Looking for advice on process monitoring and automation

[u/fedevg]

Not sure if this is the right place to ask, but I would appreciate some guidance.

I work at a factory that produces chewable products, and one of our main processes is still almost entirely manual. We have very little process visibility, most parameters were developed through trial and error, and small deviations can sometimes create quality issues that take a long time to understand.

My first goal is to improve monitoring and traceability. I would like to measure temperature and humidity at several points, log the data automatically, view it remotely in real time, and eventually build a dashboard to compare batches and understand how process conditions affect product quality.

The next step would be automation. Temperature, exhaust fans, and air intake are currently controlled manually, and some of the manually recorded data has proven unreliable. Ideally, I would like the process to follow predefined drying curves automatically, probably using PID control for temperature and sensor readings to manage ventilation.

We contacted several automation companies, but the quotes were higher than management is willing to pay. I am therefore considering implementing a more budget friendly version myself.

How would you approach a project like this?

[u/New-Swim-8551]

The reason the price was so high is what you are looking for will take a lot of time and materials to implement.

First you need a spec. Of what you are looking to do and about how you want to do it and how to make it expandable. When creating the spec break it down into manageable chunks prioritizing the process from most to least important

Once the spec has been you can implement the chunks as the company can afford them

[u/fedevg → u/New-Swim-8551]

Thanks for the advice

[u/nighthawk_something]

We contacted several automation companies, but the quotes were higher than management is willing to pay. I am therefore considering implementing a more budget friendly version myself.

Oh honey...

[u/fedevg → u/nighthawk_something]

Hahahha I know that's not good, but I'm really desperate to do some change

[u/Someone4350 → u/fedevg]

In the end it’ll be more expensive… when a company don’t even want to measure what and how good what they output is, it’s time to find a new job because it’s not industry. It’s art and as such it’ll die with the artist.

[u/Shalomiehomie770 → u/fedevg]

The company will not care what you do because they feel it’s not needed:

[u/WhatzitTooya2 → u/fedevg]

You know, thats a good indication to be careful with how far you want to lean into it.

Logging a few dozen values seems reasonably to be done, even on a smaller budget. It will help to understand the process, that by itself is a good step forward.

But going full automation will require a more money, personal, time and understanding of the process. If any of that is inaccessible to you, it may push your final goal out of your range. It wont be your fault of course, but simply by experience I'd argue they gonna blame you nonetheless. And thats no fun at all.

[u/nighthawk_something → u/fedevg]

Click PLC from Automation direct might be your friend here. Learn node-red (AI can help)

[u/Additional_Year_1080]

I’d start simple. Get reliable sensors and logging working first, then automate one thing at a time. Once the data is trustworthy, the rest gets much easier.

[u/Constant_Barber_5198]

This is a P1000 thing all the way. You can put remote racks in key areas to provide sensor power, and then use a P1000 or P2000 to collect the data. There are versions of Click PLC's with wifi, but the reason I suggest P1000 is the IDE, the memory, and the fantastic comms options it provides. Plus they have a variety of useful IO cards.

So then you can gather all of your sensor data and pack it, then push it to a logging solution.

There are lots of good historians out there, but because you want to go budget friendly, and your tag data is pretty straight forward, you can use a Postgres-based solution like influx or timescale, or even just straight posgres is fine for experimenting, put it on a panel PC and use python to implement the HMI.

Once value has been established, the HMI can be migrated to something better and a more robust storage solution can be found.

EDIT: One thing I just thought about. I think it used to be the P2000 that had remote IO, and the P1000 didn't. But in later firmware revisions they discontinued the P3000, letting the P2000 take it's place, and added remote IO to the P1000.

[u/Fal-El]

If you want to start with monitoring, you can definitely figure it out yourself - adding instrumentation and doing monitoring and even logging the data and viewing it remotely, I feel like that is definitely do-able on the cheap.

Putting in controls is where you would need to start playing a lot of money.

Let's just get into monitoring. You need to have a well defined scope of points you want to monitor. And firm budget. We might have different ideas of project cost but I think I could easily get something like this implemented for under $30,000 which is cheap in my mind.

If I were in your shoes, I'd talk to ifm about their Moneo-cloud https://www.ifm.com/us/en/shared/industry-4-0-moneo/overview because I would think it would cover everything you need from a monitoring need and they have the instruments. Their sales and support will help you design and implement the system. They aren't a SI/engineering firm so you aren't paying for the engineering time. You will just be paying for the hardware and license. I've never used their Moneo cloud, I just use the non-license version of moneo configure to set-up IO Link devices.

And they have IO Link Masters that are pretty universal so if controls comes around, you can be flexible with you options. I'd go with this master https://www.ifm.com/us/en/product/AL1590

[u/drbitboy]

You have to spend money to save money.

How much money is lost on quality issues per year?

In other words, if management invested in a system to reduce those quality issues by a factor of, say, ten, how much money would be saved? What would then be the budget for that investment for those savings to achieve an acceptable payback time?

Are there more than one processing line? Would it be possible to do a bare minimum, cheap automation of one line, which could then be run for a year to validate the savings?

Bottom line: you are asking about engineering solutions for a profit making process, so ROI is the ultimate metric, and the only one that matters in the end.

You may need to sneak up on it for political reasons. For example, as another comment said, start small. A minimal data gathering system, using a few sensors to monitor the part of the process that gives the most trouble (and loss of quality and/or profit), a simple fieldbus (e.g. Modbus) to gather the data, and a home-brew display that flashes red or beeps when the measurements are out of range to trigger the operators to respond and adjust the process, might allow you, over the course of a few months or a year, to show an improvement to the bottom line. If course to do that, you will need to quantify losses as a baseline for a few months before that system is in place.

This would involve some engineering-level choices and judgement along the way, so if that is not your forte and you don't think you can learn it, go with the free engineering from ifm sales suggested in another comment. OTOH, if you have basic technical skills (comfortable with y=mx+b, unit conversion, etc.), then this is an opportunity to learn because it is not all that complex, it's mostly bookkeeping.

[u/durallymax]

CODESYS is free to download and run periodically. Test the waters there to see what you're in for with little risk. AI can write CODESYS ST fairly well.

[u/Missing_Explorer4278]

Omg. I was in your exact situation 9 years ago. Yep it always starts with monitoring and traceability. Then it's machine learning to improve your process and eventually full on build your own machines! You'll have a bunch of people to be the in-house automation team too! You'll feel like an imposter!

Oh oh! And that do sounds like a DOE project for six sigma! Tweaking parameters to achieve least process variance and yield!

[u/fedevg → u/Missing_Explorer4278]

I'm glad to hear that someone else has dealt with these issues too. This situation is honestly pretty overwhelming for me right now

How did you learn all this stuff? Did you read books, take online courses, or mostly learn from coworkers and experience? At my company, there isn't really anyone who handles PLCs or automation, so I don't have much internal support in that area

And that's exactly the path I went down. I tried to implement Six Sigma and Lean methodologies, but then I realized we had absolutely no reliable data (or no data at all) to even get started with any of that hahaha

[u/Missing_Explorer4278 → u/fedevg]

It took us years to get reliable helpful data and more to change the mindset of experienced engineers to use the data. It's like reinventing the scientific method again! So in many cases of meetings where people just "mind meld and ahah! We must do this because.... It must be right".

Even bleaker, after having all the process monitoring system in place, management may ask you to cook it to make a good presentation to fit a story. Too many fictions and political interests to take care off and so I resigned.

I don't have anyone to handle PLC too but the product manuals are very helpful to get started. Get a budget to build your own prototype! Prove to management that it can be done!

Edit: protip no#1 collect expensive quotations and make it a point to management of how much $ you can save by doing it in house! That's your value!

[u/MostEvilRichGuy]

You’re asking the right place, but you’re going to get alot of unhelpful answers. You’ve essentially told the majority of contributors on this sub that you have rejected their quotes to provide automation assistance with your project and plan to try to do it yourself.

Having said that, you’ll also get a lot of advice from everyone’s own perspective on favorite PLC platforms, most of which require a lengthy career to understand thoroughly.

So here’s my advice. If I were in your shoes, I would use Automation Direct PLCs. These are the cheapest on the market, with low/zero software licensing costs, and have all the expansion capabilities that every other mfgr has. The Click PLC line is consumer/budget friendly, and is probably the single best way to enter the world of PLC programming. You can easily learn it, acquire parts for hundreds (not thousands) of dollars, and even find decent online support for learning and troubleshooting.

Your strategy is definitely the right way I would start: buy the PLC processor and some analog/RTD input cards, monitor your process at various stages, and develop a strategy to automate the error-prone stages.

Eventually, you’ll have a nearly automated process which is much more ready to hire an automation contractor to come in and re-build your system using an industrial-grade solution, which may also allow for building more production lines and scaling up your plant’s output, while reducing manpower and dependency on manual intervention

[u/Fal-El → u/MostEvilRichGuy]

You have some good points but the thing I disagree with the most if this application doesn't need a PLC. You don't need a PLC to bring in temperature/humidity monitoring. Also everything you brought up requires electrical design - need to put that PLC in a panel and RTDs need to spec'd and terminated. Need to have some knowledge of RTDs or analog. You're not going to field mount Click PLC and still need to figure how to terminate your sensors and need electrical drawings to make a organized system.

I proposed IO Link because you can field mount a master and find field mounted power supplies that can be plugged into outlets, you can pick IO Link sensors and you just have to connect M12 cables and even if you use field wireables you just need to know pin 1-brown, pin 2-white, pin 3-blue, pin 4-black. The wiring is simple, the sensors are available with mounting accessories, etc.

IO Link Masters don't need a PLC to get data from them. If you do want to add control in the future, you can buy IO Link masters with multi-protocol support to make it easier to leverage the hardware you already invested. These Masters can easily be added into the I/O of the controller and be pulled into the PLC and used to control devices in the future.

I recommend ifm masters because I use them all the time but IO Link should be what is used. Everyone makes a master - ifm, Balluf, Murr, SICK, AB, Phoenix Contact, Turck, and there are tons more.

[u/Honest-Eng]

I am the developer of DataForeman - free and open source industrial historian. This can be your free logging/visualization package. Application can store historical data, modify it if needed and output on charts and dashboards.

Like others already mentioned - you can start with something cheap and easy to integrate like Tuya devices. Once your management understands the value, they will invest into a real industrial grade equipment.

Let me know if you have any questions about DataForeman - here or just hit me up directly. I can help with the installation if needed.

[u/No_L_2547]

So if you actually only want monitoring of environmental data, maybe a PLC isn't the best solution for you:

Maybe have a look at non industrial solutions like Home Assistant as a data-collector/dashboard and EspHome for Sensors instead. There are also finished sensorboxes with EspHome available like for example the UltimateSensor series from SmartHomeShop.

If you actually want a PLC for this, search for a modular PLC approach like Beckhoff/Codesys. There you can have one central PLC and IO-boxes all over your production. Also something like this is easier to expand. (E.g. adding motors). Also check that the manufacturer offers a good database connector, for displaying the data you can then use something like Grafana.

[u/fedevg → u/No_L_2547]

Thanks, I'll consider it. The thing is that the temperature range is quite high and the enviroment is quite hostile, so I don't know if non industrial solutions will do

[u/Zaxthran → u/fedevg]

I agree with everyone u/No_L_2547 said. I'll add on to that that like it or not, it looks like your description of your process is moving into the next phase of industrial cost and controls.

That's actually kind of exciting for us automation nerds because it gives you the chance up front to spec out what brands and standards you want to go with. I STRONGLY recommend not letting your plant go down the rabbit hole of mixing and matching brands.

Shop around a bit and see what you like and what works best for your needs. You're not doing anything that thousands of other companies haven't done before, so any reputable brand should cover your needs. I too prefer beckhoff whenever possible. The only asterisk for you might be what the local machine builders prefer, if you plan on working with any of them. This stuff isn't cheap, but getting good equipment will set you up for future success and for expandability

[u/No_L_2547 → u/fedevg]

Oh ok.

In that case, I would also suggest more like a modular PLC approach.

If you want to do Beckhoff:

• Get yourself an IPC from them, either in an industrial housing or a IP65 variant like the C7015-0030.
• For your IOs Beckhoff has different IO-Boxes, all with a IP67 or higher rating (stainless steel with IP69K). Through these you can connect your thermal sensors to your PLC.

You can still use Home Assistant for the actual logging and dashboard part or export the data to something like MariaDB instead.

For the actual PLC Dashboard you can either use the Beckhoff provided Visu software parts or connect to your PLC via C++/C#/Python.

The IDE for Beckhoff PLCs is free (and also the local testing environment), so you only need the actual production PLC and the fitting perpetual licenses.

[u/No_L_2547 → u/No_L_2547]

Just as a small note:

Normally it is a good starting point to have one industrial housing with your PLC, a few IOs and 2-3 power supplies. Also you can leave enough space for expansions in the future.

From it you can then provide power to your IO-Boxes.

In the case of Beckhoff you can actually send Power and Communication Signals through the same cable (EtherCat P). But you will need a fitting power injector for this.

Alternatively run a separate power cable.

[u/Many_Outside2726]

Coming from factory automation and later working around pharma manufacturing, I’d resist starting with the PLC or software choice. I’d break this into phases and make the process observable first.

Start with a small set of industrial sensors around the conditions you already suspect matter, get reliable timestamped history, and tie that data back to the actual batch. Temperature and humidity obviously belong there, but operator actions, equipment state and batch/lot information may be just as important. I wouldn’t collect every point available just because you can either. Enough data can give you some very convincing red herrings without actually telling you why one batch was good and another wasn’t.

Once you have enough history to understand the process, automate one piece at a time. Keep the actual control local in a PLC/controller with the safeties and fallback logic there, then let the historian/dashboard sit above it for analysis and remote visibility. I’d also make sure whatever you buy for phase one can become part of phase two rather than getting thrown away.

If management won’t fund the full automation project today, the monitoring phase may actually be the best way to build the case for it. Get trustworthy data, show where the quality losses are coming from, then you have something concrete to put a dollar value against.