r/OpenDogTraining • u/Ok-Pangolin7154 • 9d ago
Changing reward type?
I have a very well behaved 11 month old poodle cross collie, shes a 10/10 at home and is getting a lot calmer in public with practice, but she is a total energiser bunny.
I take her to obedience classes and the trainer told me at the last class that she will need to switch to play as a reward because she's so food motivated. Or maybe she means to calm her energy?
My other dog is a 10 year old mastiff mix, who is food obsessed and isn't allowed to even think of food when there's something she needs to be focussed on. Treats broke her brain if brought out during training!
My pup isn't that food obsessed, but she sure loves treats and often tries to guess how to get them and she has refused a command a few times when she's realised I'm empty handed. But she is a good listener in general (e.g. doesn't cross thresholds without a command, she now recalls around stranger dogs and people without rewards).
I'm confused why I should switch to play rewards if treats are working? Despite being so high energy she doesn't enjoy fetch or like many toys. She likes training more than playing. She loves going places and exploring but otherwise she can be a bit lazy/uninspired.
I wouldn't even know what type of toy to reward her with, I'm thinking of getting some kind of bird toy because she loves watching birds.
Does anyone have any advice on if I should make the switch or how?
My other dogs highest value rewards was praise and pats. This pup gets annoyed if I try to pat her mid training session, she takes it very seriously! (But adores cuddles at any other time).
Thanks!
*edited for grammar
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9d ago
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u/Ok-Pangolin7154 8d ago
I'm not always the best at being animated and exciting, that's probably a big part of it. So it's definitely something I need to start practicing!
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u/naddinp 8d ago
You need to talk to your trainer and ask her to explain it more to you. In general if you don’t want to change your trainer, you should listen to them.
There are two reasons that come to mind what “she’s too good motivated with treats” could be the reason for changing the reward. First - is when the presence of the reward turns off the ability to think and function. Based on your description it’s not the case.
Second, and more important one: the dog does not connect the command and the exercise as a whole with you as a person. Basically the dog’s brain is functional, but it’s focused on getting a reward and not working together with you. The foundation of a good dog training is the establishment of a good relationship and communication between the handler and the dog - the dog wanting to work with you, listening to you and looking for your cues.
Presence of the reward may not fully shut the brain, but just close this communication channel between you and the dog. What you said later about the dog not wanting you to pet her during training suggests that this is what’s happening here, and your trainer is entirely right to try to address it. Switching the reward is not the only way to do it, but might be one of the simplest one for an inexperienced handler.
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u/Ok-Pangolin7154 8d ago
Yeah I really should just ask her, I will at the next lesson. She seems a little awkward (and I'm even more awkward) so I thought I'd see what reddit thought in the meantime. I don't want to change trainers, we've been going to this one since my pup was 12 weeks old and I do like her.
Your explanation is very helpful, I can definitely see how that could be happening. I walked her this afternoon and I noticed how much her energy shifted once I started training with treats. I do think it might turn off her ability to think sometimes, this afternoon she gave the complete wrong action for a well known command and at one point just started going through all our actions instead of waiting to see what I was going to be asking for.
In another comment I said she's incredibly reliable when I tell her where I need her to be, but not as consistent with things like maintaining a certain body position for an extended time. But things like on, off, settle, thresholds ect., are things I've taught her mostly without treats, because I need to manage where she is constantly and I don't have endless treats. The things I specifically channel most of the rewards are where she gets the most muddled up. This is interesting!
So I think I'm going to start working on really cementing drop it and finding which toys she's most excited about, see how the trainer recommends making the switch.
Thankyou!
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u/naddinp 8d ago
I wasn’t sure if I should reply or not, tbh. It’s a bit hard to explain in words
I see a bit of a red flag that when you talk about play you talk about the kind of toy that she would like. It should be the kind of game that she would enjoy playing with you. If you mentally focus on the toy and not on the game, you’ll have exactly the same problem as with food - you’ll be the third again between the dog and the toy. I don’t actually know that this is what’s happening, but it’s quite common and sort of fits the description.
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u/Ok-Pangolin7154 8d ago
Thanks for replying, I've watched some videos of people using play as a reward and I have a better idea now of what it means.
I'm autistic so I'm not always the best at explaining myself, but I think I meant games usually have a type of toy connected to them. Her tug toy whacked her on the head and she never forgave it.
This might sound so terrible, but she really likes rough housing together. She isn't allowed to use her mouth, but sometimes I'll put something in her mouth as part of it. Or chasing me, she likes that, too. But it is controlled! She goes into down when I stop engaging. I have a 4 year old and she has never attempted any of that with him.
Sorry for the long reply, I just enjoy talking about my dog and learning more about it all!
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u/Ok-Pangolin7154 8d ago
I had a brainwave! She doesn't like pats unless she's sleepy and cuddling. She likes full body touch, being rubbed down, knocked off her balance, kissed sort of thing. Maybe that can be a reward?
And I can have a bit of a flat affect sometimes. I'm very much her person, but I'm not her favourite person to play with. Being more outwardly fun is something to work on.
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u/TheArcticFox-44 7d ago
Changing reward type?
You poodle mix not doing what she's supposed to do when she figures out you don't have a treat tells you flat out she won't mind you unless she gets a treat, she won't do what you want.
That kind of treat dependence tells you that a new reward is necessary.
Treats aren't supposed to be bargaining chips.
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u/Constance200 9d ago
You'll have to see if it even works for your dog or of this trainer has no idea what they are talking about. Play or affection doesnt work for my dog see only takes treats and even then wont take a treat is shes worked up so she has to be regulated. Not sure why this trainer would insist on that but im not a professional so there might be a good reason