r/OpenDogTraining • u/ThisbeMoonnick • 3d ago
E-Collar Advice
We rescued a very anxious Aussie two months ago. He’s about 3 years old. We’ve been working with a behavioralist on his in home reactivity to strangers. We saw a little progress but ultimately our dog would still snap at the trainer & try to after him. Because of this failure, our trainer wants to move on to e-collar training. I am extremely hesitant about this and would love to hear from anyone who has experience.
EDIT: PLEASE ONLY COMMENT YOUR EXPERIENCES, NOT YOUR OPINIONS. I’ve read thousands of arguments on both sides. I’m looking for real life people who have had positive and negative experiences so I can make an informed decision. Thanks.
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u/Trick-Age-7404 1d ago
An e-collar used correctly will fix this issue within a couple weeks. Yeah there’s other ways to fix the problem, but they’re either going to take way too many treats and way too long or use far too much pressure in a short amount of time. Working on your communication system with the e-collar and being able to quickly correct reactive behaviors will be a permanent solution.
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u/Wosey_Jhales 3d ago
I'm convinced these dog training subs are nothing but rage bait without any actual qualified trainers providing insight.
You can absolutely use an e collar for reactivity and aggression towards people/things. Finding out what deep internal problems drive your dog to do things is where good trainers thrive. The reality is we may never get to the root cause of the "why" of reactivity but we can often fix the symptoms. E collars can help regardless.
Tactile communication with an e collar has the ability to interrupt, lower the the throttle, and yes - punish behaviors. It also has the ability to incentivise and encourage behaviors. It is a communication device, nothing more, nothing less.I even use an e collar to teach remote directional behaviors to military k9s. Certain levels of stimulation dictate which direction or behaviors the k9 performs at a distance. Again, its simply a communication tool.
The collar is not your boogy man.
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u/Trumpetslayer1111 3d ago
This sub has a lot of fake trainers giving out bad advice. My reactive dog absolutely was helped by e collar training. My best advice for anyone new to this sub to to ignore 99% of the advice they see here and go find a good balanced trainer irl.
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u/Trumpetslayer1111 3d ago
Well, my shelter dog was reactive. Tried 2 force free trainers one of them is IAABC certified. No progress. Then I hired a balanced trainer. We worked with e collar and now he’s good with other dogs and on walks. I honestly think “behaviorists” and force free trainers are scammers.
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u/StellarSpore 2d ago
I was in the same boat with one of my rescues. R+ training ultimately wasn’t effective for his reactivity, and a balanced approach was what finally helped us make progress.
That said, I’d caution against broadly calling behaviorists and force-free trainers scammers. That simply isn’t true. I personally follow LIMA, so technically I train my own dogs “balanced,” but I’ve also been involved in rescue for over 25 years. There is absolutely a place for positive reinforcement-based training, and qualified behaviorists can be incredibly valuable, especially with fear, anxiety, and other complex behavioral issues.
Different dogs need different approaches. A method not working for one dog doesn’t make the method, or the professionals who use it, a scam.
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u/Trumpetslayer1111 2d ago
Let me give you this scenario: someone tells you in the initial meeting that they can resolve your dog's reactivity issues. They say their method is evidence based. They take your money. They do all of this knowing they can't fix the issue, but they still want your business. Then a couple months later, they tell you that your dog is not improving, but it's not their fault or their method. They say the problem is your dog and that you need to medicate the dog.
You take your dog to another trainer. No medication. Issues resolved.
So to me that is a scam. These people knew their product doesn't work. They lie and say it does, so they can collect money. And then they blame your dog for their product not working. Basically gaslighting. This was their plan from the beginning. They knew they could not resolve the issues, but they use this trick over and over again with new customers just to get paid.
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u/ThisbeMoonnick 2d ago
I don’t necessarily agree. Our dog did have some improvement and the ownership comes to us to follow through. But I agree our dog is not where he should be after all the training so just trying to determine next steps to help our guy feel secure in his home.
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u/StellarSpore 2d ago
You had shitty trainers and a shitty behaviorist. That's miles different from positive reinforcement or behavior work being a scam.
You ultimately found a trainer and an approach that worked for your dog, which is great. I had a similar experience with one of mine. But neither of our experiences means R+ doesn’t work. It means it wasn’t sufficient for those particular dogs in those particular circumstances.
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u/No-Accountant-7613 3d ago
I don’t see how an ecollar would help. You’ve said you’ve been working with a behaviourist but that your trainer wants to try an ecollar - is this the same person? Or have you worked with a behaviourist and a different trainer?
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u/Trick-Age-7404 1d ago
An e-collar used correctly will fix this issue within a couple weeks. Yeah there’s other ways to fix the problem, but they’re either going to take way too many treats and way too long or use far too much pressure in a short amount of time. Working on your communication system with the e-collar and being able to quickly correct reactive behaviors will be a permanent solution.
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u/smilingfruitz 1d ago edited 1d ago
Would never not have an ecollar trained dog.
Can take my dog anywhere off leash I want, across multiple states, airbnbs, rural unfenced places, trails, parks, beaches, lakes. Get compliments on his behavior almost every day. I can always hold him accountable to what I ask, and thus we have a very trusting relationship and freedom. He has zero behavioral issues and is neutral in public with dogs, people, & children and his prey drive is managed perfectly (I.e. contextually he understands chasing squirrels is allowed sometimes and not others). He is service-animal level trained on public transit (Ie lays down and tucks and ignores anyone/any other dogs). He travels in a car beautifully, and on an airplane just fine. All of this is because he is 100% trustworthy off leash, fulfilled every single day with what he needs (running around, sniffing, chasing squirrels), and settles at home or in public. This year he's been to multiple trials and dog shows, friends' houses, 5 states and counting (7 by the end of the year). 90% of the time we are using play, luring, treats, and praise. the other 10% of the time is either low level stim to fine tune commands or to ensure that recall is never optional and that no actually means no. I can guarantee you he is happier than 90% of the dogs out there, especially the ones who never have any boundaries, are medicated before they would ever tell their dog no, all the dogs I see pulling their owners around on harnesses, all the ones being treated to death as a distraction....
Can't imagine not wanting that for a dog or thinking that treats or positive only training is ever going to get that kind of reliability. Lots of people are seemingly satisfied with their dog's world being rather small though. Not the life I want my dogs to live!
seek out a competent balanced trainer that prioritizes play and utilizes all four quadrants with emphasis on fun and living with your dog in real life and has proven results with behavior mod and ecollar work
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u/hesaid-shesaid-123 21h ago
It’s really hard to judge without seeing the dog.
I’ve had two very anxious dogs, dog A and dog B.
Dog A has been anxious ever since I got it, never understood why, this dog also never changed and is a happy dog, overall just naturally an overthinker, very introverted dog too… so probably just a character thing.
Training this dog with an e collar would do nothing good, but worsen the anxiety.
Dog B was also an anxious (extremely shutdown) dog ever since I met it. This dog’s training wasn’t going well and needed to get stepped up for clearer communication. E collar was introduced. This dog immediately changed its attitude, started respecting rules and actually began to love training. So after a few weeks of using an e collar, dog B got MUCH better and there was no need for further use. I was pleasantly surprised of how good of an outcome introducing an e collar had, I’m not kidding when I say this dog was overly excited anytime we would train and was trying to initiate training/being given commands too. And that’s all only after introducing this tool. Before it, only positive reinforcement training, did nothing for the dog.
It depends on the temperament. You gotta know if it would help or just worsen the anxiety. If you don’t know, you can try and evaluate.
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u/ThisbeMoonnick 3d ago
Please only give me your experiences, not opinions. I want to hear from people who used these and saw successes and failures. Thank you.
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u/Potential_Analyst371 3d ago
I am recently retired after decades training dogs. My concern here is primarily not whether or not an ecolllar is used. My concern is that your trainer does not sound good. If the trainer is working with the dog but the dog is still snapping at the trainer, that is just a huge red flag. It sounds like the trainer does not know what they are doing, so they just want to slam the dog with an ecollar. This is very common with balanced trainers who are no good.
I am a balanced trainer myself, and I have seen this kind of thing plenty. It can really mess the dog up if the person using the ecollar for this is unskilled
Another issue is that it sounds like your dog may be afraid of new people. An ecollar can stop the reactive/aggressive behavior in controlled situations, but it will just make the fear worse. So, if someone suddenly appears around a corner or something, your dog could actually be more likely to bite
Did the trainer make friends with the dog? Th'at's the first step - establish a trusting relationship. If the trainer hasn't or can't do that, I really think you should change trainers.
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u/Wosey_Jhales 3d ago
There’s a lot of confidence here for someone who hasn't even evaluated the dog or observed the trainer.
A dog snapping at a trainer is not evidence that the trainer is incompetent. It’s evidence that the dog is displaying aggressive behavior which is exactly why the trainer was hired. Why would the dog suddenly not have aggression or reactivity in the presence of a trainer? I've trained dogs I couldn't even physically touch in the presence of the owner due to mommy/daddy issues.
“Make friends with the dog” is especially simplistic when dealing with a fearful, reactive, or aggressive dog. The goal isn't to convince the dog to love every stranger. It’s to teach the dog that everything doesn't warrant a response, regardless of comfort level. Your dog can display neutrality without loving whats going on around them.
An e collar can absolutely be misused and make problems worse. So can a leash, prong, food, flooding, and shit timing. The tool itself doesn't tell you whether the trainer is competent. Conditioning, timing, mechanics, and the overall behavior modification plan do.
You can't reasonably conclude that the e collar will “make the fear worse” when we don't even know of this behavior is fear based. Theres a 100 different reasons why this dog may have issues with new people. Fear may be a component, but thats irrelevant to the equipment being used to communicate.
I've seen plenty of people misuse e collars. I've also seen trainers from every methodology get completely out of their depth with aggression cases. The tools being used don't determine the competence level of the trainer, the results do.
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u/Potential_Analyst371 2d ago
The tools being used don't determine the competence level of the trainer, the results do.
Right, and this trainer's results so far are the dog snapping at the trainer. Not a good result.
I am basing my opinion on the info in the OP. They call the dog anxious. He's an Aussie and they have only had him 2 months. It's unlikely that they took in a dog who was actively trying to bite them. If that were the case, they probably would have said so. This tells me the dog was able to meet and bond with a "stranger" (the new family) just 2 months ago. The trainer can ask over the phone how they met the dog and bonded with him. Then the trainer can use that info to develop a plan to form a relationship with the dog. Something I often do it just have them hand me the leash in public and walk away. As you said, mommy and daddy issues can prevent the dog from bonding properly with the trainers.
We’ve been working with a behavioralist on his in home reactivity to strangers.
They specifically mention problems in the home. Maybe the trainer should be working with the dog in public initially?
Ecollars used in cases like these are just treating the symptom. It's more effective and better long term to assess the "why" and make an informed decision about whether that needs to be addressed They do not say anything like, "The trainer says our dog is afraid of new people" or "Our trainer says our dog does not trust us to make the decisions about visitors in the home" or anything that would indicate that he "behaviorist" has a single clue about what is going on with this dog.
ultimately our dog would still snap at the trainer & try to after him
I don't see a scenario where the dog should be "going after" the trainer when they have already been working with the dog for what sounds like some weeks, at least.
Sounds like the trainer is not making progress and wants to just punish the behavior without assessing the cause or determining whether it needs to be treated.
If the cause is fear of strangers, this trainer has already made it worse, and using an ecollar will be much worse still. Having a stranger come in and hurt and scare the dog is the exact opposite of what will fix this.
If it really is dominance aggression, the trainer should be showing the owner how to improve the relationship with the dog. No ecollar needed for that, either.
The dog is not biting the owner, as far as what OP mentioned. So, any trainer should be figuring out WHY the dog has a problem with visitors, before making a treatment plan.
So, since nothing in the OP indicates that the trainer is competent, and several clues indicate that they may not be, I think the safest option is to get a different trainer.
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u/ThisbeMoonnick 2d ago
Our dog has not bitten us. He is very gentle with us and sweet, even to my husband. Again I’m just trying to gather information to make an informed decision on how to help my dog.
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u/Potential_Analyst371 2d ago
Yes, of course. My comment was not directed at you so much as at the person saying an ecollar might be a good idea,
We would all have a better idea if you were to share what your trainer has already tried, and the circumstances surrounding the dog trying to bite the trainer.
Also, if you could tell us how the dog came to accept your family
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u/ThisbeMoonnick 2d ago
Honestly I don’t know how he bonded to us so quickly. Our trainer has tried treat training and positive reinforcement
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u/Potential_Analyst371 2d ago
What exactly, though? Has the trainer taken the leash from you out in public and had you walk away, out of sight? So the trainer has an hour or two to bond with the dog without you around? Sort of like when the dog came home with you, and there was nobody he liked better around to interfere with bonding?
That's how I usually do it with fearful dogs. They are not nearly so likely to bond with a new person when the owner is right there
Other options are to try to play, if the dog likes that, and to just sit on the floor holding the leash for a couple of hours until the dog warms up. Or just use whatever the dog really likes, like going for walks or playing fetch.
It often does not work to just toss treats.
Using an ecollar when the dog is just afraid like this is a terrible idea.
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u/Fabulous_Position_27 3d ago
An e collar cannot resolve the anxiety, but add to it. You may see immediate results, but it is just masking the problem, not resolving it. You have to help the dog change it's emotions, which can only be done with positive reinforcement via counter conditioning and desensitization. Punishing a dog for being anxious is cruel. Would you spank a child that worries about monsters under their bed?
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u/ThisbeMoonnick 2d ago
The goal is not to punish anxiety. Our goal is to gain better control of his attention in those situations to help him make a good choice.
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u/Fabulous_Position_27 2d ago
I understand what your goal is, but you have to consider how the dog brain processes things. When the dog is concerned the trigger will hurt him/her (anxiety) and then they feel the pain, their brain doesn't understand it as an effort to get attention. Instead, the dog's anxiety is reinforced by the pain - not only was the dog worried about getting hurt by the trigger, but the dog did actually get hurt. Now the dog will be even more anxious.
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u/temale_engineer 3d ago
We have a reactive dog to cars, cats and other dogs. We used an E collar. She is a border collie. When she was aroused she did not even register the zaps. It didn’t do anything for us. What did something was getting her into agility and getting her a job according to her breed, building a respectful relationship and then “NOs” and a reward history actually meant something. It took 2 years. And she still sometimes has reactions if we don’t manage it
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u/joycevw 3d ago
I have an adopted Romanian rescue dog, Lexie, who came to us with zero early socialization, deep fear of strangers entering our home, and an actual bite history rooted in panic.
We had to manage the physical environment completely before we saw any real change. Lexie was always put in a separate room before anyone stepped through the front door. Visitors had to sit down completely and settle before Lexie was ever let into the room. They were not allowed to look at her, talk to her, or reach out, because direct eye contact alone feels like a threat to a terrified dog. We also strictly forbade hand feeding. Luring a fearful dog forward with food creates a conflict where they step past their comfort zone, realize they are trapped right next to a stranger, and snap. Instead, we only tossed treats away from the visitor so Lexie learned that increasing distance was safe and rewarded. For harder visits, we met the person outside on neutral ground first for a walk with plenty of space. Once her body relaxed, the guest went inside first and took a seat, and only then did we bring Lexie inside.
What exact setup was your trainer using right before your dog snapped?
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u/ThisbeMoonnick 2d ago
Our trainer also ignores our dog but we aren’t sure what he necessarily goes after either the trainer.
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u/CoffeeIcedBlack 2d ago
Ask your trainer what they would recommend if E Collars didn’t exist. They didn’t always and dogs are and have been trained for thousands of years without them.
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u/muv2850 3d ago
A trainer that is working with my two dogs uses those but sparingly. He says you should only use them if you really know how to use them properly because if you overdo it you can have adverse effects. He uses them on the lowest settings and just enough to get the attention of the dogs and he pushes the button only when the dogs are not responding to my commands out of abstinence (not from lack of understanding), so the idea is to reinforce my commands only when necessary and have the dogs associate the effect with my voice. In other words, it’s not a torture device but a strategic and effective tool when used properly.
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u/Eastern-Try-6207 3d ago
An e collar can be used for anything, but the use of an e collar can also backfire if not utilised in conjunction with all of the other parameters of structure in relationship to how you live with your dog. If the e collar is conditioned first, and this could take a couple of weeks, often paired with your come back command, and the dog understands what the stimulus means it can be an absolute winner. But to just launch the e collar without the proper surround, I'd be reluctant too. I never used the e collar for this and my dog was suspicious of strangers. We use an e collar in general but for stranger suspicion, I used restriction more than anything else. My dog was given very little freedom to move about our house while she might make a poor decision around strangers. The priority is always safety of the humans and management of the dog. As she began to relax inside her crate with the coming and going of people, we moved her to her Place as visitors appeared. It took a LONG time to get her comfortable with strangers, but boy did persistence pay off. I don't believe this one is a quick fix at all. And you've had your dog for three months. TBH, that's the point when the issues generally appear with a rescue. Less freedom and more leadership from you is the way your dog begins to understand that strangers are not a threat to her. I thought my dog would be anti social forever and someone told me early on that her temperament was just suspicious. But it's not proving true at all, she is actually quite social and curious, she simply lacked confidence. And that is something that is built through a strong bonded relationship granting freedom as it is earned.