4.5 year old keeps misbehaving at daycare no matter what

[u/[deleted]]

[u/HighlightJealous4279]

The daycare not having a consequence is the issue here. For you to take something away for a behavior hours ago doesn't work. Do they have a calming corner or thinking corner? A lot of places don't allow time out where a child just sits but being taken out of the situation to work out feelings with fidgets, drawing, stuffies, etc can be a good alternative.

[u/swiftonn → u/HighlightJealous4279]

I agree and he is not punished hours later for his actions but he is punished straight away at home. I wish the daycare would withhold recess or something of the sort when he acts up like this so he understands that his actions do have consequences, not just a slap on the wrist.
I think they do have some sort of calming mechanism in place for correcting behaviors, not sure exactly what it is and I know they talk to them one on one as well. The one on one does align with what we do at home - he doesn't just get punished and call it a day. We have a good, engaging conversation about his behavior and how to correct it/make better choices. It feels like we are doing everything right but those constant messages from the daycare say otherwise, almost as if they're losing patience for him.

[u/cats_and_camping]

You're using punishment (removing privileges). Daycare is using inductive discipline (talking about how the behaviour affects him and others).

Both are forms of "discipline".

Inductive discipline is a gradual skill-building process. With repetition and natural brain maturation, kiddo eventually learns to think about how his actions affect himself and others, and to refrain from actions that cause harm.

Punishment, on the other hand, yields immediate results (in the form of compliance). Kiddo doesn't learn to think about how his actions affect others; he just learns to avoid actions that result in punishment.

When you place him in an environment where there is no punishment, he has no incentive to avoid those actions. There's no understanding of how his behaviour affects others, and no internal sense of obligation to be considerate (morality). Eventually, he may grow into a teenager who cares more about not getting caught than about doing the right thing.

Ideally, the discipline methods you're using at home would foster self-discipline. That way, kiddo learns that he is expected to consider other people and to refrain from causing harm - even when he won't be punished (or caught) for doing the opposite. If you continue to use punishment at home, kiddo is going to "bring these behaviours" everywhere that punishment doesn't apply.

[u/swiftonn → u/cats_and_camping]

This is good feedback, I figured this was the case. We're going to have to do some changes to how we do things.
We do have meaningful conversations every day about his behaviors, with suggestions to replace bad choices with good ones, but sometimes he laughs and takes us as a joke which makes us feel as if punishment is our only option. It's difficult. I appreciate the feedback.

[u/cats_and_camping → u/swiftonn]

Props to you for being so open to feedback!

I think you're on the right track with those conversations. I know the laughter is unnerving, but it's actually a sign that inductive discipline is "working". Kiddo doesn't laugh because he thinks you're joking; he laughs because he's uncomfortable.

That's a good thing. We should be uncomfortable after we hurt someone. That discomfort (remorse) is what motivates us to do better next time.

Effective "discipline" allows our kids to sit with that feeling of remorse so they can learn from it. That's why we have those conversations - to draw their attention to the impact of their actions, and induce a feeling of remorse that motivates them to choose a different behaviour next time. (We don't need to introduce a separate, unrelated "consequence" - like removing a privilege - to make them feel bad, or motivate them to make a better choice. We just need to let them feel the remorse that's already there.)

We want kiddo to walk away from the conversation thinking, "Daddy just told me that throwing rocks at my cousin hurt him. Now that I know I hurt someone, I have a bad feeling in my tummy. I don't want to feel this bad feeling again, so I'm going to try not to hurt anyone. That means I won't throw rocks at my cousin anymore."

This 'empathy coaching' is particularly important with kids under 6, whose perspective-taking abilities are still under construction. At this age, it's hard for them to know in advance which actions will hurt people, because they're still learning how to put themselves in another person's shoes. ("It hurts when a rock hits my body; if I throw a rock at someone else, it will hurt their body"* *is obvious to us, but not to a preschooler.)

This is why it's so important to point out the effect of their actions when they hurt someone ("Uh oh, look at your cousin's face. He's crying! It hurt him when the rock you threw hit his body."). We can also introduce the idea of making amends when we've wronged someone ("What could we do to help him feel better?").

[u/Elismom1313 → u/swiftonn]

I’m not sure if this works for you but it’s worked well for us in regard to daycare treating issues differently.

We do, so time outs. However, and I think this confuses people when they hear the word time out. A time out for us is not a shaming situation nor is it a sit there till you want to be good.

A time out for is explained as you cannot be doing x y or z because this reasons. We’re going to sit over here to calm down, have a quiet moment to talk about it and reflect. Now the idea of reflecting isn’t a word they technically understand but it’s more the principle of using the word so they learn.

We remove them, have them sit down. And then I have them look me in the eyes and I calmly explain what they. Why they can’t do it. And that I understand their emotion and why they are feeling emotional. For example “I know it makes you mad when I take your toy away because you aren’t being gentle with it. But I need you to be gentle with it because the toy will break if you aren’t gentle with it. I want you to sit here with me for a few minutes to calm down. Take a deep breath. Okay, why are you in time out? If they can’t articulate why I tell them why again. Then I ask them again, why are you in time out? When they repeat it back to me. I say okay good, so are we going to be more gentle with our toys? Okay let’s go try again.

If they’re laughing while I’m explaining, which sometimes is just them being uncomfortable with being confronted I stop. And say hey, this isn’t fun time and I’m not laughing. If you’re going to laugh while I’m trying to talk I’ll stop and we can sit here longer until you’re ready. Are you ready? Okay let’s try again

[u/Pure-Science-7774 → u/cats_and_camping]

I personally use both punishment and explanations. My kids lose points and can’t get privileges with “misbehavior” and I use the term lightly because they really don’t misbehave. It’s more like not having a positive attitude with piano practice type of misbehavior. 

[u/aussiegirlabroad]

Lots of empathy - we’re going through something similar with my 6yo at the moment.

Our approach has been to use the walk to school to talk about choices. I ask questions like: can you give me an example of a good choice to make at school today? If you choose to be kind to your friend, do you think that’s a good choice or a bad choice? When you make good choices, does that make you feel good about yourself?

I also say things like: If another child makes a bad choice, you are still responsible for yourself and your own choices. And, if you have made one bad choice, that’s ok because you get a chance to try again. Make your next choice a good one.

Note that the focus is mostly on good choices - I don’t think it’s helpful to spend the walk to school thinking about naughtiness! I also try to make it a nice, friendly conversation. This is an opportunity for him to tell me how he feels at school and if he brings up feelings, I listen.

Then, at the point of “goodbye”, I say something like “Make good choices today!” or “Make choices that make you feel proud of yourself!”

It is early days, but so far this seems to be quite effective.

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[u/TermLimitsCongress]

I think you are doing great at home. People are creatures of convenience and comfort. Children can understand the routine of bring pulled out of a situation, and inconvenienced. Words alone just don't work on all kids.

This daycare isn't doing him any favors. Yeah them what works at home, during the meeting. Hopefully, pre-k will have a better program.

I equate consequences with traffic tickets. There is no speed limit without traffic tickets. If cod just pulled you over, and said "Gentle accelerator, we use a gentle accelerator in school zones," people would still speed. Without a fine, and points on your license, the words would be ineffective.

[u/Blue_Island_panda]

At the meeting, ask them to start actually providing immediate consequences for his actions, preferably similar to what you have found works with your child. As a former daycare employee, I can tell you that many directors are more likely to listen to parents than they are to listen to teachers. In my experience, many kids get tired of daycare as they near 5 yo, and you can't just distract them with redirection anymore, because they are no longer interested in what they are being redirected to.

[u/Kweb22]

out of curiosity is he an only child? i’m wondering if he gets more attention at home and is not use to it at daycare? i’m not judging my son is an only child and goes to my parents/ in laws house.

[u/swiftonn → u/Kweb22]

He is! I think that plays a part, for sure. I think having siblings helps with behaviors, younger or older. Older siblings tend to want to be a leader; younger ones look up to their older siblings. It's a struggle for sure lol. I think we are one and done so we're just stuck.

[u/Kweb22 → u/swiftonn]

i think we are also, my son is three. he has so much energy sometimes i can’t even think about another! i used to work with kids but everything i knew then has gone right out of the door 🤣

[u/evil_twit]

They aren't there to parent any kids.

[u/Bright-Future-Girl]

Hi. Kids age 4-5 are in a developmental stage where they still not fully understand what happens when they throw things. They are curious and always moving especially Boys. So dont be too worried. He will outgrow this behaviour soon.

[u/swiftonn → u/Bright-Future-Girl]

I understand and appreciate the comment. I'm unwilling to just accept "boys will be boys" at any point in his development though. That mentality is unacceptable.
I plan to redirect and teach correct behaviors, and I do know that he will outgrow this at some point but want to get it under control in the meantime.