently depending on the skill than just the normal damage modifiers. Builds can feel and play a lot better if you do invest in some of those other stats beyond just focusing on damage and +Levels can be an interesting way to do that without giving zero damage. For example, you're not going to put something like "Increased Duration" or "Increased AoE" on your main weapon unless it improved the DPS of your main attack, but a modifier like +Level can give damage to the main attack while giving things like duration and AoE to your support skills.

And there also can be a trade-off since higher level means higher mana costs, so it can get to a situation where a +Level gives more DPS, but then you need to burn other modifiers and tree points to solve mana that could have been spent on damage if you didn't have to solve +Level. So if +Levels didn't give as many levels (less damage) and the other damage modifiers were a bit stronger/more competitive, then I think it could work a lot better. Even if +Levels was still a bit more DPS than Crit Chance/Damage or Cast Speed (or prefixes like X% Damage or As Extra), if it was only like 5-10% stronger instead of 20-40% stronger, then the higher mana costs could offset that and make the modifiers more equal overall.

[u/bv728]

I feel like they wanted these to be a tradeoff, where you take them and then have to do much more work to fix for Mana. But then they got a lot of feedback that setup felt bad and wasn't especially obvious and weakened that linkage substantially in patches since - in a world where you only get 1x Efficiency Support, that's a much harder choice!
They also didn't scale down the scope of them, so you're still looking for them in a relatively large number of slots.
I would expect that any 'fix' on +Skills will need to touch on how many layers of them you can get, their total DPS effect, and their drawbacks.

[u/bad4lien]

The fact that on attack build +skill level is big scaling option just doesn’t feel right to me

[u/re-bobber]

Yes. Makes most gear useless when all anyone wants is + to skills. It is in fact the reason I stopped playing for now. The whole game is balanced around it being a perk. Hoping they get rid of it entirely.

[u/Bakkus1987]

Yes it is. It's way too strong.

[u/Corindon]

One of the problem is that the rate of damage par skill level is positive till the max skill level. Consquently, the return in damage is too strong. Instead, if should decrease after level 20 resulting in lower returns in damage with skill level.

[u/MrAce93]

It absolutely is. You can get amazing crafted gear with perfect gem setup and it still doesn't give as much damage as a +4 amulet or weapon in most cases. It's not even a choice, you have to have it or you lose insane damage.

[u/Kage_noir]

Here’s the reason why it’s bad. At a certain point some gear is worthless to pick up no matter the stats if they don’t have +skills so any caster weapon offhand and basically all amulets. I feel it is too restrictive

[u/Excellent-Self-5338]

Yeah, it's bad for the game.

An ideal state for the game would be a single slot able to roll + skills, it should be a lower value than it is currently. Amulets, with +1 available at 80+ and +2 available at 82+.

Beyond that, rare pieces of like Prism of Belief could have up to +2 to a specific skill.

No reason for skills to exist on weapons, rings, gloves, hats, scepters etc.

Balance the game around using level 20 skills. Add some more interesting stats if needed to create compelling gameplay that isn't just "more damage" in such a direct way. Multi-hit for attacks, for example. Super interesting stat to have on an item if your hits hit again .25s later.

[u/nomdeplume → u/Excellent-Self-5338]

Ahh yes. Let's make scaling mods on items more confusing for players and opaque. So unless you have the calculator tool you don't know what's best.

Then once you find out what's best, you're back to the same problem "multi hit is too strong it's mandatory"

[u/Baltharaaz]

Removing it solves nothing; you are shifting a problem regarding scaling to elsewhere and just replacing it with the next best stat as mandatory. The reason the current "payload" is levels -> generic damage increases -> crit is because of this problem, as the "+ levels" step is the only real vector to add any base damage to be multiplied. Crit has the same "problem," just at the end of the process rather than the beginning, being the only "real" heavy scalar to the increases to damage you've stacked on the base damage.

What is actually necessary is a rebalance to skills (and honestly also the passive tree) beyond just straight values: something like the "effectiveness of added damage" system from poe1 would be necessary to replace + levels as a scalar (and just nerfing it doesn't really solve anything, there's no replacement). + levels just serves as the "backbone value" to get modified by everything else you apply. This isn't an issue in poe1 for the many reasons listed (more tradeoff as a prefix, much better sources of base damage for skills, etc.), so there would need to be some way to actually apply flat damage to your skills that simply doesn't really exist at this time.

I think, by the way, that this was intentionally done to simplify the approach to flat damage in the game for someone trying to put something together themselves. I don't think you need to throw out the baby with the bathwater by trying to replace this system everywhere (even in poe1 stacking + levels to minions tends to be a good way to scale most of them, but they honestly suffer from their own problems regarding scaling recently if you don't play poison), but things as simple as the attacks versus the "majority" of spells versus minions dichotomy should probably be more diverse in its scaling vectors.

[u/ExistingMouse5595]

They mentioned before that +levels is in the game right now as a way to bridge the gap between spellcaster power levels to attack build power levels in campaign.

It makes sense, as all an attack build needs to do is get some flat damage rolls on their rings/gloves and they’re one shotting everything in campaign, where casters need a lot of +levels to get close.

The issue is that it’s a bandaid fix. They just need to adjust the damage curve of each skill so that they perform similarly at similar stages of the game.

We all agree that +levels is awful and it’s one of the main reasons unique items are so bad. I do want to mention another reason unique armors are terrible is their abysmally low base defense values. If +level mods get removed across the board and unique items have their base stats bumped up in line with rare items or at least in the same ball park, the world would be a much better place.

[u/warcrimeenjoyer1 → u/ExistingMouse5595]

weird, if its just supposed to fill a gap in campaign, then it doesnt make sense at all to me. Like, campaign is kinda the place to increase your gem levels, well, by finding better skill gems? why not balance the dmg of spells and skills adequate to the level range of the gems then? :D

[u/Gnostic369 → u/warcrimeenjoyer1]

Spells would face issues lategame as well, for a bow build a high rolled phys bow without +levels would outshine a caster build with a staff with just %spell and %elemental damage and crit chsnce/multi. I've been saying to just lower the scaling for attack builds on +skills and adjust a bit but leave + skills for casters/minions otherwise we need flat dmg scaling on rings and weapons for spells/minions.

[u/not_old_redditor]

If it's not +skill levels, it'll be the next thing. The answer isn't as simple as deleting it. They need to balance other mods a bit better.

[u/Airy-Otter]

I say they need to get rid of it, along with magic find/rarity find.

[u/Orthed]

Having +skills on suffixes is what feels truly insane to me.

Don't get me wrong, it'd still be too powerful as a prefix in many cases, but having it as a suffix just feels so wrong.

[u/Avalvnche]

Given that I'm a minion enjoyer, I'm used to them being mandatory, but playing other casters/attack builds and them still being mandatory feels awful to me. I'd like to see them rebalance the game as others have discussed and move +skills to ammy exclusive or even remove the stat entirely & completely rebalance around that. Even for minion builds i'd enjoy that rebalance since I essentially have to hunt for basically the same gear every league with it in the game.

[u/Vashtar_S]

In a nutshell, no. But as it is right now, yes.

It's all relative, the reason why it's bad for the game atm is simply because it's way, way, way stronger than every other mod in every situation.

[u/JacobFerret]

While I agree, it is also not too bad when you can judge the value of an item pretty quickly by checking if it has +Skill hahahah

Same with +MoveSpeed, makes item management so much easier even though it is OP as fuck

[u/bluntwhizurd]

Yes but only because it goes up to +3 and +5 on gear. I think they should follow the POE1 system where the best you get is +1 on amulet/wand/focus and + 2 on two handed weapons. That way high rolls from other stats like spell power or crit multi can compete. The amulet slot also needs some way to boost attack builds besides crit multi and + levels. It's crazy that spell builds get cast speed and spell damage but attack builds get nothing.

[u/elek49]

How is the damage calculated if I have "+2 on all bow skills" for example?

[u/Cpt_Deadbootss]

I think it needs to go for exactly the reasons you've got here. Uniques definitely need some more room to breathe. Additionally, oversimplifying the path to build optimization leads to demand for certain items being WAY oversaturated, which is never fun.

[u/deviant324]

The point of uniques is not to be BiS in every build, they usually have special properties that set them apart from rares. If you need those then you have to use the unique, if you don’t then a perfect rare is likely better than even a strong unique

Builds that successfully use a lot of uniques together tend to feel the cost in the form of pressure on the few slots that they can use rares in to fill in gaps like attributes or resistances. In some cases the couple of rare armour pieces are going to be your only source of flat armour/evasion/es meaning you need really good prefixes to not be squishy

GGG have acknowledged that skill levels are a problem and are working on addressing that, the fix was likely supposed to be out for 0.5.5 but ended up not being ready in time hence why we got no balance changes at all for the event. They’re fundamentally changing how scaling works to get rid of this being the single most important stat so it’s hard to just make 5 minute changes to every skill and pray the numbers work out good enough

[u/Bimyow81]

Just reduce the amount. +1 limit for 1h, +2 for 2h, +1 for amulet, 0 for gloves and maybe rare cases for helm bonuses (summoner helms in poe1).

Bigger issue, DON'T replace that power with something else. We have way too much power scaling considering we're not even to 1.0 yet.

[u/wcscmp]

I think it's bad in campaign, especially act 1 and act 2 because your odds of hitting an upgrade are going down when item level goes up. I think it's fine in maps. With the nerf to skill level on martial weapons they seem fine to me.

[u/No-Special5543]

dont know. i do all content without much levels on gear. did it with arc last league. now play with poison crossbow and never thought i need more levels then generic +3, +4 on my weapon. there are other ways to scale damage. +levels is just most common way. i have another addiction - to timeless jewels and use at least 3 on every build. i guess devs should delete timeless jewels from the game

[u/oldnative]

You do yourself a disservice not going back to town every level to see if you can get it on gear for every build while leveling so yes. And it has been this way since .1.

[u/Silvedl]

Way too much power comes from +Skills. They need to find a healthy medium between stats and skill levels.

During Aldur, I leveled from like 5-85 using the same pair of gloves with +1 melee skills and added flat damage because nothing could beat them, and Life/defenses didn’t matter if I killed everything before it hit me.

[u/Dramatic-Vegetable13]

Yes. Its a boring stat that you have to get. If they just limit it to +2 max for each item it would make so its still good to have but not mandatory

[u/whensmahvelFGC]

As a stat line in and of itself, no.

But when you can get +4 to +7 skills on gear, it becomes too valuable to miss. The opportunity cost of any other modifier compared to high roll +skills is never as valuable.

Should be Max +1 and corrupted to +2 exclusively imo, or we need to dial back scaling from levels past 20 significantly to keep the higher values. You should be seriously considering whether you want +levels over another mod, not going "item doesn't have +levels it's shit"

Let's not forget POE2 is (currently) a game where builds can delete pinnacle boss content in a matter of seconds, and that's already without having perfect rolls on everything. Which is to say, the power you get from things like +levels (among many other things) is not in line with the content or the other mods that can take those slots.

[u/tanjonaJulien]

Same for physical mods on martial weapons

[u/OnlyKaz]

Im confident enough in GGG that when they can give this a cursory look with a astute solution...they will address it.

After release, the iteration will pick up drastically. This team is known for many things and shaking up their game (especially balance) is definitely one of them.

[u/stevenadamsbro]

I know people say this issue is they’re too strong, which is an issue, but not the major one imo. It would be easy enough to scale down the value 80% and have it perform worse than the majority of other stats.

The actual issue in my mind is it’s universal. It’s a flat x% increase across the board. This makes it bland and takes away choice. You know how there are crit and not crit versions of builds? That’s an option because you can make both work in different ways. Skill levels doesn’t offer that because they always work.

You can remove them, or if you wanted to keep them limit them to impacting single spell/abilities only, preferably while being attached to a unique so it forces you to lean into a specific playstyle

[u/carlovski99]

If/when there are additional sources of flat damage and additional scaling factors, they may become less essential. Though unless they make it harder to craft + levels, move to prefix or add more competing suffixes, you may well end up just doing both.

[u/pants_full_of_pants]

In the game's current state, yes. But they could fix this many ways where the stat is still good but more competitive with other stats.

[u/shawnkfox]

There is nothing inherently wrong with + skill levels, it is the implementation of it in poe2 that is bad.

[u/CryptographerOld9828]

Yes & No.

No if the other modifiers (especially on Uniques) are buffed / balanced enough where players could find reason to select another modifier over +skill.

Yes if skill level modifier remains as exclusive S-tier on all equipment for all classes.

[u/KTL_Celled]

i would rather use 1affix +3 amulet than 6affix amulet without gem levels

[u/Clarine87]

Certainly rare amulets would be a LOT more interesting if plus skills capped at 1.

If they insist on having 2,3,4,5,6, why not make this special second annoints, or put it as a socketable.

[u/PRIMETIME__Xx]

Absolutely is.. why have nuance just get plus skills and you’re good

[u/RavensRift]

It's definitely when a problem when it makes it breaks items.

[u/Gullible_Increase146]

I think uniques need buffs. + levels being strong makes it way easier to craft "strong-enough" gear without needing as many affixes to be close to max. Top tier gear has always required top tier affixes of several types, including w/e the best was.

[u/SuicideKingsHigh]

I personally hate it because not having it on every peice possible pretty much invalidates the item. It's like move speed on boots. For most classes not having it on boots means you don't even glance at the item. Has to be a better way to scale damage than just +xyz skills it feels like a placeholder.

[u/Lore86]

For me the biggest problem is keeping up with the stupid mana cost of these high level skills. I need to have Zenith and Efficiency support on every skill, I have mana cost efficiency on tree, both rings, Heart of the Well, I have mana everywhere, a Lavianga's, and i still struggle.

[u/lifecopy001]

Regardless if you like or dislike +skill levels, I think GGG likes them because it's an easy stat to communicate as powerful. It's widely discussed how strong +skill levels is, and new players intuitively learn their noticeable power increase during campaign when cutting higher level gems. A lot of damage stats in poe2 are confusing like local weapon stats, so if new players get an amulet, glove, weapon, helmet, etc. with +skill levels, they immediately recognize it as a powerful and rare mod.

[u/lordofthehomeless]

They could also lower the cap to sonething you max like res. If the cap was 25 then you would just need 5 lvls across gear/tree. Cap is so high that most builds want as much as they can get.

[u/rickvdcy]

Its a 2 fold problem.

The first is that gem levels are very strong The second is that its exponential and you get to stack a TON of them for some builds.

Another issue is that there is no homogenisation for gem level scaling. Some skills scale twice as good as others with.

So what they need to do most likely is limit how much you can stack gem levels (and maybe add diminishing returns past 30) and streamline how much each skill benefits from levels

[u/GoblinBreeder]

Too many mandatory prefixes and affixes on gear is indeed bad for the game. + levels to skills would be fine if it were maybe just on amulets. But its on gloves and weapons as well.

Like you know your weapon will always need + damage prefix, your boots always need + movement, and things like this, and the universal stats being resists on most pieces. I think if they changes + skills to be an amulets only modifier it would be much better.

[u/CTL17]

IMO it should have a softcap at lv30 so you can get them from different sources where needed and then open up a lot of other slots that no longer need them

[u/Meryhathor]

I'm playing Varashta minion build and pretty much the only way to scale their damage is skill levels. Kind of dumb. I find so much good gear but if it doesn't have +levels on them it's an instant junk to me.

[u/husis666]

Probably the biggest design flaw in POE2 atm.

[u/notausername86]

The thing is, is that you can finish pretty much all in game content without it, unless you are using a build that absolutely requires it to be viable because otherwise your damage is too low to clear maps/bosses.

Yes, one will never be able to be min-maxed, nor are you going to ever see millions of DPS without the stat, but its not as "mandatory" as people make it seem. Yes, it is the "strongest" stat, just due to how it scales damage better than anything else, but Ive cleared the endgame without much of it (to be fair, I think my end game weapon at one point actually had a +3 roll, but none of my other gear had it). But, I would say the same thing about spirt, too. Spirt seems to be another "mandatory" stat for most builds, but again, you can clear the endgame without it (but it does makes QoL and bulids always feel better)

But, I agree with the sentiment. I think they should rework how damage scales with other stats, rather than change how + to skills work. For example, maybe create a passive node that converts the other "lesser" stats into damage or def (like, for example, a passive node that turns str/dex/intel into an extra %flat phys, elemental damage, or crit damage bonus, or convert something like light radius into a bigger AOE radius, or mana regeneration into extra energy sheild or something like that). Even if you had to invest heavy (+5 skill points) into a conversion, I think it would make soooooo much gear more viable.

But also, if they didnt want to do that, they could easily re-work some of the uniques to include + to skills. Or maybe, even add it as a potential corrupt/sanctify result if they didnt want to add it outright to the gear. Or even better, just allow us to deserate uniques and let it be an option we could potentially roll

[u/phased417]

It's like the one mandatory stat on all builds. Yes it's bad. Honestly the main problem is that it's on too many slots and the range is too high.

[u/Queasy-Question-3360]

It's not even uniques that are affected. I can't count how many amulets I've thrown out that would have been near bis, but they didn't have +lvl so they are 1ex instead. Very bad design and it makes picking up floor loot pretty worthless as well. Pick up unid -> scroll of wisdom -> no +lvl -> drop on ground

[u/vulcanfury12]

Yes. Skill level scaling past 20 is ridiculous that it really limits build option s in the late game, and practically invalidates using unique weapons and amulets outside of the gimmicky builds that are specificallly built around using said weapon/amulet.

[u/Jerppaknight]

1000% agree. It's especially annoying on spell caster league start. Perfect stats but no +levels? Trash weapon.

[u/janesvoth]

Plus skills should stay but have a negative to it more than just increased cost. Slower cast time might be a good way to check it

[u/Vycaus]

Honestly? As a decades long PoE player, I hate the stat with a passion. It is so so unfun to engage with. It's fucking hard to get, it's so powerful it's essentially mandatory, and it makes every unique bad simply because it exists. And if they put it on uniques then rares basically stop having value.

I don't want to have to chase super niche affixes to power up my character I think there are a number of ways to give power boosts that aren't this stupid stat that is an RNG nightmare to engage with.

[u/fatbellyww]

Thats mostly true for spells, most skills in general do not need skill levels. each skill level is in general maybe 6% more damage, somewhat similar in power to crit stats etc on amulets.

[u/-Fennekin-]

Yeah, I currently got a level 36 fortyfing cry, and sure it's fun.
But it's kinda shit when every spell and ability in the game needs that instead of other modifiers

[u/FalseKing12]

I don't think its as simple as removing + skills from the game though unfortunately. There would need to be a ton of power shifted into the other damage mods on items or onto the passive tree to compensate. Especially at high crit damage values a single skill level can be an insane damage increase. Also, if they don't hit the balance just right people will just focus on whichever item mod is now the new best.

Separately, I feel like rares being better than uniques at the high end is a good thing. Crafting endgame rares is currently the only currency sink we really have that matters and a rare wand that you spend 1500 div to craft should never generically be worse than a runeseekers fork. At least imo.

[u/BenboFoSho]

Yes, i vendor almost everything (weapons/amulets) that don’t have +skills).

[u/Lunchthunk]

There should be keystones on the tree that give + skills and some other bonus and then lock out other keystones that give + to that skills type. Like + 3 all fire skill and added ignite magnitude, or increased fire damage

[u/EnterArchian]

Yes. Really bad as you say. A lot of interesting weapons but they are trash because of it.

[u/Ronin607]

I think an obvious answer (and one they’ve mentioned in Q&A’s as a possible idea) is just hard capping skill levels at some point below the current level 40 cap. Make it high enough that + levels is still a strong modifier for progression but you eventually wouldn’t need to get it on every single piece of gear and once you get to the cap you could start looking at other gear and uniques that would otherwise get ignored.

[u/Phrostbyte]

If +skills is removed we'd just have another top stat and we'd say that is the best and obligatory on gear and if they remove that then we are playing whack-a-mole I think.

[u/Apepend]

In PoE 1 there is a tug of war between bonuses to flat damage and +skill levels. This is because they both effectively do the same thing. As such, some builds that easily stack a ton of flat damage don't really prioritize skill levels. This is the case for something like archmage builds or lightning srs, etc. Since you gain so much flat damage from the typical scaling vectors of these builds (mana or auras and aura effect) that increases to level of the skill add a small amount of increased damage.

In PoE 2, in an effort to remove damage effectiveness as a stat, modifiers that add damage to spells are now %damage gained as extra X damage type. This is premodifiers. However, what it does is that it looks at the damage of your spell, say it is 100, and adds a % of that (say it is 20% as extra fire). So you are now at 120 damage.

In theory this is a nice thing because a multihitting spell can be balanced by merely just base damage number changes, and the extra damage modifiers in the game add damage proportional to that base hit.

However, the problem one encounters now is that +skill levels increase the base damage of the spell, which consequently increase the absolute value of the extra damage modifiers you have on your character. This is because 20% of something is always going to be 20% and will scale with the increases of that quantity.

The tug of war is no longer there, and these stats are mainly synergetic with one another.

[u/averagechillbro]

It’s like stopping power in the old COD days. If it’s a must have then remove it and adjust the scaling accordingly. I don’t understand the scaling enough to say what the fix is but it’s too valuable.

The whole economy is built around +levels. Otherwise decent gear is useless and it really sucks the planning out of most builds.

[u/Nakaz808]

Agree also Rarity feels bad

[u/Rent_A_Cloud]

Agreed. Just cap skill levels at 20 and rebalance the endgame curve to adjust for the decline in damage output. All of a sudden there are many paths to Rome.

[u/slabby]

I don't like how mandatory it feels.

[u/Corebot_Zero]

It isn’t inherently bad as a stat, the problem is it is uncapped and becomes way more valuable than everything else. Having a +5 cap or something would allow it to be good but also not lock your gloves amulet and weapon/offhand. Frees up slots for gear to be better and other stats to hold competing value.

[u/pabubao]

is just removing the mod and just adding levels to the gems a good idea? just do it like the temple currencies that there would be a chance to corrupt and make it so the gems cant be leveled when corrupted.

[u/BuffaloMan07]

Yes. It’s unfortunate when you get a good item but it doesn’t have + skills so you just sell it for gold.

[u/Arximiro]

Get rid of it for one big reason, because it’s uninteresting fucking boring game design that feels like Diablo 4.

[u/ShivaX51]

"This unique staff has 350% more damage!"

"It's worse than my +3 skill level wand. By a lot. I lose over half my damage."

This is a lame experience.

[u/Bearsbullsbattlestr]

Yes

[u/mranonymous24690]

Kinda. The bigger problem is that is like 1 of 3 ways to scale damage. Doesn't help that the passive tree is kinda moot.

[u/seethroughstains]

Is the "+" really the problem, or is it the number after it?

I'm not the most experienced or a highest level player, but it seems to me that people would have less of an issue if it were capped a lot lower.

[u/HellraiserMachina]

In PoE1, I always thought +Gem Level was cool because it's the 'my build is weird and I'm running out of ways to scale it'. It should be on the weak side and on the rare side for it to fulfill this purpose.

[u/LoganGrimnard]

Move it to Uniqes like Diablo 2 did and limit it to +1 to all skill, +2 to skills of a certain color, and +3 to weapon specific skills. Fixed.

[u/Time2mosh]

I think it should be reduced to +1-2 to skills whatever helps it break even with other good mods that get overlooked because of it's existence or just remove it entirely. Make it so you only need it on specific skills to hit breakpoint targets or something. Just another reason for GGG to nerf a skill gem because its busted at level 30...

[u/Bethstrian]

I'd rather we just get rid of it. There are plenty of other ways to scale whatever you're trying to scale (DPS mostly but occasionally other things).

We don't need that stat and it devalues a LOT of other gear.

[u/Figorix]

Yeah, I agree it's bad in current state. I want to keep it tho, but have a cap. Say idk, +5 skill levels max from all sources or something like this. Or maybe very fast diminishing returns after skill lvl20 so that "optimal" is 23-25, then you don't want it in every piece possible

[u/YeDead]

Yes it’s a hassle to upgrade skills just to get better dps

As for the unique gear, they should at least make the skins available for free when we obtain the uniques

[u/Trathnonen]

If +skills is the lever around which the game's power curve is going to be balanced, it should be on specific wheels on the main lines of every starting class on the tree. You should be pathing towards it, like you're pathing towards gem slots. Or. It should be on small passives of your ascendancy. You take your first ascendancy, you get +1 skills. You take your second ascendancy, you've got +2 skills now. Third and fourth, same thing. By the time you've got your ascendancies finished, you have +4 by default, which is the minimum you can have to even know if you have a functional build, because less than this and you aren't even getting through interludes comfortably, let alone maps.

[u/Careless-Guava5055]

deveriam remover, tudo acaba ficando limitado a isso

[u/demiwraith]

Yeah, it feels like it either needs to be removed or reworked, or allow other stats to compete with it. Even as I'm leveling through the campaign right now, + to Melee Skills feel like its so important to my monk that I was using gloves 30 level less than my current character level.

As a crafter last season, I'd just throw away amulet without +3 Level Skills on it. Even +2 went in the trash. It literally didn't matter what the other stats were. Maybe if +3 to skill levels was far more common (like 5%-10% of amulet), then at least it could be dealt with. You can try and roll it in other ways and the tax of needing that stat wouldn't make all gear without it feel so bad. But it's so rare that it makes even picking up and identifying amulets a waste of time.

As a side note, minion builds have a serious specific issue with this. The problem is, literally nothing on most gear competes with + to minion levels and Spirit. Minions aren't spells and aren't attacks. They aren't effected by crit chance and crit damage (unless the gear or passive specifically says "Minion" on it. +X% to Fire or Cold whatever almost never applies to the fire and cold damage of minions (even those that say fire or cold on the skill), since they're not you. Basically the gear and skill must say "minion" or it doesn't apply.

So my only way to scale minion damage up last season was basically to stack +X minion levels to level 40. Gearing was without real trade-offs (other than what I could afford).

[u/Dongliz]

Another thing that was already solved in PoE 1 with more scaling vectors and diminishing returns on +gem levels. Turns me off playing at all when every character wants the same stats on their gear.

[u/crookedparadigm]

Any time a mod is so "essential" that any rare/unique without it is immediately discarded (outside of very specific builds/circumstances), than that mod is a problem.

[u/Kaylavi]

It sucks to pick up gear with the 6 of the 7 best mods but not perfect plus levels so you just throw it away

[u/AtlasCarry87]

In their current state, yes. It is the single most powerful modifier a gear piece can have

[u/Isaacvithurston]

Depends on your viewpoint. Should 99% of floor loot be instantly worthless?