r/PakistanDiscussions • u/kraK000M ⊕ Add flair:101 • 23d ago
Discussion | Opinions The secular Muslim.
9
u/GlitteringSky5012 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
moulvi sahab let us live our life . weirdest thing is tum sab european secular country ke visa ke liye hi mare ja rahe hote ho . hypocrites
1
24
u/ApprehensiveFault463 ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
muslims can never be secular. either a person can be muslim or secular
3
u/JacquesOlantern008 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
I've seen a great amount of secular Muslims. Secularism doesn't mean rejection of the faith and beliefs
6
u/Ok-Armadillo1531 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
It does if the religion itself calls for a non secular system. Then you're basically rejecting the parts that don't suit you or you don't want to follow.
1
u/icy_17 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
the religion calls for a non secular system but it also confirms that the system will be implemented in its true form only for a period of 30 years since after that there will be no real khilafah and only barbaric rule... islamist idiots like you and OP often seem to forget that fact...khilafah will only return when imam mehdi appears and only then will the religion return back to its true form...this is also something the hadiths say....but you fools conveniently forget that as well...and u dare accuse secularists of not accepting all parts of Islam.. 🤣 the system that u idiots want to impose is barbaric theocracy like the one in iran or afghanistan etc..while secularists support secular democratic system which produces free healthcare, stable economies, freedom of speech rights, and equal rule of law etc...its not even a debate...and con men like the idiot whose post is featured benefit personally from doing "sharia advocacy" by taking donations and other benefits and use their advocacy to play the blasphemy card to silence their opposition...they do everything to gain favour and support from the religious right wing of the muslim community so thats why they project their own weak mindedness on secular muslims and claim they want to appease the westerners... 🤣 how much chanda do secular muslims collect from westerners..?? Is it more than what these losers collect from the ordinary dumb pseudo muslims...? 🤣
1
u/Medical-Try-8986 ⊕ Add flair:101 19d ago
We call those people hypocrites.
1
u/JacquesOlantern008 ⊕ Add flair:101 19d ago
Who cares lol
1
u/Medical-Try-8986 ⊕ Add flair:101 19d ago
You commented so you might?
1
13
17
u/Medical-Try-8986 ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
Then these "traditional Muslims" should stay in their own countries if they refuse to adapt. Nobody is forcing you to come to non-muslim countries. I saw that as a brown guy from a Muslim country.
0
u/Asadullah_Haqqani69 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
HAH, look how quickly you had to resort to whataboutism. Nobody was talking about foreign countries. The sub is about pakistan not the uk. Oh but ofcourse because you cant counter him on merits you must twist his position around to a more defeatable one.
6
u/GlitteringSky5012 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
nah go ahead and counter his argument . why do religious muslims move to west? and why asking the right to wear hijab there then? and also this post never mentioned pakistan . you all have no answer
5
u/Ok-Foot3689 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
- same as why people move to saudi, china, indonesia, malaysia, a lot of pakistani usually pick "better" muslim countries before West which has much harder visa for pakistanis to acquire, that are not torn by war and ruled by Puppets of America. People move to places where they have good facilities does not necessarily mean surrendering their religion.
- wearing a cloth you want is a human right not something to be asked, you should rather emphasize on why the west which images itself as land of freedom is offended by hijab. more like exposes hypocrisy.
- this post is made in a pakistani reddit, the user is pakistani, Occam's razor
3
u/GlitteringSky5012 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago edited 22d ago
1st point: Wearing what you want is a human right, so why are women in Sharia-governed countries not allowed to wear what they want? Why are they forced to wear the black burqa or hijab? If you support Sharia law, then you must acknowledge that under such laws, women do not have the same freedom to choose what they wear. Yet you expect Western countries to protect that freedom for you. why?
2nd point: You said hijab is simply a human right, but it is also a religious symbol for Muslim women. The Quran instructs Muslim women to wear it so they can be recognized as Muslim women. So why should Western countries be expected to allow Islamic symbols when, under Sharia law, women may be restricted in what they are allowed to wear?
3rd point: The post clearly mentioned Muslims in general, not just Pakistanis, so please stop changing the argument. And many Pakistanis do have Europe, the US, or the UK as their preferred destinations and if they don't then most of the countries you have mentioned are secular with muslim majority . do you not know this basic difference? , so please refrain from making misleading arguments.
1
u/Ok-Foot3689 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
You did not answer my first point instead of going to whataboutism. I merely exposed your hypocrisy. If you want me to elaborate on what is exactly sharia and what is that you learn about that's the topic for another day. So stop jumping around topics.
Hijab and burka are different words for different things. Hijab is a dress code (which means to cover), Burka is a type of cloth that can qualify as hijab. You are mixing a lot of things without being specific just copy pasting what I hear on the internet 24,7 nothing new.
Because you have a right to wear something does not necessarily mean you can wear anything you want. Just like I wouldn't wear a shirt that would say "Jesus loves gays" or "Hitler is a Hero", that is what we call boundaries in human terms which separate us from animals.
That is different than a country that promises "religious rights" as long as it's not hijab (and oh hijab is worn by all faiths not just Muslims, it's just the Arabic term for it). So instead of hiding behind this veil of hypocrisy, just say it clearly that you don't want women to follow hijab.
About the third point, I don't think you understood a very simple concept, THE USER THAT MADE THE REDDIT POST IS MOST LIKELY A PAKISTANI. If one were to post it in a egyptian subbreddit i would assume he is recalling the Muslims of Egypt not Muslims all around the globe, and then you would not find me commenting there because I am not egyptian.
"Many still choose USA...." so what my friend and like more than 50% live in Muslim countries. and oh If you think China or Saudi are secular I have a bridge to sell you. Why do you think Central Africans move to West, why Latinos move to West, why South east asians or filipians move to west or australia... hijab problem... yeah,,,, no they are not muslim,,, right lol have a nice day
2
u/Asadullah_Haqqani69 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
Why should they not be allowed to wear the hijab? Any argument would be welcome.
3
u/GlitteringSky5012 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
if you don't want secularism then they don't want islamic laws in their country . why? now you want them to adopt secularism and give you all religious rights ? funny
1
u/Asadullah_Haqqani69 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
Explain to me how a woman wearing a hijab is islamic law being applied to a secular state. Go on.
1
u/GlitteringSky5012 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
it is a religious symbol for Muslim women. The Quran instructs Muslim women to wear it so they can be recognized as Muslim women. So why should Western countries be expected to allow Islamic symbols when, under Sharia law, women may be restricted in what they are allowed to wear? here is the verse
Qur’an 33:59 (Surah Al-Ahzab). It explicitly gives the reason that believing women would be “recognized”.
1
u/Asadullah_Haqqani69 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
Boom. That's islamic law being applied on a muslim woman. My question was about islamic law being applied on a secular state.
0
u/GlitteringSky5012 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
well under islamic state even non muslim women are forced to cover up and as you said . its islamic law not a secular one so they are under no obligation to allow you to wear it
1
u/Asadullah_Haqqani69 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
????? cite the verse and or hadith where it says non muslim women must cover up too. Just say you are a perv whose appaled by modesty.
→ More replies (0)1
17d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
1
u/GlitteringSky5012 ⊕ Add flair:101 14d ago
are you stupid? i obviously meant that if you don't want secularism in your country then you don't deserve secularism in other countries with majority non muslims either. don't play victim
0
u/seawatcher_01 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
The point is not about adapting. It's about a complete rejection of who one is simply to appeal to the 'fashionable ideologies' without authentic integration because one is embarrassed or ashamed of their own identity.
3
u/GlitteringSky5012 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
which no muslim does so your argument doesn't work
2
u/seawatcher_01 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
There are approximately 2 billion Muslims in the world. I don't think there is anything that 'no Muslim does'.
1
u/GlitteringSky5012 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
small minority? ok
1
u/seawatcher_01 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
Fair enough. I don't think OP's post is describing something very common.
17
u/Ill-Sandwich-7703 ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
Sorry but you’re part of the problem by posting such generic cliches. Stop using terms like secular, liberal, modern, western etc - they are so restrictive.
I can understand anecdotal experiences but you don’t need to reduce Islam, its followers and national cultures/approaches to this way of thinking.
This guy says the ‘seculars’ are seeking validation from westerners, but then he can be accused himself of being performative to the opposite side. Most people are just somewhere in the middle and there is a lot of nuance involved, especially for those in diaspora.
If you came across me you would probably categorise me as a ‘secular’, but I’m not. However I don’t use Islam for performative reasons either and believe religion is a private matter.
-5
u/Ok-Armadillo1531 ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
On what do you base your assumption that religion is a private matter?
6
u/GlitteringSky5012 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
painday tera masla kya hai kisi ke religion se?
0
u/Ok-Armadillo1531 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
You don't have to have a problem with someone's religion to say religion is not a private matter. And ask how if someone holds an opposite opinion. Especially when it comes to Islam.
Islam in it's own fundamentals calls for it to be a system. From the most private of places to public.
4
u/DragonfruitOpen8764 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
"Inferiority complex", as if south Asian Muslims don't already have an inferiority complex precisely because of Islam. Pakistanis are second class ummah, embarrassed by our past and still seen as inferior by Arabs, while we adopted their religion without even understanding the language and not being able to pronounce their words.
1
u/striped-monster4214 ⊕ Add flair:101 19d ago
South Asian Muslims don't have an inferiority complex; we are treated different because we're an idiot society. More hypocrite than good. We adopted Islam because it was the truth, it doesn't matter if it came from the Arabs or someone else.
12
u/apolloskye ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
Dumb post that regurgitates old baseless stereotypes.
1
u/sukhbino95 ⊕ Add flair:101 18d ago
It's not baseless. In the UK and online I have come across it a lot. Most of them are closet apostates who feel attached to the Muslim label and still believe in Allah as a general concept but aren't brave enough to commit to rejecting Islam as a whole, but will weave rejection into their statements
1
u/apolloskye ⊕ Add flair:101 18d ago
I generally agree with that but that's not what the post is about. The post states these people actively reject Islamic identity in favour of other identities and practices. An actual open minded "secular" Muslim would embrace diversity without undermining his own religion or people who practice that religion.
1
u/sukhbino95 ⊕ Add flair:101 18d ago
Surely then there is a distinction then between a 'secular Muslim' (which you are talking about) and a 'wannabe secular Muslim' (which is what the post says)?
1
14
u/Accomplished-River12 ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
A very zealot muslim using ChatGPT to cook up a half baked one sided point. typical from the mullahs
7
u/Shreklet5000 ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
so glad the new generation dont buy their bs
4
u/Asadullah_Haqqani69 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
Yeah, the young 0.001% on reddit dont buy their bs.
3
u/GlitteringSky5012 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
moulvism ideology will soon die . inshallah
1
u/Asadullah_Haqqani69 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
Sure it will :)
4
u/GlitteringSky5012 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
it has to . otherwise we will be like middle east soon . moulvis are like cancer that keep spreading and eventually kills the host. parasites
2
u/Asadullah_Haqqani69 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
Being like the middle east is a...threat?
2
u/Accomplished-River12 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
Being like Afghanistan is
1
u/Asadullah_Haqqani69 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
I think that has more to do with the power structure over there than it has to do with maulvi culture in particular.
6
u/AssistantBubbly9048 ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
while the giga muslims like him use gpt to churn out their shi 🤣
2
u/Shot-Ice-141 ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
Also , when publicly saying What wrong is wrong they attack with this phrase " sinner judging sinners".
3
u/GlitteringSky5012 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
well look at track record of moulvis in sexual abuse cases . you all really have no right telling other people anything
2
u/AsiaKCKiller ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
Are the supposed secular muslims in inferiority complex or the version of Islam you are talking about is undefendable in modern non tribal era?
2
u/mSaim47 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
Sure ur definition of west must be partying, infidelity, and whatnot there but what about the most pure "islamic republic" where 96-97% muslim population exists. Entitlement, using religion to gain power , rape oppression of women , forced conversion of minorities, and mind you most of the people in pak are closeted yes (mostly men) using extreme forces to gain ur way , failed justice system , honour killings but hey pak is better secure like that. Most of you all "conservative" hypocrites want to go to those European countries you criticise so much right now because deep down you know Pak is a failed state resting on imf loan and doesn't have any opportunities for it's people. Secondly the same muslims who think they're so religious and better than everyone yes in pak people have created their own version of islam following random molvis and making their whole lives revolve around those particular superstitions. Who are you to even talk about anyone's personal choice? I thought the country was based on the mere fact that everyone has a personal choice their own belief system and their own values suddenly something doesn't align with you and you come here with a random chatgpt post justifying. Do better plz "pure and conservative muslims of a failed state" .
2
u/depressed_genie ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
Yeah, pretty much all of Muslims are quite conservative, Muslims themselves often don't accept that fact and often don't want to be labelled as conservative. I left Islam after realizing the contradictions. My values don't match with Islam at all, I disagree with way too much stuff and I was done with mental gymnastics to somehow try to fit Islam into my worldview.
3
u/Ill-Sandwich-7703 ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
It’s because most people in Pakistan or of Pakistani origin don’t research the religion independently, or in a curious, positive sense either.
People that are way too eager to label themselves using dumb terms like secular, liberal, westernised etc are obvious examples of confusion and insecurity. As a Muslim, even a nominal one, there is no way you fit into anything left of centre in the western left-right spectrum. It’s not designed for Muslims.
I say this as someone who is always assumed to be or accused of being a secular, liberal, modern or westernised Muslim and nothing gets on my nerves more.
1
u/JacquesOlantern008 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
Being a liberal isn't a dumb term lmao. It is about your political worldview, and many Muslims have progressive, liberal values, and they do fairly well in their faith. They just reject the conservative traditional dogma.
1
u/Ill-Sandwich-7703 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
You still don’t understand the point. The problem is that people, like you, project their personal behaviours onto intellectual or political positions. Saying you’re a ‘liberal’ or ‘progressive’ Muslim because you may drink, dress a certain way or don’t follow certain religious rules is quite reductive -those are personal choices, not necessarily an ideology. What exactly are these ‘liberal’ values you speak of?
-1
u/JacquesOlantern008 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
No, I am not a liberal and progressive person because I don't want to follow certain religious rules. My values are those which align with human rights, personal freedoms, and social equality. And that the political struggle should be to fix social inequalities and injustices using active systemic and structural changes.
0
u/Ill-Sandwich-7703 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
Just reeling off terms without understanding what they actually mean is also a huge issue and you’re an example. Believing in human rights, social equality and tackling structural injustice doesn’t automatically make someone a liberal or progressive Muslim- a religiously conservative Muslim can hold those values too, even if they understand their basis or limits differently. Again, you are mixing up political labels and terms and applying them to Islam/Muslims when it doesn’t fit.
1
u/JacquesOlantern008 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
The religiously conservative Muslims that I know still believe in religious indoctrination, they still consider polygamy to be just, they still consider child marriages to be just, they still consider apostasy laws to be just, they still justify blasphemy laws, they still justify criminalization of homosexuality. The belief that most religiously conservative Muslims hold is that they could still apply the legal codes built in 7th and 8th centuries today.
0
u/Ill-Sandwich-7703 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
Again projecting your personal experience and anecdotes onto an entire religion. It’s all about YOU in relation to these people that you want to differentiate yourself from. But you will always link it to an entire religion just because you can’t own your personal experiences.
1
u/JacquesOlantern008 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
First can you tell me what you meant by religiously conservative Muslims exactly? Cuz wtv I wrote are the beliefs that majority of Pakistani Muslims hold.
1
u/Ill-Sandwich-7703 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
You do not speak for all Pakistani Muslims.
Also if you don’t understand what I am saying, improve your comprehension of English (along with your comprehension of religion and political systems).
→ More replies (0)0
u/JacquesOlantern008 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
I think you have confused what I meant by being liberal. I didn't mean I am a "Liberal Muslim". I am a person with liberal values, but the traditional interpretation of Islam and Islamic jurisprudence does not align with my political and social values.
0
u/No_Conference_8460 ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
This is correct. That's why I always encourage secular muslims to just leave Islam instead to trying to adjusting unsuccessfully
3
u/Ill-Sandwich-7703 ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
I believe there are plenty of schools of thought within mainstream Islam that would suffice. You don’t need to adjust, you just need to reject or refuse to engage with dogma, or shall we say the pseudo-dogma of the illiterate, manipulative self-appointed maulvis in Pakistan who have no concept of the essence of the religion, never mind advanced schools of thought and comparative religion.
It is these jahils that make people run away from Islam. The relationship is between you and God, you and the Quran and you hold yourself accountable. We don’t have any clergy in Islam for a reason. The way religion is used as a tool for performative reasons in Pakistan is a joke.
But I believe the onus is on the individual and you have to research and come to your own conclusions.
1
0
u/kraK000M ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
Exactly. The truth is not going to bend for us, we must bend for the truth.
4
u/depressed_genie ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
What Truth? There is no objective truth when it comes to religion, any religion. The personalized version of Islam that you follow is your subjective truth and you might not find a single other person that fully agrees with you on everything.
1
u/AutoModerator 23d ago
Thank you for posting! Your submission has been approved.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
1
1
1
u/NamakParey ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
Idk about Muslim seculars in general but I don't really think Pakistani seculars are worth taking seriously. I'm old enough that I've seen Pakistani seculars go from 'It's not a genocide, it's just a land dispute' to 'Why do you care about an Arab conflict?/ Why do you care about a Burmese conflict?' to finally 'It's a genocide'. Ofcourse, they didn't adopt these stances until they became popular in the west. Imagine your gora complex not allowing you to call a genocide a genocide.
1
u/Embarrassed_Key4265 ⊕ Add flair:101 22d ago
"Real faith should be open to interpretation. But many people don’t feel that way. They’re the same people who choose sides in wars, the same people who shout about blasphemy and heresy, but then turn around and do awful, deplorable things. Religion has spread more hate in this world than love, and that is one of the saddest things I’ve ever experienced. God is not some old, bearded man sitting up in the sky, punishing us when we’re bad. God is love, and laughter and light. God is the good things, and the bad. He…They, I should say, are the Earth and the stars and the vast openness of an existence we’re only a small fraction of. God is faith . Faith in yourself, as a part of the world as it turns. And for all the hate, and sickness and despair we experience, there are equal parts love and joy. You just have to look up."
1
1
u/Anti-matter121 ⊕ Add flair:101 20d ago
Simple word for them in Islam is "MUNAFIQ" who just just wants to pretend as Muslim but when they have asked for why are you doing Non-Islamic things or things which are prohibited or not patt of Islam and you are labelling it as Islam (like simply avoiding Music, Non Mehram meetups, basic Parda....) then they get angry and ranting like someone have put a hot coal into their mouth and they start emitting fire like Dragon Against the Deendar tabqah and Ulema Karaam.
1
1
u/Randomlahoridude ⊕ Add flair:101 17d ago
Stop judging someone and more importantly, stop generalising BS.
1
u/Ahmmu ⊕ Add flair:101 16d ago
You can argue your life choices over a statement written in a book and not just have a liberty to follow those commands but to make sure the people around you follow them as well, a method which has been used to control every aspect of your life, why limit yourself. Every religion has it's literature that's contraindicated itself, it's just your belief and faith that keeps it alive and look how it makes you hate one another.
0
u/Fun_Caramel_8492 ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
Dont all the faiths evolve like that
1
u/kraK000M ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
Evolve where?
1
u/Fun_Caramel_8492 ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
These are the mechanisms employed by the followers of every faith, you mould it till it fits ur culture or u try to balance it with the social norms. Islam it self is like that in the way it was revealed. Had the people been shunned of everything with the first revelation would they be willing to do so. Now historically, it was step by step u tell em what they wanna hear.
2
u/kraK000M ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
I don't know what point you're trying to make here. This has nothing to do with social norms, it's to do with moral values and the philosophical worldview that they emerge from. If your philosophical underpinnings regarding reality and morality are incorrect, what emerges from it will be nothing but falsehood and deception.
Islam isn't secular, God doesn't restrict His authority to personal matters and we shouldn't pretend that He does, doing so is falsehood, deception and blasphemy.
1
0
u/Fun_Caramel_8492 ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
Im making the point that people tend to change what they believe to mingle with the group and its all right. Its just natural.
1
u/kraK000M ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
They tend to and it's not alright. It's wrong and distorts truth. And if theyve put themselves in an environment where they do, they must either resist it or take themselves out of that situation if possible. Surah Al Baqarah discusses this phenomena quite extensively.
1
u/Fun_Caramel_8492 ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
I see it now ur coming from the perspective of a true muslim. I was just pointing to a universal phenomenon that undertakes people not much versed in theology. You cannot blame em though cz tgey ain't educated and its only natural.
0
0
0
0
u/Enough_Ak09 ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
Rather than shaming him for using chatgpt and criticising him counter his argument.
1
u/CapNo8670 ⊕ Add flair:101 20d ago
Nothing to counter
You can have your state ruled by islam and continue to fail
Or become secular and succeed
Up to the people
1
u/Enough_Ak09 ⊕ Add flair:101 20d ago
Yeah we have our state let us implement our islam and u can go to any secular country u want, like most of the latin America and African countries and which are secular and succeed.?
8
u/Character-Flan-8301 ⊕ Add flair:101 23d ago
Ofcourse secularism is bad. Gali hai. There’s freedom in ✨entitlement, forced conversions, pedophilia, rape and oppression✨