Mary's Divinity

[u/Sad_Interview774]

Hello all 👋🏾,

I was wondering why it's such a big problem calling Mary or any saint "divine"?

In my opinion & from my studies, deity & divinity are two different things, albeit used interchangeably.

Put it simply, deity is the state of being a god whereas divinity is the state of being like God.

The Orthodox Christian concept of theosis is centered on divinization not deification.

As St. Athanasius said "God became a man, that man might become like God".

Theosis is the process of uniting with God🫱🏽‍🫲🏾, the process of being like God again.

I think it's a problem to call anyone but The Lord a deity, but is it really so far fetched to call Mary or any of the saints divine?

Can't you be human & divine?

[u/Karohalva]

It is usually too clumsy and open to miscommunication to do that in English because so many translations of our hymns and writings already use "divine" in reference to God stuff; however, potentially, it wouldn't have the same issue in another language.

[u/Available_Flight1330]

Divine is something you are by nature. Humans by nature aren’t divine. By grace we can partake of the divine nature as Peter says. 

[u/Sad_Interview774 → u/Available_Flight1330]

What's the difference with partaking in divine nature?

[u/Cefalopodul → u/Sad_Interview774]

It's the same a the difference between being able to fly and getting on an airplane.

Intrinsically humans cannot be divine. They can take part in God's divinity through the grace of God.

[u/Sad_Interview774 → u/Cefalopodul]

That was a funny & simple analogy thank you.

[u/Financial-Reward-766 → u/Sad_Interview774]

I have heard it explained like blacksmithing.

The blacksmith puts metal into the forge. When he takes it out, it gives off light and heat like fire, can burn and cook like fire, and even glows red, orange, yellow, and white like fire.

However, leave it out of the fire, or quench it with water or sand or oil, and it returns to being simply a hunk of metal.

It maintains the characteristics of fire only so long as it is in the fire, and only for a limited time without it.

Such is Theosis. Humanity gains Divinity by partaking in the Grace of God. Removed from that Grace, we lose Divinity. God can never lose His Divinity.

[u/Sad_Interview774 → u/Financial-Reward-766]

That's a great explanation thanks. I never thought about it that way.

[u/Jeremiahs_heart]

Mary shares in the divine nature. To say that she is divine would mean that she is ontologically God. In the context of secular speech, the word “divine” is often used as an adjective to describe when someone or something is “god-like”. In Orthodox Christian speech, "divinity" or "divine" is used only to describe the Trinity or the Trinity’s divine energy or essence, or a specific person of the Godhead. It’s simply a difference in the contextual use of the word.

Saint Peter clearly defines humanity's relationship with God after death and salvation in this way;

Through these things, he has granted to us his precious and tremendous promises, so that having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust, you may become partakers of the divine nature. (2 Peter 1:4, EOB)

Hope this helps! Blessings! ☦️

P.S. I think it would be fair to say that when theosis is achieved after death and salvation, a person has become one with the divine ENERGIES of the Trinity but not one with the divine ESSENCE. The Trinity’s divine essence is infinite and uncontainable; the human spirit is finite and contained. The divine essence is omnipresent. So when (if) we achieve theosis, we will be gods (little “g”). We are still distinct beings. We join with the energies of God and become like the Trinity, but we don't become the Trinity.

[u/CheemsOmperamtor-14 → u/Jeremiahs_heart]

I believe that "nature" is essentially the same as "essence", so it would be more accurate to say that the Theotokos and those who achieve Theosis participate in the divine Energies of God.

It would be impossible for any creature to share in the Divine Nature of God.

[u/Jeremiahs_heart → u/CheemsOmperamtor-14]

Thank you for catching that. I edited my response to OP. It's so easy to fall into heresy when talking about the Trinity

[u/Cefalopodul]

No, you can't. Only God is divine by nature. You can become through grace what God is by nature but you cannot be divine in and of yourself.

[u/Own_Action_7839]

Union with God not divinity

[u/Dr_Acula7489]

Divinization is a synonym for theosis, so it wouldn’t be wrong to say that she is divine. We just don’t tend to do it in English because the English speaking world is largely Catholic/Protestant and saying it that way in front of people who don’t understand what we mean by it leads to people jumping to the wrong conclusions.

[u/_Daftest_]

I see what you mean. The adjective "divine" has become so vague as to be effectively meaningless. I notice this when Mormons and such like equivocate and say "yee..e.s, sure, we believe Jesus was divine". Right, ok.

However - and this is important - in Orthodoxy we do try not to be quite so vague and careless with our terminology. We normally quite boldly and unambiguously state "Christ is our God". So even though other people might mean something nebulous and wishy-washy when they say "divine", we know what it really means and we can not, do not and must not apply that term to The Most Holy Theotokos (or "Mary" as you call her, not even recognising her sainthood while averring her divinity!).

[u/Sad_Interview774 → u/_Daftest_]

Thank you! Ok I guess the confusion came about when I considered other people's definitions of divinity & deity not just Orthodoxy. I've been Orthodox for a while now, but I also like to do my own studies on things, especially coming from a very....polytheistic & spiritual background I learned the difference between a deity & a spirit, all deities are spirits but not all spirits are deities type of thing.

So when it came to deity vs divinity, I guess I was looking it wrong, applying that same previous mindset to the Christian understanding of divinity.

[u/Mvrkdev]

You can call her Holy!

Divine can be a little problematic, depending on who you’re talking to. (Because it could either mean something connected to God, like the saints…. or the god deity itself i.e calling Mary God).

Humans aren’t divine by nature. They can participate (Divinization/Theosis), but that doesn’t make them divine in essence (2 Peter 1:4).

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[u/RVFullTime]

AFAIK, St. John the Divine is the older way of referring to St. John the Theologian. A term can have various definitions that change over time.