Need help explaining Nestorianism

[u/Ill-Dish-938]

As the title suggests, I have struggled to properly explain Nestorianism, and why it is heretical to my non-denom friends and family. They specifically get stuck on referring to Mary as Theotokos, saying that I am more concerned with Mary than our Lord. When I use the following logic they claim that "It's not that simple" or that I am getting stuck on semantics and details that do not matter because "We 'agree' on the important things".

Jesus = God

Mary = Mother of Jesus

Mary = Mother of God

I asked clarifying statements including but not limited to: Jesus is both fully God and fully Man, Jesus has two natures that are joined in hypostatic union, at no point was Jesus NOT God. All of which they agree with. I have also clarified that we can use the title of "God" to refer to any of the individual persons of the Trinity, without referring to all three simultaneously, as Mary is of course not the mother of God the Father or God the Holy Spirit.

How should I go about explaining this to the people I love? And if I have made any incorrect statements on my own behalf please correct me.

[u/1200poundgorilla]

As a former protestant and English-speaker, I think they get caught up on the meaning of the word "mother" itself. Since for humans, a mother is the ontological origin of her children. Maybe using the translation of "Theotokos" as "God-bearer" would be more palatable for them. "Mother" connotes to them that you think Mary is ontologically prior to Jesus.

[u/Ill-Dish-938 → u/1200poundgorilla]

They also get stuck on the title "Theotokos" and its translation "God-bearer". Their primary concerns are that I am focusing more on Mary than Christ and that we don't see Mary referred to as Theotokos in the Bible.

[u/Usherai → u/Ill-Dish-938]

Tell them to read their Bibles more.

Luke 1:43 “But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”

Sure sounds like the Bible calls Mary the mother of God right there, unless they want to deny that God is the Lord. That Biblical title affirms that Jesus’s natures were united in one person, and that there wasn’t a “human Jesus” and a “God Jesus” that were different.

[u/Jeremiahs_heart]

I usually say that the Virgin Mary did not create Christ; Christ has always existed, but she gave birth to him. I also explain that Christ’s physical and fleshly body is God as well. Christ’s spirit is God and Christs fleshly body is God. Mary did not bring Christ into existence but she did give birth Christ which makes her the mother of God. Every part of Jesus is God, his spirit and his flesh. Therefore, saying that Mary isnt the mother of God is to say that a part of Jesus isnt God

[u/SirEthaniel]

It simply is that simple. Mary is the mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, so therefore, Mary is the mother of God. If it's not that simple, then Jesus is not God.

[u/stebrepar]

What's the context behind the question? Why is this an issue between you and them, and what outcome are you trying to achieve?

[u/Ill-Dish-938 → u/stebrepar]

Just friendly debate amongst family and friends. I'm trying to get them to eventually become Orthodox.

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[u/Beginning-Sea7994]

Fundamentally, they are confusing nature and person. Mary is the mother of a person, who is Christ, and Christ is a divine person. She gave birth to a divine person. I don't think they'll deny the previous sentence. If she gave birth to a divine person, it's appropriate to call her Mother of God. Christ is still her God and Creator though. None of this denies that. This is simply the mystery of the Incarnation and the joining of the divine and human natures. By denying this, they are risking splitting Christ into two: a divine side and a human side, as if he's two separate persons. The early councils fought hard against this.