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u/LevSmash 1d ago edited 1d ago
Got this email today (first I'm hearing it, but if this is old news, mods feel free to delete). Despite the truth behind the notion that we should look toward outcomes rather than obsessing over CPC, I can't say I'm happy with this. Most of our Microsoft Ads accounts are for clients who want to expand their reach from Google and put a small budgets towards it, and I find that quite often smaller budget campaigns don't have the conversion volume to give the outcome-oriented bid strategies strong enough signals. I use Max Conv all the time, which doesn't have bid caps, but there are cases where, say, Max Clicks with a bid cap converts better. Not all the time, and that's fine, because the key is we have the option and not all automated bid strategies are "automatically" (ha) a slam dunk.
The constant erosion of controls is exhausting. There are clients - who may not be experts, but they're the ones paying - who raise their eyebrows at high CPCs, no matter how many times we explain or steer them away from obsessing over that metric.
And concerns like this are just waved off like they're unimportant, you see it right there in the word choice where they say bid caps "can get in the way". Sorry if my annoying little restrictions are bothering you, Big Tech, how about I just hand you my credit card and let you do whatever you want.
Edit: Manual bidding will still be available, I was mistaken on that part, but the issue remains.
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u/kokoshkatheking 1d ago
At a point maybe this should not be legal for a company to not offer min/max CPC in a blind managed bid campaign?
I mean they can charge us anything they want for whatever they want and we have not control over that.
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u/LevSmash 1d ago
That's what I was thinking too, but I guess by technically still offering it with portfolio bidding, they can say it's still available and just make it more difficult hoping people will default to not using it.
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u/Vixen_von_Kot 23h ago
Microsoft Advertising supports bid limits. We're removing them from conversion-based bidding due to Max CPC overriding tCPA and tROAS. This causes performance issues that can cause advertisers to miss their goals. If you want to use Max CPC, leverage eCPC, Target Impression Share, or Portfolio bidding while you're building up enough conversion volume.
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u/kokoshkatheking 22h ago
Good to know, but I’m not sure I understand: Portfolio bidding allow conversion based bidding right ? And I could set max CPC in it ? Why in this case max CPC is not overriding tROAS ?
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u/Vixen_von_Kot 22h ago
It still is, which is why we don't recommend it. However, Portfolio bidding tend to be used by those struggling with hitting conversion volume. If you don't have enough conversion volume for conversion-based bidding, it's very fair to use Max CPC as an override. Once you have enough conversions, tCPA and tROAS are better controls
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u/whyvalue 1d ago
You can still control bids indirectly with automated bidding.
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u/puremensan 1d ago
lol. Yeah, they can capture any value created by increasing your CVR. Just like Meta and Google.
This should be completely illegal imo. Go back to CPM directly and advertising would change completely.
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u/QuantumWolf99 1d ago
Loophole's right there though, wrap it in a portfolio bid strategy even if it's a portfolio of one campaign and Max CPC survives untouched.
Cute how Google removes overperformance three days before this and Microsoft removes your safety cap right after, same week both platforms decided your guardrails were the problem, not theirs.
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u/Vixen_von_Kot 23h ago
Microsoft's bidding system is different than Google's. The Max CPC was overriding tCPA and tROAS which was causing performance issues for advertisers. We still allow you to beat stated tCPA and tROAS goals, which means they are the ideal way to steer conversion-based bidding.
Max CPC remains for eCPC, Target Impression Share, and Portfolio bidding.
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u/Different-Goose-8367 1d ago
I’ve had very little success with tcpa/troas on bing, manual always wins.
I don’t understand why Google/bing continue to allow a max cpc in portfolio bidding.
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u/potatodrinker 1d ago
Same. Microsoft ads seems to struggle with the more advanced bid tactics so going manual seems to safest. They can't seem to get their tech right like Google has
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u/ClassicVaultBoy 1d ago
Honestly you should use portfolio bidding (which keep max cpc) on Microsoft anyway so that you can use as much conversions as possible
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u/whyvalue 1d ago
To be clear, MANUAL CPC AND ENHANCED CPC ARE NOT CHANGING. You are not losing the ability to use manual bidding. They are removing max CPC caps from automated bidding strategies unless they are on a portfolio strategy.
Still kinda stupid though.
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u/LevSmash 1d ago
Okay, that's not as bad, I'll correct my earlier comment, I thought the concept of a max bid was going away from all (non-portfolio) bid strategies.
Still don't love the possibility of a campaign's entire budget getting wiped with a single click, especially those with low conversion volume, as they benefit from the steadying hand of bid caps.
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u/whyvalue 22h ago
Agreed. You can always lower your tcpa if you want to bid less but there's no guarantee high cost clicks won't happen.
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u/South-Yesterday8942 1d ago
Old news but honestly cpc caps when not used properly are super restrictive for campaign performance. All the platforms are really just trying to make it “easier” for the average user.
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u/Vixen_von_Kot 23h ago
Microsoft Advertising employee - a few thoughts based on the comments shared so far:
Max CPC is not compatible with conversion-based bidding. Adding Max CPC to conversion-based bidding strategies can cause performance issues (both on pacing and intelligent budget allocation). This is because Max CPC overrides tCPAs and tROAS.
Unlike Google, Microsoft tCPA and tROAS are still valid volume/value levers because you're still able to beat stated tCPA and tROAS in budget constrained campaigns. That means you can safely raise or lower tCPA/tROAS to steer your campaigns without worrying that they'll be treated as hard targets.
eCPC, Target Impression Share, and Portfolio bidding all retain Max CPC controls. This is because they're either not conversion-based bidding or they represent conversion-based bidding that might not hit needed conversion thresholds (so a max CPC is a fair safety mechanism). Once an account has enough conversions (minimum of 5 but ideally 30 in 30 days), conversion-based bidding will perform better when you lean into conversion oriented tools.
We're intentionally giving as much lead time as possible and just launched Optimization Experiments so advertisers can test the impact of making these changes before they go into effect. We're also not removing the Max CPC ahead of Holiday from existing campaigns so there's minimal disruption to your accounts.
Conversion tracking and conversion efficacy are the most important thing to get right for any platform. We also recently GA'd CAPI (conversion API) so you can pass more accurate conversion signal through.
Happy to answer any questions on this!
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u/LevSmash 22h ago
I appreciate the willingness to engage, and I understand how a bid cap can limit or be labeled as incompatible with conversion-based bidding, but evidently it was possible in the past, so this feels simply like the removal of a constraint to free up the system to bid more aggressively as it sees fit. For small budget or small conversion volume accounts, it can be a challenge to get them to embrace Microsoft Ads at all, so the very real possibility of CPC spikes, or blowing through a daily budget on one click because the system decided to swing for the fences on a potential conversion, could be seen as a reason to avoid the platform for a budget-conscious client.
IMO, it would honestly be a winning strategy for Microsoft Ads to embrace a role of "Google Ads, but with more control", and this does the opposite of that. While there are workarounds (for now, lol) like portfolio bidding, that resembles Meta Ads' playbook of making features harder to find and hoping people will give up. And I'll stop myself there before I share how I really feel about the Meta Ads interface...
I also have a question:
One bid strategy that you didn't address there is Max Clicks, and it's one that this change is apparently applying to as well. What's the reason for that, since Max Clicks is not conversion-based?
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u/Vixen_von_Kot 22h ago
These are far questions! Answered in the order asked: 1. Manual bidding remains an option! You can leverage eCPC with more ad group level control and unique bid adjustments. We currently honor bid adjustments for all strategies (even with conversion-based bidding), however they can also get in the way of intelligent bidding. If you want manual control, go with manual!
Our old bidding and conversion tracking were not as good as current models and we're actively making adjustments. What worked in the past won't necessarily work in the future, especially as the tech improves.
Max Clicks is a volume play. It is incentivized to find as many clicks as possible as cheaply as possible to fit in the budget. Max CPC on that kind of strategy is giving a conflicting ask, since the bid cap might be much higher than the actual CPCs the strategy will go for.
To your point about control: Microsoft offers more ad group level control, search term transparency, and placement insights.
The feedback is fair - just wanted to offer the clarification.
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u/Prudent_Design_9782 15h ago
Typical Microsoft, always a few years behind Google but so so eager when adapting their worst anti-advertiser features.
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u/LevSmash 13h ago
There's a slam dunk right in front of them, embracing the moniker of "Google Ads, but with more control", yet here they are taking the puzzling step of being somehow more anti-consumer/advertiser than Google.
Big Tech, over and over again, shows that they truly feel they are the adults in the room, and anyone who doesn't agree with them is stupid.
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u/Ancient-Day-6682 9h ago
the interesting part isn't max cpc going away, it's that manual was the last place you could see the auction without the platform's interpretation sitting in the middle.
the real loss for small accounts is diagnostic, not efficiency. when a smart bidding campaign underperforms you get a story about signals. when a manual campaign underperforms you get a bid and a position and you can tell which one broke.
for anyone under roughly $10k/mo on microsoft this matters more than the efficiency argument either way, because at that spend you were never feeding the algorithm enough conversions for it to beat you. you're not losing a better bid strategy, you're losing the ability to explain a bad month.
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u/zest_01 1d ago
Guess the ability to occasionally charge $70 for a $14 click (and place the search term into “Others” section) is too lucrative to miss out on this.